387 replies to this topic

[Prezimonto]

Again, I would argue that now is the exact time to consider these kinds of changes, as the devs have stated they'll be reworking the entire HUD after UI 2.0 is out.

I don't mind "very fast kills" if they get rid of instant kills. There is essentially no reason to not alpha strike until you hit a heat cap right now. This situation would put grouped and alpha weapons in a much less desirable context, without removing the ability for large highly effective alpha strikes.

This would encourage varied builds able to strike across multiple ranges. It would put the ER weapons back into the more regularly as I suspect quite a few people would choose one ER PPC or ER large laser out of one or two in their builds much more commonly... just so they can still fire on the move at long range targets.

Light mechs would still have less to worry about in terms of both damage and being damaged by these changes. Large alpha strikes make heavies and assault class mechs vastly more appealing, but taking some of the utility away from large alpha's you naturally increase the appeal of light mechs, without, I think, making them OP in any way. The best thing I can point to with this is again: single AC20's still devastate light mechs, but they don't one shot them, and that's a good thing for game balance and fun.

[Attmark]

This suggestion heard sounds good, but....
Finally,Catching Happiness by camping snipers only.

[DocBach]

Tegiminis, on 14 July 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

Good job deleting your post where you called TBK a "goon tryhard."

If you're going to say something, at least stand by it.

You're mistaking a different poster for something I said. I'm pretty sure a moderator cleaved a whole bunch of posts so I cannot reference them.

Tank Boy Ken, on 14 July 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

So the only problem your trying to solve is dying from one shot? You are okay of dying in 1.5 to 2 seconds ? I'm just trying to point out that having the old firing mechanism for single fire will make this system not working on people who can aim and adapt. Please understand that I too don't want Mechs to get instantly destroyed. But the lever needs to be Firepower / Armor.

1) This requires a rework of ECM mechanics and the Sensor lock mechanic.
2) This solution makes firing at beyond 800m a bit hard, I regularily fight at 1.5 to 2km on Alpine. If you can't converge without a targeting lock or have to keep the reticule on the Enemy this will not easily work at that distance. Because you have to lead your shots.
3) Also Long range+ 4, Target moving 150 kph +5 = 4+ 9/3 = 7 seconds for "max" convergence.... Yeah this sounds like a good idea.
4) Oh single shot still makes this system obsolete...
5) How does this system deal with Zoom levels? Seriously this is an important part. I guess the Reticule expands and shrinks on each level? If you make such a complex suggestion you have to deal with all issues that crop up.
6) Yes tell the enemy to move slower so you gain convergence faster.




7. Yeah unless you shoot single fire, then you can still put everything in one spot... So depending how I fire I use different aim points. Don't you think this is a bit weird?


8. Also if Pulse Laser converge differently than normal weapons, don't you need different reticules for that too?

I'd agree that the first tournament was more of an endurance competition than a test of skill. Subsequent tournaments rewarded individual matches more, and I was able to place 6th on the leaderboards for mediums after playing for about six hours total over the weekend. I'd say that playing games with other leader board ranked competition where you've got very little ability to coordinate or communicate and still placing high in the rankings is some indication of personal skill.

1. Yes, as described in the OP, ECM would have to be reworked. Actually, a whole bunch of things would have to be reworked. I'd say make it so ECM doesn't let you autotarget by just hitting R; you should be able to place your reticle over a 'Mech in the open and hit a key to manually target them, though.

2. The idea was the convergence lock is like gaining a missile lock; you don't have to have your reticle over the target reticle precisely, more or less in the vicinity of the target lock to allow for leading shots on lateral targets or targets at long distances. Again, single fire would still be an option for placing shots at long range without waiting for your weapons to converge.

3/4. Yes, it makes a player resort to single firing weapons if they want to instantly and accurately engage fast targets, unless the target decides to make itself present for seven seconds while the firing 'Mech stands still exposed to enemy fire and movement. And if he takes fire and decides he wants to turn his torso to spread the damage out, he starts to lose his convergences progress when he removes the reticle from the target box vicinity.

5. Zoom levels would require the reticle's appearance to also appear larger, to give players a realistic representation of where their weapons are converged.

6. Exactly why staying mobile becomes beneficial if you want to avoid someone sniping at you; it becomes very hard for someone to expose themselves for 7 seconds to get perfect convergence if you stay mobile and move up through defilaide.

7. The idea is that one weapon can be ballistically calculated easier than multiple. The different reticle points of aim is to give a player an estimation on how well converged their weapons are in the event they want to fire them before complete convergence is obtained. When you fire a group, there would be so many different ballistics for each different weapon system. It's very hard to fire weapons of different calibers located at different angles throughout a vehicle and have them all hit the same location, and the convergence time represents the 'Mech's targeting computers to find those angles and adjustments.

8. The idea is "you are only as fast as your slowest man," so if you group pulse lasers with other weapons you lose the pulse bonus. Same with say, grouping PPC's with medium lasers; they would use the worst modifier so a medium laser wouldn't converge quicker within 90m because of the PPC's minimum range and a medium laser wouldn't converge quicker in the PPC's effective range because its range is 270m. They would use the highest modifier which would help inhibit grouping long range weapons with short range weapons to make the short range weapons converge quicker.

The idea is to make single weapons the primary attack, with group fire, especially alpha strikes be an attack that takes time to achieve to try to unbreak the fact that we've taken a board game mechanic, put it in real time, then put in a real time mechanic that lets you exploit the inherent weakness of a randomized dice system being replaced by a player being able to place a cursor over wherever you want to shoot.

Again, I've never advocated that this is the only system that could fix the game, but in the long run when we have Clan weapons that do much more damage for less heat and space, having a 'Mech that can do 60-75-90 points of alpha strike damage to a single location without being effected by Paul's artificial heat raise really having to work for it is going to be pretty terrible for the game. Something to take into consideration when discussing balance is that we only have half the game; when Clan tech hits the scene they will hit harder, run cooler, and move faster.

Edited by DocBach, 14 July 2013 - 07:35 AM.

[DocBach]

Attmark, on 14 July 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

This suggestion heard sounds good, but....
Finally,Catching Happiness by camping snipers only.

To fire large groups at long range like snipers currently do would require them expose themselves for several seconds, making them unable to hill hump, pop tart or torso twist to spread damage out. It would also make them much easier for your weapons to converge on.

You, and them, also have the ability to chain fire weapons for point of aim, point of impact accuracy.

[Prezimonto]

Quote

seven seconds

I think that might the only thing I'm uncomfortable with the Doc's suggestion (I'd prefer 4 to 5 seconds). Though if targeting targeting computers could be added to reduce times I'd be okay with it.

And that is, IMO, a huge added benefit. That this type of system would allow for a much larger variety of electronics to be added to customize your play style.

Edited by Prezimonto, 14 July 2013 - 07:46 AM.

[DocBach]

Prezimonto, on 14 July 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

I think that might the only thing I'm uncomfortable with the Doc's suggestion (I'd prefer 4 to 5 seconds). Though if targeting targeting computers could be added to reduce times I'd be okay with it.

And that is, IMO, a huge added benefit. That this type of system would allow for a much larger variety of electronics to be added to customize your play style.

Targeting computers would decrease convergence time, as would having a C3 spotter; 'Mechs in C3 networks share the range modifier as the closest 'Mech who has it targeted, making C3 spotters for accurate long range fire a useful role for light 'Mechs, especially since it is harder to hit them with giant alpha strikes and smear them instantly.

[Ken Fury]

DocBach, on 14 July 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

7. The idea is that one weapon can be ballistically calculated easier than multiple. The different reticle points of aim is to give a player an estimation on how well converged their weapons are in the event they want to fire them before complete convergence is obtained. When you fire a group, there would be so many different ballistics for each different weapon system. It's very hard to fire weapons of different calibers located at different angles throughout a vehicle and have them all hit the same location, and the convergence time represents the 'Mech's targeting computers to find those angles and adjustments.

8. The idea is "you are only as fast as your slowest man," so if you group pulse lasers with other weapons you lose the pulse bonus. Same with say, grouping PPC's with medium lasers; they would use the worst modifier so a medium laser wouldn't converge quicker within 90m because of the PPC's minimum range and a medium laser wouldn't converge quicker in the PPC's effective range because its range is 270m. They would use the highest modifier which would help inhibit grouping long range weapons with short range weapons to make the short range weapons converge quicker.

The idea is to make single weapons the primary attack, with group fire, especially alpha strikes be an attack that takes time to achieve to try to unbreak the fact that we've taken a board game mechanic, put it in real time, then put in a real time mechanic that lets you exploit the inherent weakness of a randomized dice system being replaced by a player being able to place a cursor over wherever you want to shoot.

Again, I've never advocated that this is the only system that could fix the game, but in the long run when we have Clan weapons that do much more damage for less heat and space, having a 'Mech that can do 60-75-90 points of alpha strike damage to a single location without being effected by Paul's artificial heat raise really having to work for it is going to be pretty terrible for the game. Something to take into consideration when discussing balance is that we only have half the game; when Clan tech hits the scene they will hit harder, run cooler, and move faster.

Your trying to cure a problem that isn't existing.

@7. You want single fire as the primary attack thus making people go for a few big guns. This is pushing even more of the smaller weapons into the useless range. It's too much effort for no gain. It would be a lot easier to disallow groupfire and introduce a global cooldown. But even that is a stupid idea because it makes Mechs with multiple guns useless (Stalker).

@8 If I have one weapon group with 2x Medium Pulse Lasers and one other with 2x PPCs, how will the reticules provide the benefit of Pulse Lasers to me? This is not true to the idea that Pulse lasers are more accurate.

The way to fix the game can't be done with one single fix. And when Clans come with Ultra AC/20s this idea won't help. You can easily fit 2x ULTRA AC/20 in a single location on heavy Clan Mechs. Heck there is the Hunchback IIC fitting 2 of those into a 50ton Mech.

The most sensible suggestions I've seen combine the following:
- More hitpoints to at least 2.5/2.75 x of TT Values (we're currently at 2x TT values)
- +1 Heat on regular PPCs
- Projectile Speed on regular PPCs to 1200 m/s
- Buff SRMs (hey PGI actually asked us about that)
- Buff LPLs and MPLs to decent Brawler weapons.

On Clans:
Give Clan Mechs a less hitpoints and also tune their weapons because Clanbullshittech.

[soarra]

Tank Boy Ken, on 14 July 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

Your trying to cure a problem that isn't existing.

@7. You want single fire as the primary attack thus making people go for a few big guns. This is pushing even more of the smaller weapons into the useless range. It's too much effort for no gain. It would be a lot easier to disallow groupfire and introduce a global cooldown. But even that is a stupid idea because it makes Mechs with multiple guns useless (Stalker).

@8 If I have one weapon group with 2x Medium Pulse Lasers and one other with 2x PPCs, how will the reticules provide the benefit of Pulse Lasers to me? This is not true to the idea that Pulse lasers are more accurate.

The way to fix the game can't be done with one single fix. And when Clans come with Ultra AC/20s this idea won't help. You can easily fit 2x ULTRA AC/20 in a single location on heavy Clan Mechs. Heck there is the Hunchback IIC fitting 2 of those into a 50ton Mech.

The most sensible suggestions I've seen combine the following:
- More hitpoints to at least 2.5/2.75 x of TT Values (we're currently at 2x TT values)
- +1 Heat on regular PPCs
- Projectile Speed on regular PPCs to 1200 m/s
- Buff SRMs (hey PGI actually asked us about that)
- Buff LPLs and MPLs to decent Brawler weapons.

On Clans:
Give Clan Mechs a less hitpoints and also tune their weapons because Clanbullshittech.

so you want gauss and ppc to have the same projectile speed, yeah that will fix everything
PPc and ERPPC heat should be put back to TT values

Edited by soarra, 14 July 2013 - 08:31 AM.

[Prezimonto]

More hit points/armor only further punishes single weapons, particularly small ones.

[Ken Fury]

soarra, on 14 July 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

so you want gauss and ppc to have the same projectile speed, yeah that will fix everything
PPc and ERPPC heat should be put back to TT values

PPCs are the symptom of the problem not the root cause. You could also move Gauss projectile to 1500m/s to have them all at different levels.

@Prezel
More Hitpoints buffs heat efficient designs.

[Lord of All]

Erata, on 13 July 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

Here's the deal as simply as anyone can put it.
Due to the health points a robot has,...

Sorry lost me when you started on hit points. Maybe you should address armor values, hit box locations and internal/Critical structures and the rest of your post will get read.

Tegiminis, on 13 July 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

Changing convergence is a way to punish people who are better shots than you, and is thus an incredibly idiotic idea.

What an idiotic thought. PLEASE tell me you didn't think this through before posting this. Adding convergence will add a skill to the game where there is no skill and any monkey can click as soon as a mech walks around a corner.

Team Leader, on 13 July 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

I guess its actually a pretty good system and would make it much more enjoyable but the fact that it would be an act of God to hit a light at medium range kind of kills this for me. I like it but I just dont feel its the best possible solution.

Actually Giving Mediums a life in this game would be great and as far as lights go, when convergence (in some form) is implemented then their hitboxes can be fixed so they actually take damage!

Takony, on 14 July 2013 - 02:25 AM, said:

Convergence nerf with the already wonky hitboxed lights and hit registration bugged? No way in hell thank you.

Read above.

[Tegiminis]

Lord of All, on 14 July 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

Sorry lost me when you started on hit points. Maybe you should address armor values, hit box locations and internal/Critical structures and the rest of your post will get read.

Armor and internal values are straight up hit points. His statement wasn't wrong in any way. So really, you just dismissed a perfectly good explanation because you have no clue what you are talking about.

[Prezimonto]

@Tank Boy, I agree, but I think it much more directly nerfs small damage weapons given the scales they currently work on.

If you adjusted small damage weapons to generate 50% less heat it might be okay.... making small damage weapons much more dps friendly vs. large damage friendly.

@ Doc:
What about including a note that you can highlight the portion of the crosshair that's going to be used for the currently selected weapon groups.

So right now you've got a Dot in the middle with a circle around it, which has a cross hatch at 0°, 90°, 180°, 270°. If weapon group one is a single gauss rifle the Dot brightens and the circle dims. If weapon group 2 has a Left Arm Large Laser and a Right Arm Large laser that aren't chain fired, then the left and right cross hatch of the circle brighten and everything else dims. If you enable chain fire, the left and right cross hatch of the circle dim and the central Dot brightens.

This would allow a player to easy set which weapon grouping he wants to use for his cross hair, but maintain the whole cross chair grouping for using secondary weapon groups.

[Erata]

Lord of All, on 14 July 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

Some dismissive bullsh..oes

I don't normally acknowledge the suggestions of the rabble. I'll take you more seriously when you have a Penix Badge and we'll be able to hold elite discussions between privileged board members, space poor. I suggest that you ask the devs to buff your reading comprehension and realize that armor + internals = hit points for all intents and purposes instead of getting so hung up on the semantics from a post that lays itself out as being a layman's generalization.


The basic idea is: Increase the NUMBER OF DAMAGE POINTS a robot can take before it is KILLED BY BEING SHOT to make heat-efficiency matter.
Even in non-stop combat under 270 meters, alpha boats have no heat issues destroying robots because their heat limit and the time it takes to kill a robot are not in conflict.
By making robots tougher without adjusting the weapons, the heat produced causes a brawl to take longer, causing the time taken cooling to affect their sustainable DPS. Efficient brawlers find a place again, directly countering snipers.

All I'm doing is restating everything over and over again in slightly different ways.

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Edited by Erata, 14 July 2013 - 02:15 PM.

[Lord of All]

There really needs to be a filter to just block all posts of morons who like their own posts.

[soarra]

Lord of All, on 14 July 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

There really needs to be a filter to just block all posts of morons who like their own posts.

1st time a warning, 2nd 5 day ban, 3rd a perma ban

[Undead Bane]

Still no reply from any1, related to development team?
0 f-ks given?..

[Erata]

Undead Bane, on 14 July 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

Still no reply from any1, related to development team?
0 f-ks given?..

They're waiting 3 to 4 weeks for the metrics to get back to them so that they can make a decision! These things, they take time. Just be patient.

Lord of All, on 14 July 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

There really needs to be a filter to just block all posts of morons who like their own posts.

I hope the irony of railing on someone for liking oneself isn't lost on someone who named himself THE LORD OF ALL.

Edited by Erata, 14 July 2013 - 07:11 PM.

[Skyefox]

I've been saying for awhile that the adverse effects of high heat need to be accurately represented, decreasing movement speed/torso twist rates, a higher risk of ammo explosions not just when you override after already reaching maximum heat threshold, and like we talked about before Doc, these would stack well with a new weapon convergence model. Pacing your shots and making them count while maintaining your heat curve would be far more beneficial than the "all or nothing" phase MWO is currently trending towards. The biggest detractor for any player is the time spent dead. The longer you're able to participate in a match the more enjoyable it is. Being knocked out early in a game due to the alpha strikes of doom does a lot to discourage new players from fully experiencing the game and being hoooked to play more, and spend more.

[Skyefox]

Otto Cannon, on 13 July 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

At least Paul isn't a tryhard wannabe goon troll. Squawk to you too.

Tegiminis, on 14 July 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

Good job deleting your post where you called TBK a "goon tryhard."

If you're going to say something, at least stand by it.

Reading comprehension is pretty hard.