471 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

Livewyr, on 24 June 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

I used PPCs on my K2 before the heat nerf(buff) and they were a challenge to use.. but I liked the unlimited ammo aspects of them.

Same here... i liked the RoF and the instant hit back then - even had 2 ER-PPCs on a Awesome and one a Atlas.... the curious thing is - the same armament Gauss and Dual ER-PPC (had in CB with 29 SHS) became better and better - and is now even outmatched like you said by the RS or other multiple PPC carrying mechs.

[Mechteric]

Perhaps when they have a public test server up they'll become more willing to try things out more quickly based on community feedback.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 24 June 2013 - 05:48 AM.

[Tremendous Upside]

The biggest issue I see with the PPC boils down to the projectile speed buff that was put in back in December. Before that change was put in, you did have to "aim" and lead a target to hit it - and accuracy was dependent on whether your target was staring you down or engaged with other targets/moving. It's not like that now. Just line the shot up and click - and you're almost guaranteed to nail the target precisely where you're aiming. It's even more precise than the gauss rifle in that regard. I think if they just pushed the projectile speed back to where the AC10 is, it would solve the problem without messing with heat penalties or any of this other artificial stuff. No "firing cones" - just make it so the weapon requires more skill - and not just lining a target up quickly and snapping shots off.

[Victor Morson]

Banky, on 24 June 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

The biggest issue I see with the PPC boils down to the projectile speed buff that was put in back in December. Before that change was put in, you did have to "aim" and lead a target to hit it - and accuracy was dependent on whether your target was staring you down or engaged with other targets/moving. It's not like that now. Just line the shot up and click - and you're almost guaranteed to nail the target precisely where you're aiming. It's even more precise than the gauss rifle in that regard. I think if they just pushed the projectile speed back to where the AC10 is, it would solve the problem without messing with heat penalties or any of this other artificial stuff. No "firing cones" - just make it so the weapon requires more skill - and not just lining a target up quickly and snapping shots off.

Honestly my problem is far less with it's accuracy and capability as a sniper, but rather, the fact that the brawler weapons aren't doing considerably more damage in shorter time frames to compensate. Even if you slowed it to AC/10 speeds it'd still be better than an AC/10 right now otherwise.

[stjobe]

Victor Morson, on 23 June 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

the AMS they buffed to deal with the super missiles and didn't de-buff is rough.

This is a major reason the game seems to get more and more imbalanced - a lot of the balancing they did pre-HSR and pre-new netcode hasn't been re-balanced.

Take e.g. everyone's favourite the PPC: It was rubbish. Slow projectile speed and high heat. So to make it viable, it got buffs to projectile speed and got its heat lowered. The PPC became a good weapon. But then HSR got implemented, and the PPC became godly.

If they'd just undo the buffs they put in place before HSR was implemented, the PPC might not be such a dominating weapon any more.

And that's just one example of how the game is falling apart, not by the devs not balancing things, but by them failing to RE-balance things after they fix other broken things.

[Arkatrex]

omg..very well.

i'm afraid to say, but you gamer guys are getting on my nerves.
Should PGI hold your hands little girls? you're like crying kids...

Daaaaad, can i have an ice? Daaaaaaaaad??? CAN I HAVE AN ICE???

Do you guys think they're playing with their balls all the day???
Let them work and shut up for some weeks.

It's still beta, it's free to play and now let them do their job. And they are doing their job great.
If they have news, you will get the news. If they have no news, you will not get any news...so they're working on the game.

and they announced new big things for july. so you have to wait for the news. play the game and don't get on their nerves, *********.

[xDeityx]

Arkatrex, on 24 June 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

omg..very well.

i'm afraid to say, but you gamer guys are getting on my nerves.
Should PGI hold your hands little girls? you're like crying kids...

[Livewyr]

Arkatrex, on 24 June 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

It's still beta, it's free to play and now let them do their job. And they are doing their job great.
If they have news, you will get the news. If they have no news, you will not get any news...so they're working on the game.

and they announced new big things for july. so you have to wait for the news. play the game and don't get on their nerves, *********.

If you polish up a **** and add some garnish.. it's still a ****.

The current PPC meta is a ****- and they haven't said anything about cleaning it up.

EDIT: PGI must be getting really sensitive, "t-u-r-d" is censored?

Edited by Livewyr, 24 June 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[Jonny Taco]

Arkatrex, on 24 June 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

omg..very well.

i'm afraid to say, but you gamer guys are getting on my nerves.
Should PGI hold your hands little girls? you're like crying kids...

Daaaaad, can i have an ice? Daaaaaaaaad??? CAN I HAVE AN ICE???

Do you guys think they're playing with their balls all the day???
Let them work and shut up for some weeks.

It's still beta, it's free to play and now let them do their job. And they are doing their job great.
If they have news, you will get the news. If they have no news, you will not get any news...so they're working on the game.

and they announced new big things for july. so you have to wait for the news. play the game and don't get on their nerves, *********.

This is easily one of the worst posts I've ever read.

You're "it's still beta" argument is the most backwards argument commonly posted on these boards... If you cannot understand that beta is the time to complain and raise concern then you're beyond help.

As usual, posts like these detract from the progress of this game, not improve it...

I'd suggest leaving the thread and letting the big boys discuss potential solution to extremely obvious broken mechanics.

Edited by lartfor, 24 June 2013 - 07:40 AM.

[Roland]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 23 June 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

I disagree. The only major problem right now is the PPC/Gauss/AC40 alpha boats, and PGI knows and is working on fixes.

No. This is a mistaken impression.

The problem is not those builds. Those builds are merely symptoms of the problem.

The problem is that you can fire any number of weapons, and they will magically hit a singular point in space. This is what leads to the current metagame. It's exactly what has been the driving force in all competent mech design throughout the entire history of mechwarrior.

I understand that many people are afraid to deal with this core issue, but it's the real reason for the gameplay that you have now.

And that gameplay IS NOT NEW. It's exactly what we saw in prior incarnations of Mechwarrior. It's always been about putting together the biggest alpha strike you could, because the damage modeling in the game rewards being able to focus damage through a single panel.

Earlier in beta, there were some fools who disputed that this was the case. They said that their garbage mixed range/DPS configurations were effective in MWO. But they weren't. They just happened to be playing against other garbage players, giving them the mistaken illusion that those configurations were effective. In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. But as things progressed, it's gotten to the point where even the trash players now understand some of these basic fundamental aspects of mech design, and now yo finally see that essentially everyone has migrated to high alpha builds.. because those builds WILL ALWAYS BE BEST WHEN WEAPONS CONVERGE PERFECTLY. You can, potentially, run mixed range lances, if team coordination is well orchestrated, and if brawling weapons offer significant damage efficiency over long range mechs.. but those are some big caveats, and the latter isn't the case currently.

You either deal with this issue, or you get our current meta. Those are your options.

I don't really care either way. I can play with whatever the devs give me, but folks who argue that convergence isn't at the core of everything you see in the current metagame are either fools, liars, or both.

[8RoundsRapid]

Good rant OP, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this line:

Victor Morson, on 23 June 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

just one tweet would have quelled community rage. A simple "Hey we heard your feedback, we're looking into it!" would have done the trick.

PGI has become synonymous with 'we're discussing it,' and 'we should have a fix for this in 30 days,' type of statements. Its part of the reason nobody believes a word they say anymore.

[Corvus Antaka]

Sorry Roland but I disagree. if heat was a more significant factor on much lower dmg shots and people where forced to link fire rather than alpha strike dmg would naturally spread much more and alphas would have a place timing wise while coming at the heavy cost of extra heat.

no mech should be able to push out more than 20 dmg without a heat penaltyy proportional to any extra dmg above that. why 20? a lot of heavies have 40-50 armour on their side torsos. 1 4 erppc shot to a side torso strips the armour, but comes at no heat penalty. having to dump 2 erppc twice instead due to 4 being a push towards 100% would mean the pilot needs to land 2 shots spaced .5 seconds apart on the same component. this gives the guy being shot time to twist his torso or shift to cover to spread damage more. impossible right now when 1 alpha can tear out 60 points of dmg in 1 shot.

we could introduce a convergence system, but then we take away from pilot aiming & skill, something I am not in favour of. id much prefer heavier heat penalties, lower overall heatcap, and a limit of 20 dmg per single shot OR take a heat penalty when firing more dmg out at once.

otherwise we may as well simply add reticule shake to the mechs 24/7 and have dmg going all over the place. this is not cool, it takes away from pilot skill and aiming ability. we need to naturallly force pilots to space their weapons fire in link fire vs big pinpoint alphas, and the best way to do that is to cut the heatcap, increase dissapation, and make it so that firing more than 3 erppc puts you over 100% heat right away, crippling your mech with a shutdown and internal damage.

mech3 had a great heat system, take away the coolant flush - a 12 MLaser blackhawk would simply nuke itself if shooting all 12 lasers. we need something similar here to allow for boating while giving boats disadvantages.

the choice should be 1. lots of heatsinks, less guns, very heat efficient, little to no heat problems, or tons of guns, big heat problems, but a few big shots and then you wait forever for cooldowns.

sadly with the current 2.0/1.4 DHS and the weak SHS we find ourselves in a problematic situation that always favours engine DHS + coolant + every gun you can squeeze. in mech3 if you only took 10-12 HS your mech wouldnt hardly dissipate heat, and that is in MWO a serious problem for creating a more balanced environment.

[stjobe]

Roland, on 24 June 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

it's gotten to the point where even the trash players now understand some of these basic fundamental aspects of mech design

Point in case: I had a bit of a bad run in my BJ-1 the other day; it's load-out is dual AC/2 + 4xML. I usually try to run that as a long-range pressure applier, adding the 8 DPS from the AC/2s to whatever target my team-mates are engaging. But that day, I was getting creamed in match after match with zero kills to show for it, so I tore out the AC/2s and put a single AC/20 in. I also had to drop to 2xML instead of four.

Net result? First match, 2 kills, alive. Second match, 3 kills, alive. Third match, 1 kill and killed. Fourth match, 3 kills again.

Please note that that build doesn't have a single PPC or Gauss, nor does it have an AC/40. Just a single AC/20 with its 20 pin-point damage.

DPS is worthless. Pin-point Alpha is king.

[I3lackI2ogue]

I don't really care either way. I can play with whatever the devs give me, but folks who argue that convergence isn't at the core of everything you see in the current metagame are either fools, liars, or both.

there are no heat penalties for high alpha builds. no. heat. penalties.

convergence is all fine and good, but this still doesnt change the fire shutdown fire shutdown meta of high heat alpha builds.

[DocBach]

Roland, on 24 June 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

No. This is a mistaken impression.

The problem is not those builds. Those builds are merely symptoms of the problem.

The problem is that you can fire any number of weapons, and they will magically hit a singular point in space. This is what leads to the current metagame. It's exactly what has been the driving force in all competent mech design throughout the entire history of mechwarrior.

I understand that many people are afraid to deal with this core issue, but it's the real reason for the gameplay that you have now.

And that gameplay IS NOT NEW. It's exactly what we saw in prior incarnations of Mechwarrior. It's always been about putting together the biggest alpha strike you could, because the damage modeling in the game rewards being able to focus damage through a single panel.

Earlier in beta, there were some fools who disputed that this was the case. They said that their garbage mixed range/DPS configurations were effective in MWO. But they weren't. They just happened to be playing against other garbage players, giving them the mistaken illusion that those configurations were effective. In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. But as things progressed, it's gotten to the point where even the trash players now understand some of these basic fundamental aspects of mech design, and now yo finally see that essentially everyone has migrated to high alpha builds.. because those builds WILL ALWAYS BE BEST WHEN WEAPONS CONVERGE PERFECTLY. You can, potentially, run mixed range lances, if team coordination is well orchestrated, and if brawling weapons offer significant damage efficiency over long range mechs.. but those are some big caveats, and the latter isn't the case currently.

You either deal with this issue, or you get our current meta. Those are your options.

I don't really care either way. I can play with whatever the devs give me, but folks who argue that convergence isn't at the core of everything you see in the current metagame are either fools, liars, or both.

You sir win my award of "best post I read this morning drinking my coffee before class medal", hands down.

[Jonny Taco]

Roland, on 24 June 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

No. This is a mistaken impression.

The problem is not those builds. Those builds are merely symptoms of the problem.

The problem is that you can fire any number of weapons, and they will magically hit a singular point in space. This is what leads to the current metagame. It's exactly what has been the driving force in all competent mech design throughout the entire history of mechwarrior.

While excessive convergence is most certainly one of the causes resulting in the alpha meta we have today I don't think it's the most significant one.

The real issue, as I and many others have been posting since closed beta is that the current crit slot system is far too free form. What's needed (as I repeat myself yet again) is a more restrictive iteration of the system that sets max size values to each weapon hardpoint based upon mech and variant...

I strongly believe that a change to pinpoint targeting as you suggested as well as a more restrictive iteration on the crit slot system would end this "boating" buisness once and for all...

There is 100% no need to implement some arbitrary heat pen that will inevitably be circumvented anyway... That change is nothing more than a bad bandaid attempt which completely misdiagnoses the real cause of the issue we are discussing.

Edited by lartfor, 24 June 2013 - 08:30 AM.

[Roland]

Quote

Sorry Roland but I disagree. if heat was a more significant factor on much lower dmg shots and people where forced to link fire rather than alpha strike dmg would naturally spread much more and alphas would have a place timing wise while coming at the heavy cost of extra heat.

No man, you are wrong. Like I said, my statements aren't pulled from thin air. They've proven themselves over a period of over a decade of play in mechwarrior.

Your suggestions about heat are, again, just dancing around the real issue. You're trying to make some kind of complex heat management system to indirectly address the convergence issue.

And it will fail, because it will just result in folks moving to low heat, high alpha builds... Like the gauss-cat which dominated so much in the closed beta, when PPC's were much hotter. Gauss isn't affected by heat at all. So what are you gonna do then? Make some ADDITIONAL rule to specifically deal with that build? You're going to be chasing your tail forever, trying to make all of these individual patchwork fixes to deal with all of the builds that people continue to make, in order to optimize around the benefit of high alphas.

If you want to deal with the issues resulting from convergence, THEN DEAL WITH CONVERGENCE. Don't keep making a bunch of half-assed solutions that dance around the periphery of the problem.

Quote

we could introduce a convergence system, but then we take away from pilot aiming & skill, something I am not in favour of. id much prefer heavier heat penalties, lower overall heatcap, and a limit of 20 dmg per single shot OR take a heat penalty when firing more dmg out at once.

Again, you are mistaken. There are ways to implement a system which does not ammount to a big random number generator and dice rolling. Certainly, it won't let you just fire 10 weapons and have them all converge on the same point, but that is not the same as limiting pilot skill. It is merely creating a framework of piloting rules that the player must understand and worth within.

And really, that's exactly what you are proposing... only you are doing it via complex, arbitrary rules that are designed around trying to patch away the specific builds that people are using today. Thus, your rules are going to fail as soon as new weapons or mech configurations come into existence (which they will).

Quote

While excessive convergence is most certainly one of the causes resulting in the alpha meta we have today I don't think it's the most significant one.

Well, it is. And everyone who has played prior mechwarrior titles can attest to it.

Quote

The real issue, as I and many others have been posting since closed beta is that the current crit slot system is far too free form. What's needed (as I repeat myself yet again) is a more restrictive iteration of the system that sets max size values to each weapon hardpoint based upon mech and variant...

Even in MW4, with a more limiting hardpoint system (or at least, limited in different ways), you had the exact same issues.

Hell, even if you removed ALL customization, what will you see then? People will just gravitate to the stock mechs WHICH BOAT WEAPONS. You'll just see folks driving things like the Hunchback 4P.

Again, you are making the mistake of dancing around the real issue...and your proposed fixes will fail because of it. You will be stuck in a neverending cycle of trying to hit a moving target. You'll patch away one flavor of the month build, and it'll just be replaced by another build focused on maximizing its alpha strike within the new constraints you have created.

Quote

convergence is all fine and good, but this still doesnt change the fire shutdown fire shutdown meta of high heat alpha builds.

You aren't thinking things through.

If convergence isn't perfect, then the "fire-shutdown-fire" meta will change. Why? Because it will no longer be effective. You'll be spreading your fire all over the target, instead of drilling through a single panel.

Again, I am perfectly content to play with the high-alpha meta we have now... It's not new to me. But I don't bury my head in the sand and pretend that it doesn't exist, like so many other folks apparently do.

This crap is well understood by all of the advanced players in this community. Some of them like it, and don't want to really draw attention to it, because they don't want it to change. And I can understand that... kind of a "the devil you know" type of deal, because they certainly could turn it into something worse. But there are a ton of folks here who are offering suggestions, seemingly without even understanding what the core issues are. If you don't understand that the convergence system is at the root of all of the metagame issues you are seeing, then your solutions are going to fail.

[Tezcatli]

They think it's this problem, so they found a run around way of nerfing around the problem. The community thinks it's 3 or 4 different problems.

I think PGI listens. But they don't really interact. Though why would they? Every other thread is just someone venting their rage at being destroyed by an alpha strike or some other thing they think is an injustice. They did hear us on the issue of PPC meta game. It's just their response is the the heat penalties they plan to implement.

My concern is that the money they've made off of MWO isn't going back into the game. Where it could do a lot of good. Given how many times a patch has broken some part of the game or made an unintended change. I really hope the reason for that is simply because they're working on Community Warfare, clan mechs, and other things to make things better at mythical launch of the game.

[Corvus Antaka]

I'm sorry roland...what mech game didnt have pinpoint convergence? iirc both mech3 and 4 had pinpoint convergence. granted mech3 ac's worked differently, but lasers where pinpoint. so in terms of "proven" you'll need to explain that more in depth. Heat works just fine to balance these issues. that's not to say we wouldnt benefit from the PPC and ac's firing differently to spread dmg more, ie mech3 AC's.

[Arkatrex]

Rotten scum. No more to say about it.

i told the truth, i am sure you don't want to hear it. but that doesn't matter.

The actual generation of gamers are silly customers which don't need to think about anything, don't want to honor the hard work which includes coding, design and publish games.

but you want it all without spend any ******* cent. But sorry, didn't know that you're all omniscient guys.

why do you not hire @ PGI and do their job???? useless victims...really.