471 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Arkatrex, on 24 June 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

Rotten scum. No more to say about it.

i told the truth, i am sure you don't want to hear it. but that doesn't matter.

The actual generation of gamers are silly customers which don't need to think about anything, don't want to honor the hard work which includes coding, design and publish games.

but you want it all without spend any ******* cent. But sorry, didn't know that you're all omniscient guys.

why do you not hire @ PGI and do their job???? useless victims...really.

[General Taskeen]

Fixed heat thresholds and a better overhaul of the heatsinks will bring better balance first. It must become Mech Warrior Socialist Heat Thresholds for the better of all Mech Warrior kind.

[Jman5]

Instead of doing a knee-jerk reaction that everything is terrible, I'll go down the list of weapons:

Balistics
Machine Guns: Fine
AC/2: Fine
AC/5: Fine
UAC5: Fine
AC/10: Fine
LB-10X: Fine
AC/20: Fine alone, but with two, I wonder if it's balanced.
Gauss: Fine, but needs Sound/Shake adjustment to be more noticeable

Energy

Small Laser: Fine
Medium Laser: I actually think medium lasers are borderline imbalanced. They are very strong for 1 ton.
Large Laser: Fine
Pulse lasers: Need work. They are heavier, hotter, and shorter range alternatives.
ER Large Laser: Fine
Flamer: I can't get the heat to build up on enemy mechs for the life of me. Either the heat mechanic is broken or I'm doing it wrong.
PPC: When boated over 2 it causes real problems. I actually think the minimum range should be extended to start at 100m
ER PPC: This is a problem weapon beyond simply boating. It needs more penalties at brawl range.

Missiles

LRMs: Fine.
Streaks: Needs to core less
SRMs: It's either the hit registration or the damage itself that needs fixing. They don't do enough damage.

Results:

Weapons that are Fine: 14
Weapons I'm unsure about: 1
Weapons that are not Fine: 12

So, in my opinion, more weapons are fine than imbalanced. Of those I feel need work, most are on the table to be adjusted. So I voted that it's progressing in the right direction. PPC/ER-PPC are probably the biggest issue at the moment that's screwing everything up. The rest are really relatively minor by comparison.

I think it's important to put the weapons in perspective. Yes there are problems, but it's not endemic to every weapon. A few just need some adjustments. (I just wish they would freaking hurry up)

Edited by Jman5, 24 June 2013 - 09:02 AM.

[Lostdragon]

Jman5, on 24 June 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

Instead of doing a knee-jerk reaction that everything is terrible, I'll go down the list of weapons:

Balistics
Machine Guns: Fine
AC/2: Fine
AC/5: Fine
UAC5: Fine
AC/10: Fine
AC/20: Fine alone, but with two, I wonder if it's balanced.
Gauss: Fine, but needs Sound/Shake adjustment to be more noticeable

Energy

Small Laser: Fine
Medium Laser: I actually think medium lasers are borderline imbalanced. They are very strong for 1 ton.
Large Laser: Fine
Pulse lasers: Need work. They are heavier, hotter, and shorter range alternatives.
ER Large Laser: Fine
Flamer: I can't get the heat to build up on enemy mechs for the life of me. Either the heat mechanic is broken or I'm doing it wrong.
PPC: When boated over 2 it causes real problems. I actually think the minimum range should be extended to start at 100m
ER PPC: This is a problem weapon beyond simply boating. It needs more penalties at brawl range.

Missiles

LRMs: Fine.
Streaks: Needs to core less
SRMs: It's either the hit registration or the damage itself that needs fixing. They don't do enough damage.

Results:

Weapons that are Fine: 13
Weapons I'm unsure about: 1
Weapons that are not Fine: 12

So, in my opinion, more weapons are fine than imbalanced. Of those I feel need work, most are on the table to be adjusted. So I voted that it's progressing in the right direction.

I think it's important to put the weapons in perspective. Yes there are problems, but it's not endemic to every weapon. A few just need some adjustments. (I just wish they would freaking hurry up)

You did not list the LBX 10 and it is definitely not fine. I also disagree with your assessment that all other ballistics are fine. AC5 and 10 and MGs are just not very good compared to other weapons of equivalent weight. The opportunity cost for them is very high.

[FupDup]

Lostdragon, on 24 June 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

You did not list the LBX 10 and it is definitely not fine. I also disagree with your assessment that all other ballistics are fine. AC5 and 10 and MGs are just not very good compared to other weapons of equivalent weight. The opportunity cost for them is very high.

Additionally, the SL seems to be slightly underloved. I personally think that a range increase to 180m optimal and 360m maximum would help out. I also think his assessment of the ML being IMBA is a bit off. It's a jack of all trades for sure, but it's also a master of none as well (gets beaten by dedicated short range and long range weapons). AC/2 could probably use a heat reduction (because low-alpha DPS is unimpressive, especially at such high heat levels).

Edited by FupDup, 24 June 2013 - 09:03 AM.

[tenderloving]

Jman5, on 24 June 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

Instead of doing a knee-jerk reaction that everything is terrible, I'll go down the list of weapons:

Balistics
Machine Guns: Fine HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
AC/2: Fine
AC/5: Fine
UAC5: Fine
AC/10: Fine Yeah I see these in every game.
AC/20: Fine alone, but with two, I wonder if it's balanced.
Gauss: Fine, but needs Sound/Shake adjustment to be more noticeable

Energy

Small Laser: Fine
Medium Laser: I actually think medium lasers are borderline imbalanced. They are very strong for 1 ton. This is very telling of your understanding of balance.
Large Laser: Fine
Pulse lasers: Need work. They are heavier, hotter, and shorter range alternatives. Agree
ER Large Laser: Fine
Flamer: I can't get the heat to build up on enemy mechs for the life of me. Either the heat mechanic is broken or I'm doing it wrong.
PPC: When boated over 2 it causes real problems. I actually think the minimum range should be extended to start at 100m
ER PPC: This is a problem weapon beyond simply boating. It needs more penalties at brawl range.

Missiles

LRMs: Fine.
Streaks: Needs to core less
SRMs: It's either the hit registration or the damage itself that needs fixing. They don't do enough damage.

Results:

Weapons that are Fine: 13
Weapons I'm unsure about: 1
Weapons that are not Fine: 12

So, in my opinion, more weapons are fine than imbalanced. Of those I feel need work, most are on the table to be adjusted. So I voted that it's progressing in the right direction. PPC/ER-PPC are probably the biggest issue at the moment that's screwing everything up. The rest are really relatively minor by comparison.

I think it's important to put the weapons in perspective. Yes there are problems, but it's not endemic to every weapon. A few just need some adjustments. (I just wish they would freaking hurry up)

1. You didn't mention LBX, which is so broken that you didn't even remember to put it in your list.
2. A difference of 1 weapon between "fine" and "not fine" should be a red flag to you. That's terrible.
3. Machine guns are fine? Really?
4. You lost your remaining cred when you said Medium Lasers are imbalanced. Nobody in their right mind can or will complain about medium lasers. They are perfectly "meh" weapons in every regard, which means they are exactly where they need to be.

Edited by tenderloving, 24 June 2013 - 09:06 AM.

[General Taskeen]

MG's are not fine actually.
SL not fine.
LRMs not fine, do you use an LRM5 Jman?

The problem with streaks isn't that they core, it is that they autobot aim.

UAC/5 is not fine, it is rolling dice mechanics and double-shot shells that will cause massive problems later. Full-Damage AC shots need to go, so either AC's or UAC's need a revamp.

So that's already -4+ from your list. Plus you did not list NARC or LB 10-X, both useless. ECM is also not fine. That's a total of 19 or more things that are not fine.

Edited by General Taskeen, 24 June 2013 - 09:09 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Roland, on 24 June 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

No. This is a mistaken impression.

The problem is not those builds. Those builds are merely symptoms of the problem.

The problem is that you can fire any number of weapons, and they will magically hit a singular point in space. This is what leads to the current metagame. It's exactly what has been the driving force in all competent mech design throughout the entire history of mechwarrior.

I understand that many people are afraid to deal with this core issue, but it's the real reason for the gameplay that you have now.

And that gameplay IS NOT NEW. It's exactly what we saw in prior incarnations of Mechwarrior. It's always been about putting together the biggest alpha strike you could, because the damage modeling in the game rewards being able to focus damage through a single panel.

Earlier in beta, there were some fools who disputed that this was the case. They said that their garbage mixed range/DPS configurations were effective in MWO. But they weren't. They just happened to be playing against other garbage players, giving them the mistaken illusion that those configurations were effective. In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. But as things progressed, it's gotten to the point where even the trash players now understand some of these basic fundamental aspects of mech design, and now yo finally see that essentially everyone has migrated to high alpha builds.. because those builds WILL ALWAYS BE BEST WHEN WEAPONS CONVERGE PERFECTLY. You can, potentially, run mixed range lances, if team coordination is well orchestrated, and if brawling weapons offer significant damage efficiency over long range mechs.. but those are some big caveats, and the latter isn't the case currently.

You either deal with this issue, or you get our current meta. Those are your options.

I don't really care either way. I can play with whatever the devs give me, but folks who argue that convergence isn't at the core of everything you see in the current metagame are either fools, liars, or both.

I have one caveat to offer. It's not just convergence. It's convergence + group fire and nothing to stop it.

If everyone had to chain-fire and there was no way (not eve with macros) to fire multiple weapons at once, convergence would be not an issue. You want the single weapon you fire to converge, because trying to set up an UI that can give you reasonable crosshair information for non-converging weapons can be... challenging.

If you want group-fire, convergence will lead to boating.
If you don't have group-fire, but have convergence, boating offers no substantial advantages.
If you don't have convergence, but have group-fire, boating offers no substantial advantages.

I am in favor of lowering the heat threshold and increasing the dissipation, but primarily because it also fixes other balancing issues (like stock mechs being more reasonably hot or cool), and it can address the "group fire + convergence" issue for some mechs - like those 4 PPC alpha boats. But it won't solve it for all (like the Dual Gauss Rifle mechs).

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 24 June 2013 - 09:14 AM.

[jakucha]

General Taskeen, on 24 June 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

Fixed heat thresholds and a better overhaul of the heatsinks will bring better balance first. It must become Mech Warrior Socialist Heat Thresholds for the better of all Mech Warrior kind.

Yeah, heat is probably the biggest balance issue right now as it affects every weapons for the most part. If we get that hammered down it'll be a lot easier to balance the rest.

[Lostdragon]

jakucha, on 24 June 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

Yeah, heat is probably the biggest balance issue right now as it affects every weapons for the most part. If we get that hammered down it'll be a lot easier to balance the rest.

Heat by itself is a temporary fix at best. What happens when there is a mech that can mount 3x Gauss Rifles? If you don't address the issue in at least two ways (heat, convergence, hard point limitations) then you won't solve anything long term.

[Jonny Taco]

Lostdragon, on 24 June 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

You did not list the LBX 10 and it is definitely not fine. I also disagree with your assessment that all other ballistics are fine. AC5 and 10 and MGs are just not very good compared to other weapons of equivalent weight. The opportunity cost for them is very high.

I strongly agree with you about this post in regards to the lbx 10.

As you stated, the LBX 10 is most certainly not fine. The -1 ton compared to the standard ac10 does not even close to make up for the "splashing" nature of its damage application. For the lbx 10 to ever serve any real purpose it's going to need to need to total more than 10 damage per volley. This can either be done by increasing the number of projectiles fired, or by increasing the damage each current projectile inflicts. If it were up to me I'd drop the projectile count to 5, tighten the spread a tiny bit, and increase the total damage to around 11...

[Lostdragon]

lartfor, on 24 June 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

I strongly agree with you about this post in regards to the lbx 10.

As you stated, the LBX 10 is most certainly not fine. The -1 ton compared to the standard ac10 does not even close to make up for the "splashing" nature of its damage application. For the lbx 10 to ever serve any real purpose it's going to need to need to total more than 10 damage per volley. This can either be done by increasing the number of projectiles fired, or by increasing the damage each current projectile inflicts. If it were up to me I'd drop the projectile count to 5, tighten the spread a tiny bit, and increase the total damage to around 11...

Or it could just work like it is supposed to and fire slugs as well as pellets. You use the slugs to get through armor and the pellets to destroy equipment.

[FupDup]

Lostdragon, on 24 June 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

Or it could just work like it is supposed to and fire slugs as well as pellets. You use the slugs to get through armor and the pellets to destroy equipment.

Smart people would just use slugs all the time because destroying a section > crit seeking.

[I3lackI2ogue]

Lostdragon, on 24 June 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

Or it could just work like it is supposed to and fire slugs as well as pellets. You use the slugs to get through armor and the pellets to destroy equipment.

that would require being able to mount and switch between ammo types, which im all for, i just think that to implement something like that requires competence, which at this point in time i am fairly convinced PGI lacks.

[Lostdragon]

FupDup, on 24 June 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

Smart people would just use slugs all the time because destroying a section > crit seeking.

Definitely true in the current build but they have mentioned increasing HP of internals to effectively buff crit seekers. I think there are ways to make it viable to use the pellets but if it shot both types of ammo now pellets would definitely not be used much.

[Lugh]

Only one thing needs to be done to fix Shutdown Warrior Online.

Internal damage applied to the three torsos and the head, on EVERY shutdown. You go over 100% 1 dmg Betty tells you Heat sink destroyed.
110% 2 dmg Betty tells you engine critical, heat sink destroyed.
120% 3 dmg and it gets worse with the potential to blow your engine being pretty well guaranteed at easy to achieve intervals.

140% heat (yes I have seen people shutdown for 10 second intervals) Pilot death. Pilot death detected shutting down.

[Jman5]

Haha, I assure you guys, I didn't skip the LB10-X on purpose. I just accidentally left it out when going down the list. I added it right after I realized the mistake, but apparently I didn't beat the responses. I've used it extensively pre-buff and post-buff and I think it's a lot better than many people realize. It's a nuanced weapon and most people don't really understand crit damage, so it's no surprise that many don't recognize it's value.

Lostdragon, on 24 June 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

You did not list the LBX 10 and it is definitely not fine. I also disagree with your assessment that all other ballistics are fine. AC5 and 10 and MGs are just not very good compared to other weapons of equivalent weight. The opportunity cost for them is very high.

That's fine if you disagree, these are all just my opinion.

General Taskeen, on 24 June 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

MG's are not fine actually.
SL not fine.
LRMs not fine, do you use an LRM5 Jman?

The problem with streaks isn't that they core, it is that they autobot aim.

UAC/5 is not fine, it is rolling dice mechanics and double-shot shells that will cause massive problems later. Full-Damage AC shots need to go, so either AC's or UAC's need a revamp.

So that's already -4+ from your list. Plus you did not list NARC or LB 10-X, both useless. ECM is also not fine. That's a total of 19 or more things that are not fine.

I think Machine Guns have been buffed enough to the point where they are fine. I think Small lasers have good DPS and heat for their weight.

I think what LRM 5s lack in firepower, they make up in other ways. For example, using them to force an enemy to drop down behind cover. He gets the incoming missile warning and he usually doesn't know whether it's 5 missiles or 45 missiles heading his way. They are good cover fire weapons.

I don't see UAC/5 as a problem right now. AC/5s are 1 ton lighter and 1 slot lower.

I didn't list NARC, TAG, or AMS because I don't put them in the same category as other weapons. If I did, I probably would put TAG and AMS as Fine and NARC as: undecided because frankly I don't know.

tenderloving, on 24 June 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

1. You didn't mention LBX, which is so broken that you didn't even remember to put it in your list.
2. A difference of 1 weapon between "fine" and "not fine" should be a red flag to you. That's terrible.
3. Machine guns are fine? Really?
4. You lost your remaining cred when you said Medium Lasers are imbalanced. Nobody in their right mind can or will complain about medium lasers. They are perfectly "meh" weapons in every regard, which means they are exactly where they need to be.

1. I actually edited lbx-10s into my post before you replied. I think it's fine.
2. I was justifying why I chose more weapons are fine than not fine. In response to the second poll question.
3. Yes really
4. The fact that they are used so ubiquitously on so many builds doesn't make you at least somewhat concerned? The fact that so many light weapons are deemed bad because they tend to be compared with the medium laser. Perhaps it's not the light weapons which are bad, but the medium laser is a touch too good for it's weight. When a weapon is "the correct choice" for so many builds, I start to get concerned.

Edited by Jman5, 24 June 2013 - 09:48 AM.

[Lostdragon]

Jman5, on 24 June 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

Haha, I assure you guys, I didn't skip the LB10-X on purpose. I just accidentally left it out when going down the list. I added it right after I realized the mistake, but apparently I didn't beat the responses. I've used it extensively pre-buff and post-buff and I think it's a lot better than many people realize. It's a nuanced weapon so it's no surprise that many don't recognize it's value.


That's fine if you disagree, these are all just my opinion.


I think Machine Guns have been buffed enough to the point where they are fine. I think Small lasers have good DPS and heat for their weight.

I think what LRM 5s lack in firepower, they make up in other ways. For example, using them to force an enemy to drop down behind cover. He gets the incoming missile warning and he usually doesn't know whether it's 5 missiles or 45 missiles heading his way. They are good cover fire weapons.

I don't see UAC/5 as a problem right now. AC/5s are 1 ton lighter and 1 slot lower.

I didn't list NARC, TAG, or AMS because I don't put them in the same category as other weapons. If I did, I probably would put TAG and AMS as Fine and NARC as: undecided because frankly I don't know.


1. I actually edited lbx-10s into my post before you replied. I think it's fine.
2. I was justifying why I chose more weapons are fine than not fine. In response to the second poll question.
3. Yes really
4. The fact that they are used so ubiquitously on so many builds doesn't make you at least somewhat concerned? The fact that so many light weapons are deemed bad because they tend to be compared with the medium laser. Perhaps it's not the light weapons which are bad, but the medium laser is a touch too good for it's weight. When a weapon is "the correct choice" for so many builds, I start to get concerned.

I just don't know what to say about this... I have used the LBX quite a bit because it has always been one of my favorite MW weapons but in this game it is simply outclassed. For the weight you are much better off taking anything else that does pin point damage. I have had some good games with a dual LBX CTF 4X but those are the exception. The nature of the meta as it exists now makes the LBX very ineffective on most maps and even when you can get in close a mech with high damage alphas is still going to beat you by putting 35+ damage into one spot on your mech while you spread damage all over his torso.

Medium lasers are one of the only things that are keeping lights viable so nerfing them is out of the question in my mind. If anything the ML is the standard around which other weapons should be balanced. It does good damage for the weight but it requires a lot of skill not to spread damage due to the duration. It also has a short range and generates a fair amount of heat. A Jenner boating 4-6 MLs will have to disengage to cool during a prolonged fight.

[Jonny Taco]

FupDup, on 24 June 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

Smart people would just use slugs all the time because destroying a section > crit seeking.

Exactly, "cannon" lbx10 has no place in this game. People will just use slugs the whole time and it will be a slightly more expensive 1 ton less ac10...

Keeping it as simply a shotgun is really the only way forward... As is, the weapon sux, with some minor buffs I think it could become quite viable.

[Lostdragon]

lartfor, on 24 June 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Exactly, "cannon" lbx10 has no place in this game. People will just use slugs the whole time and it will be a slightly more expensive 1 ton less ac10...

Keeping it as simply a shotgun is really the only way forward... As is, the weapon sux, with some minor buffs I think it could become quite viable.

I think that is a shortsighted position to take. If the slug and shotgun effects had synergy it could be worth it to switch. Maybe the slug has a minimum range and/or targets hit by the slug are more vulnerable to the pellets. If they buff internal HP that could also help crit seekers provided it is quicker to destroy equipment than structure (for the record I am against this as it helps assaults disproportionately compared to lights since they already have much more HP on internals).

Edited by Lostdragon, 24 June 2013 - 10:13 AM.