471 replies to this topic

[Asmosis]

StaggerCheck, on 24 June 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

I imagine 80+ point Clan alpha strikes are going to come as quite a shock to the development team.

which is probably why they are working on balancing high alpha builds now in a way that future proofs vs this kind of thing rather than waiting till clan arrives?

I disagree with the heat penalty ofc (convergence makes more sense) but the post on 11/06 was just the tip of an idea they were tossing out. It gave 2 small examples and an opportunity to get the community involved in an idea from the start, it wasn't "this is what we're doing and YOU WILL LIKE IT" it was more of an invite for constructive discussion.

and look what happened.

and people wonder why they don't post as much?

probably busy doing more important things related to making the game, theres Q&A's on a constant basis, they put up detailed posts on anything medium - major that's getting added or adjusted, they obviously can't post stuff that's earlier in development because the vocal minority will throw a tantrum at *any* news about *anything* that gets released.

people getting upset about pulse standardization is probably a decent example. If you take a step back and look at what the future holds, it makes a lot of sense. A standardization + tweeks makes much more sense when you consider how many different laser variations there will be down the track, different cooling options like clan DHS and anything else they have on paper that is invisible to us. The changes to LPL may be perfectly balanced when taken in the context of new equipment, new balances to PPC's, convergence, maybe even the way heat overall works.

Point is they have all the variables when doing balances inc the invisible stuff (clan, new weapons/equip etc), we have 1/3 or so of the necessary info to make an informed decision. An example of hidden variables? MASC. think how much that would affect long range ballistics. Maybe nerfing projectile velocity down from 2000ms to 1000ms? any number of things would suddenly make lasers (or any weapon) more appealing without touching lasers at all.

[Major Derps]

I can't help but think I'm the only one that has a problem with the matchmaker; it is majorly flawed, and no one seems to care, nor be doing anything about it...
But yes, the game play balance needs a lot of changes in regards to the amount of damage and focused damage dealt. I can see they are starting to make small changes; that is probably the best way to do it, but it just feels that for every patch that actually makes progress, there a two more that set us farther back than we were to begin with in all aspects of development.

12 v 12 is going to suck balls in the game's current format.

[Argent Usher]

My 2 points of sadness


Well after i've been playing MWO almost a year and the fact i'm really grateful to PGI for some of the best gaming moments of my life there are still some feelings... hmm.... of sadness with a good pinch of frustration.

Why?

Because the most of PGI's work shines only at first glance, the second is mostly dark and sometimes in the last year it was really hard to believe you have ever played a Battletech game or any strategy game.
Another problem is in addition to the mentioned communication problem - your general lack of speed in the development which is as slow as molasses.
I was in small modder teams of 3 man and we had more weekly updates ("changing a single code line don't need 14 days") and we had a simple golden rule "Don't publish broken stuff".

And finally PGI should abandon the thought Mechwarrior Online will be a second World of Tanks - it will not happen.
MWO is to complicated, the engine need a decent hardware and "Metal dolls are for children, tanks are for men!" is a user quote from a german game magazine what probably best describes the general opinion of the casual gamer.


A.U.

[Sug]

xengk, on 24 June 2013 - 08:50 PM, said:

Balancing based on competitive play basically punish everyone who is not playing competitively and promoted FOTM build.

This why MtG is still fun after 20 years, the game is balanced for the mass so everyone can find different build for their deck and meta deck often gets countered after awhile.

*cough* Caw blade *cough*

The top mtg decks in tourneys are usually the same. It's a matter of who gets their card out first. Not fun.

[Sug]

Mokey Mot, on 25 June 2013 - 04:28 AM, said:

I can't help but think I'm the only one that has a problem with the matchmaker; it is majorly flawed, and no one seems to care, nor be doing anything about it...

You're not the only one. Currently the matchmaker is trying to give pugs a sweet, sweet 50/50 win/loss ratio, which means eventually the MM will decide it's time for you to loss and there's nothing you can do about it.

Fun.

[Roland]

Ya, the only reason that guy thinks that MtG allows you to "play any deck you want" is because he's not playing at a competitive level.

The same goes in MWO.... if you play against other garbage players, then you can play with garbage mechs and think they're competitive. But when you go up against good players in optimized mechs, you get facerolled.

And really, there's no way around this. You just need to learn to deal with it. If you want to not get crushed, then you can't play poorly with garbage-boy mechs.

[Felbombling]

Arkatrex, on 24 June 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

Sorry guys, but i'm happy with the game. For sure..PGI have much work to do...but it's to them how they do it. Essential thing is..they do it...and it looks like they can do it.

Don't forget the upcoming features:

UI 2.0
Community Warfare

Only these two points are many many many work. This is not like... one click and ready. Think about that.

That is all well and good, Arkatrex, but the problems with the game combat are still going to exist when UI 2.0 and Community Warfare are introduced. The core game mechanics are at fault for many issues, which only spawn ideas and theories about how to fix it from one hundred different angles. They are making adjustments, sure, but those changes will not really change what is going on at the moment. Take the position of Asmosis for an example. Asmosis believes that they are going to address the heavy weapon boating problem with this stacking heat penalty, or some version of it.

Asmosis, on 25 June 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

which is probably why they are working on balancing high alpha builds now in a way that future proofs vs this kind of thing rather than waiting till clan arrives?

Well, it is a step in the right direction if you ignore the fact that, as implemented now, the penalty will easily be sidestepped. When the Clans arrive, and PGI would be silly to allow us access to them with the current combat mechanics, you will see devastating builds running around. For myself, I would skirt the stacking heat penalty by taking 2x ER PPC, 2x Large Pulse Laser and 2x ER Large laser on an assault chassis. That amounts to a 70 point alpha strike for a Mech able to carry about 19 double heat sinks, so heat pool and dissipation are adequate for such a build. I don’t imagine PGI will implement a stacking penalty on two weapons of the same type being fired at the same time, so where is the downside?

The issues have been so well documented at this point, it is impossible to imagine that PGI doesn’t have a handle on it. Yet, frustration grows due to perceived lack of insight and forethought when changes do occur. Basically, weapon convergence + high weapon reload/recycle speed + Mechlab freedom + low ammunition per ton + lack of heat penalties = heavy weapon boating and alpha strikes.

As much as I’d like the game to be balanced with some minor weapon tweaks here and there, it is never going to happen with the current core mechanics in place. You can tweak the living **** out of every weapon on the chart, the player base will just shift focus to the weapon that fits best within the current core mechanic setup.

[Teralitha]

Because Morson wrote that, I actually read all of it. Couple of points -

IGP employees are the ones deciding which forum suggestions to the devs.

Do the devs see them? Im sure they see some, after going through the ranks, and having ppl on the way deciding whats important and what isnt before getting to the devs.

So basically, IGP is deciding whats important enough for the devs to see.

-------------------------------

I am wondering what would happen if another (better)creative designer if given the opportunity to scrutinize what has designed here, What would they say? I believe they would take a look at the design and have lots of little ??? above their head.... and at some point, walk away shaking their head, saying... this game is garbage...


I willing to bet other creative directors would laugh and cry if they saw how this game was designed. It would probably be in the best interest of the company to get a new one..... anyone. It couldnt get much worse could it?

Surely with the vested interest IGP has in this game, they would urge PGI to select and hire a new lead designer after seeing all the negative feedback about the game..... for many months..... and... years.

Edited by Teralitha, 25 June 2013 - 08:04 AM.

[Tom Sawyer]

I have tried to keep up with this thread. I have been an avid if not rabid TT fan of the BT universe. I sadly did not join this game as a founder. But I still enjoy coming home from work and playing a few rounds when I can. And although my nickname handle comes from Rush lately I find myself singing this song from Pink Floyd and thinking how PGI has been lately:

"Keep Talking"

For millions of years mankind lived just like the animals
Then something happened which unleashed the power of our imagination
We learned to talk

There's a silence surrounding me
I can't seem to think straight
I'll sit in the corner
No one can bother me
I think I should speak now
I can't seem to speak now
My words won't come out right
I feel like I'm drowning
I'm feeling weak now
But I can't show my weakness
I sometimes wonder
Where do we go from here

It doesn't have to be like this
All we need to do is make sure we keep talking

Why won't you talk to me
You never talk to me
What are you thinking
What are you feeling
Why won't you talk to me
You never talk to me
What are you thinking
Where do we go from here

It doesn't have to be like this
All we need to do is make sure we keep talking

Why won't you talk to me
You never talk to me
What are you thinking
What are you feeling
Why won't you talk to me
You never talk to me
What are you thinking
What are you feeling

I feel like I'm drowning
You know I can't breathe now
We're going nowhere
We're going nowhere

[Teralitha]

Roland, on 25 June 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

Ya, the only reason that guy thinks that MtG allows you to "play any deck you want" is because he's not playing at a competitive level.

The same goes in MWO.... if you play against other garbage players, then you can play with garbage mechs and think they're competitive. But when you go up against good players in optimized mechs, you get facerolled.

And really, there's no way around this. You just need to learn to deal with it. If you want to not get crushed, then you can't play poorly with garbage-boy mechs.

Why cant all mechs and weapons and heat sinks just be created equal with only pure raw skill deciding who wins? Why is it only the good players playing "optimized" .. "mechs" are the ones who win? Why is equipment the deciding factor now and not skill? What are you thinking? thats why this game is trash.

[Roland]

Teralitha, on 25 June 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

Why cant all mechs and weapons and heat sinks just be created equal with only pure raw skill deciding who wins? Why is it only the good players playing "optimized" .. "mechs" are the ones who win? Why is equipment the deciding factor now and not skill? What are you thinking? thats why this game is trash.

Because there are certain principles of mech design which enable skillful use.

For instance, if you take a mech which is just a bunch of random crap, with no focus, then that mech is gonna be trash.... There's no way to make terrible configurations into good configurations.

This isn't to say that a big part of the issue is that many weapons need to be buffed up... many configurations (such as all of the machine gun based mechs) are terrible because the MG's are artificially terrible compared to the original TT statistics upon which those configurations were originally designed.

Mechs like the spider with 4 MG's, for instance... this is a stock config in BT, not because it's supposed to critically hit mechs, but rather because those 4 machine guns are supposed to be cranking out 8 damage every round once the thing is in close range.

So, certainly, weapons balance needs to be improved for certain weapons, but at the same time many terrible configurations just still gonna be terrible.

For instance, I saw a spider running around yesterday with a flamer and an LBX10. The thing was moving at what had to be, maybe 60 kph? Even if they made the flamer and LBX into workable weapons, that config is always gonna be trash.

[Enigmos]

There is nothing they can do or say that will not be opposed by one or another forum faction. Building a game in front of the fan-base is like trying to rebuild a church in front of the congregation: no matter how good a job you do it isn't good enough, should have been done for free, and been done yesterday. If every time you say something you get shouted down by unreasoning and ignorant clowns you'll end talking less and won't talk long. If you have a problem with the amount of information they are sharing, look in the mirror to identify the cause.

[Orzorn]

It doesn't help that there is no ladder in this game to gauge player skill, and thus, also gauge what are the most powerful (And thus, on the flip side, the weaker) builds. Dota balances by directly interacting with top tier players, and looking at the tournaments and what heroes aren't just used a lot (because they might just have good synergy), but used almost to the point of exclusion to others (which is what happened with Anti-Mage a while ago).

PGI is looking at large data, but the thing is, many people do not care what they play. I mean, I see MG + flamer Blackjacks for god sakes. Many players either do not care what they use, or use frankenmechs and still manage to win because their ELO is lower and they're also playing against frankenmechs. You know, I wish I had that luxury, but when almost every game has a handful of mechs and builds shining, its clear what builds are the most powerful.

[8RoundsRapid]

Asmosis, on 25 June 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

...the post on 11/06 was just the tip of an idea they were tossing out. It gave 2 small examples and an opportunity to get the community involved in an idea from the start, it wasn't "this is what we're doing and YOU WILL LIKE IT" it was more of an invite for constructive discussion.

and look what happened.

and people wonder why they don't post as much?

probably busy doing more important things related to making the game, theres Q&A's on a constant basis, they put up detailed posts on anything medium - major that's getting added or adjusted, they obviously can't post stuff that's earlier in development because the vocal minority will throw a tantrum at *any* news about *anything* that gets released.

Point is they have all the variables when doing balances inc the invisible stuff (clan, new weapons/equip etc), we have 1/3 or so of the necessary info to make an informed decision.

You know, PGI chose this business model. They chose to take 5 mil in founders money before the game was more than 10% complete. They chose this ****. Nobody is holding a gun to PGI's head forcing any of these decisions upon them. It is no secret that when you open the doors for the general internet public to 'test' your game pre-launch, then the general internet public will post ad nauseum in your forums criticizing and insulting your work. That is the price they pay for soft launching a f2p game, which if you think about it, the only reason to do so is to make more money. They got the money, but now they don't want to do what accepting that money entails? Sounds like a scam, a rip-off, and near criminal, not to mention completely unethical.

If they can't handle the heat, they shouldn't have done business in the manner they did. They promised the moon, and many fell for it (shame on you!) and then they changed and/or deleted their promises. In essence, I view your description of PGI as them not holding up their end of an agreement. They took the money. They opened their game to the general public. This is the business they are in. If they can't handle a little criticism from internet denizens when their entire cash flow comes from said internet denizens, they have no business being in this... um... business.

Basically, your defense argument of 'why would they post, look at what happens when they do!' is weak and not rooted in reality. PGI made the rules of this game, now they want to ignore the rules they made and hide away from the mean internet people? Sorry, not gonna happen. They ruined yet another chance at having a real mechwarrior/battletech first person video game, and they expect thanks and niceties on the internet for their troubles? **** on that. And yes, I am bitter about it. How many more chances is this franchise going to get?

Tom Sawyer, on 25 June 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

my nickname handle comes from Rush

With all due respect, I'm pretty sure Tom Sawyer was around long before Rush...

[Demuder]

Very nice post OP, totally agree on the assessment.

The sad part is, that this subforum is full of good criticism and ideas, PGI doesn't need to get actively involved, they just have to scan through it. Sure, there's a lot of spam and repetitiveness, but not excessive to the point to make the thing worthless. The community is mature enough and there's valid arguments from all and for all aspects of gameplay for them to make informed decisions.

[Lostdragon]

It all boils down to respect in my opinion. PGI, through both their actions and inaction have lost a lot of respect. By continuing to ignore feedback, ideas, criticism, and questions from the most vocal fans of the game they are doing nothing but adding fuel to the fire.

Respect is a two way street so if they want to regain credibility and respect PGI needs to step up and tell us what is going on with the game. We deserve to know where the game is going and how it is going to get there.

I understand they are hesitant to make promises they can't keep but missing a deadline then not giving a word of explanation as to why or what is going on is disrespectful of the people who have spent money and time on the game. The folks on the forums are the ones who truly care about the game and the community and are probably the ones spending the most money.

So if PGI wants to see less vitriol and standoffish attitudes from players they need to step up and communicate. Show us the respect we deserve as paying customers who want to see the game succeed.

People would give them a lot more latitude if they just said "Hey, we know you have been expecting SRM tweaks for a month now but it didn't make it into this patch because we are still working on xyz problem(s). We hope to have it in the next patch bit it may be delayed another cycle as we work out the bugs and test."

Something like that about the major issues that have caused such uproar lately would go a long way. Instead they remain silent. People think they are fiddling while Rome burns. It doesn't matter if they are trying to put out the fires behind the scenes because if they don't see it then people assume the worst and by the time the fire is out everyone will be long gone.

These communication failures at the most basic level are so frustrating because they are so incredibly easy to fix.

[MustrumRidcully]

OriginalTibs, on 25 June 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

There is nothing they can do or say that will not be opposed by one or another forum faction. Building a game in front of the fan-base is like trying to rebuild a church in front of the congregation: no matter how good a job you do it isn't good enough, should have been done for free, and been done yesterday. If every time you say something you get shouted down by unreasoning and ignorant clowns you'll end talking less and won't talk long. If you have a problem with the amount of information they are sharing, look in the mirror to identify the cause.

There aren't many clowns on these forums. There are a lot of analysis going on. There are some that just try to scream loudest, but just because there are a few idiots doesn't mean it's wise to ignore the smarter ones. You need to learn to filter through the crap. Unless of course you don't make any mistakes in the first place. But they do.

[MustrumRidcully]

Lostdragon, on 25 June 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

I understand they are hesitant to make promises they can't keep but missing a deadline then not giving a word of explanation as to why or what is going on is disrespectful of the people who have spent money and time on the game. The folks on the forums are the ones who truly care about the game and the community and are probably the ones spending the most money.

So if PGI wants to see less vitriol and standoffish attitudes from players they need to step up and communicate. Show us the respect we deserve as paying customers who want to see the game succeed.

People would give them a lot more latitude if they just said "Hey, we know you have been expecting SRM tweaks for a month now but it didn't make it into this patch because we are still working on xyz problem(s). We hope to have it in the next patch bit it may be delayed another cycle as we work out the bugs and test."

Something like that about the major issues that have caused such uproar lately would go a long way. Instead they remain silent. People think they are fiddling while Rome burns. It doesn't matter if they are trying to put out the fires behind the scenes because if they don't see it then people assume the worst and by the time the fire is out everyone will be long gone.

These communication failures at the most basic level are so frustrating because they are so incredibly easy to fix.

One relatively simple thing to do would be:

"This is on our schedule right now in terms of game balance:
- Investigate Weapon X
- Investigate Weapon Y
- Investigate Mechanic A
- Investigate Module M

The SRM is currently not on the agenda, because we believe that Weapon X needs more attention right now, and even if the SRM might seem weak right now, fixing X should improve balance and the metagame.

But we are just guessing what they are doing. We only know "It's not [current problem case] turn yet".

It won't make them work magically faster knowing how they want to do this. But it gives us a better feeling of how things progress. And that can lessen the tension. Of course there are people that want everything now. But just satisfying the "reasonable" players with information can vastly improve the atmosphere. Because they know their concerns haven't just fallen on deaf ears.

For comparison:
Cryptic sucks at game balance, too. Startrek Online's PvP is an utter mess and I couldn't give them any good tips how to fix it, other than "start over". I only know what's wrong. But there is actually some communication with the devs going on there. And on other hot topics, you can bet dstahl will pop in and post some messages. Sometimes aggressively discussing, not making everyone happy, but active, responding.
You feel there is some kind of dialogue. It's not even close to as good as it would need to be for PvP concerns. But Cryptic isn't making a PVP game. It's just a mode that a minority of enthusiasts players, while the rest is neck deep into PvE, grinding their levels and running their STFs and all that sh*t. And attention is given to those.

[Antarus]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 24 June 2013 - 12:34 AM, said:

I used a few terms that seem obvious to me, but I think might need some clarification ...

A "bad" build ... one that has glaring weaknesses, obvious to any moderately experienced player. Most stock 'mechs fall in this category because they are either under armored, slow, under gunned, overly complex, or the heat efficiency sucks (or all that).

A "fun, but ineffective" build ... "fun" is objective, "ineffective" means it doesn't usually impact the outcome of a match. Most experienced players would giggle, and think, "I might try that, just for the heck of it." An example: I really enjoy jumping around in my 4x MG, 1x LL SDR-5K. I've even had a couple of 3-kill games in it, but in most matches, it didn't really make a difference.

A "good" build ... one that two moderately skilled players with different points of view could have a reasonable argument about, and both would be right (and wrong). With it, a pilot with above average skill wins more than he loses, kills more than he dies, has a few great matches, and a few horrible ones.

An "optimum" build ... (aka: a "cheese" build) one that exploits imbalances in the game. Almost every experienced player who looks at the build grins and knows it's OP. There are ways to counter them, but the advantages the build gives usually makes it a dominating factor in determining the outcome of the match (maybe not every match, but enough so that guys who track their stats realize that they have a significant advantage).

At the highest level of play, "optimum" builds will be the most common, because every slight advantage can tip the balance between two top performers. "Good" builds should still be viable at the highest levels of play, but only when piloted by guys who are well-suited to the build's strengths and weaknesses, or just plain talented.

IMO, the game is balanced when the difference between "optimum" builds and "good" builds is reasonably small and players with enough experience to recognize a "good" build and an "optimum" build feel like they have choices.

Good and Optimum builds should force you to adapt your playstyle to their weaknesses.

The current meta's long range pinpoint builds force you to adapt by playing the same game they are instead, which is the issue.

[Felbombling]

8RoundsRapid, on 25 June 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

With all due respect, I'm pretty sure Tom Sawyer was around long before Rush...

It is more messed up than you could possibly imagine, 8RoundsRapid. Rock music warps the minds of our children and weakens the resolve of our allies!