387 replies to this topic

[JokerVictor]

Doc,

I didn't read through the whole thread, so disregard if this has already been mentioned.

It would be a fantastic idea to add active elements into the aiming reticule (different colors, selector mark, etc) of which weapons are on cooldown or are next up to fire in a chainfire group.

Maybe you can add something to your mock-ups of this nature. Or I could later when I get home.

[DocBach]

by all means - my MSpaint skills kind of suck, any input and discussion is greatly appreciated

[General Taskeen]

Either way this is better than introducing a random cone, which is I assume not what this idea is about, correct?

[Kartr]

JokerVictor, on 27 June 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

Seriously nice OP, I love all your ideas. If the OP's idea (or Homeless Bill's) were implemented, and a revamp of the heat system went into effect. I would gladly start playing again.

As it stands I have no reason to suffer the current meta, at all.

Heat would be dealt with completely if DHS dissipated a full 2pts of heat and all weapons had a 10s cool down like they're supposed to. Of course regular lasers would have to be sped all the way up to instant with pulse lasers being just short of instant.

[DocBach]

Yes, this idea is about opening up group fire damage without introducing a random cone - the players would still have control over how tight their weapons would converge and the points of impact would be directed to a constant point of aim that would change based on conditions.

[JokerVictor]

Quick autoCAD mockup while I'm on lunch. Picture is pretty self explanatory I think.

[Lightfoot]

Unbound Inferno, on 26 June 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:

We are using TT values for weapon damage as the base numbers.

The original Armor numbers were off the old TT values.

Armor got DOUBLED because the FPS convergence caused too much damage.
Old TT rules have a dice randomization for hits, so you never had pinpoint accuracy - which the numbers were from.


IF we are going to continue using the old TT numbers, we need to address convergence which IS an issue here. Denial won't change the fact that the numbers based off a system that relied on inaccuracy is causing problems when we are accurate.

You are conflating an issue that never existed. Armor values were doubled because recharge was doubled. I get it though, Mechs are not tough enough to withstand double recharge once PPCs started to work. That's not Convergence, or PPCs being OP, it is simply that Mechs are not durable enough for quality gameplay with double recharge.

This Topic of removing convergence from Alpha-Strikes presumes a problem that doesn't exist.

The problem is that Mechs are not tough enough right now to withstand double recharge on weapons. So let's fix that. Make the mechs tougher is probably what will happen.

There is nothing wrong with Convergence. In fact MWO challenges you to master 2-3 weapon aiming points now (the third one is invisible, but appears when an actuator is removed from one arm). This thread would nerf that skill that we have learned through hard work and patience. That's just wrong. Sorry.

There is nothing over-powered about Alpha-Striking. You have multiple defenses against the Alpha-Strike at you disposal as a pilot. Lateral movement causes most weapons fired in an Alpha-Strike to spread across the Mech, so opponents are unlikely to even attempt an Alpha on a laterally moving target. This thread is attempting to conflate the seperate issue of Energy boats and AC boats into an Alpha-Strike is OP nerf. The two are not connected and nerfing Alpha's won't fix the root problem, assuming it exists. Your Mech already has 2 to 3 aim points now, so it's very likely that there will not be convergence of all the weapons already. Getting them to line-up is a Skill you have to learn.

I rarely use an Alpha-Strike and my only boat is an Awesome stock mech, but that Alpha-Strike is vital to gameplay. As I mentioned earlier, you use an Alpha Strike on a Mech that is coming straight at you out of foolishness or bravado. You use the Alpha-Strike on poorly built mechs (weapon boating) that shutdown in front of you to take them down before they restart. This works in the competitive level of MechWarrior/MWO, be that ELO or CW Unit vs Unit as a deterrent to weapon-boating. At the competitive level everyone knows that shutting down will likely cost them their mech, so these players do not use mechs that shutdown. Or they learn the hard way. Mechs that boat foolishly even have the moniker, "Shutdown Mechs". A Skill element, again.

I just have to ask why are you contemplating removing all these "Skills", from a game that is being hailed as "The Thinking Person's Shooter" and number 19 on the all-time best 25 shooters list? (Yes, MWO.)

The only problem is Mechs aren't durable enough at present. We should fix that first and see what happens.

Edited by Lightfoot, 27 June 2013 - 09:11 AM.

[Skyfaller]

Yes this would work very nicely. The high heat= slower convergence is a very nice touch too.

[JokerVictor]

Lightfoot, on 27 June 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

Words.

Do you play this game? Seriously, how do you not recognize the root of the problem?

Mechs aren't durable enough because you can pinpoint target them with bolts of lightning that half kill them in one shot. The current armor and damage models would actually be fine if the weapons weren't so ridiculously accurate.

The game was honestly 5x more fun before HSR, when the weapons were inaccurate as hell. Go figure.

[Whompity]

Here's what non-converging torso weapons would look like:


In the first picture, the Atlas (shown from the back) has let his torso and arm reticles converge, and fires off an alpha at the Jenner facing him. The arm weapons (green) converge on the arm reticle and hit where aimed. The torso weapons (pink) don't converge, but strike (or miss) a location relative to the torso reticle that is appropriate for their height-width distance from the center of the Atlas CT. In this case, both miss, as the Jenner is narrow enough to fit between them. Pretty lucky for the Jenner.

In the second picture, the Atlas (again shown from the back) has not let the reticles converge, and fires an alpha at the Jenner. The arm weapons strike the aiming point for the arm reticle, and the torso weapons fire as before, but this time one hits the Jenner CT, as the Atlas pilot has accounted for the offset.

What this means:

- Full alpha strikes become rare: The only grouped weapons that can reliably hit the reticle exactly are arm weapons. A true alpha results in shots being spread all over (figure 1), which lowers the damage to any one location.

- Firing rate slows down: The Atlas pilot above would have to adjust his torso reticle aiming spot between each shot to account for the offset. You would rarely fire arm/torso weapons together.

- Practice makes perfect: In order to become intimately aware of how the torso offsets actually work in a given mech, you'll need to pilot it a lot.

- Less hits, total: Since you'll be moving the reticles around a lot more, and firing them much more independently, there will be a lot more misses.

Less hits, less alphas means no more worrying about whether armour should be doubled (again) or not. The firing action for a mech with multiple torso weapons would be something akin to an old-west gunfighter... shot, pivot a tiny bit, shoot, etc...

These are just my take on it.

Edited by Olivia Maybach, 27 June 2013 - 10:17 AM.

[JokerVictor]

Olivia Maybach, on 27 June 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

Here's what non-converging torso weapons would look like:

All positives in my book. We'd need more ammo per ton though, cause you're right... would be a lot more missing.

[DocBach]

JokerVictor, on 27 June 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

Quick autoCAD mockup while I'm on lunch. Picture is pretty self explanatory I think.

I like the concept but it could be too busy; I'm on a 15" laptop, could be difficult to see all of that especially as the reticle converges smaller.

[Lightfoot]

JokerVictor, on 27 June 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

Do you play this game? Seriously, how do you not recognize the root of the problem?

Mechs aren't durable enough because you can pinpoint target them with bolts of lightning that half kill them in one shot. The current armor and damage models would actually be fine if the weapons weren't so ridiculously accurate.

The game was honestly 5x more fun before HSR, when the weapons were inaccurate as hell. Go figure.

Yes, but I don't have a problem with any of MWO. It is very similar to previous MechWarrior games with the exception that Mechs aren't durable enough for double recharge on weapons. This makes it hard for newer players to learn how to play because they just don't survive very long or learn why walking into 3 to 4 opponents field of fire is not something you walk away from. Convergence nerfs won't change that either.

MechWarrior hits are scored by the hitboxes on Mechs so before you totally destroy MWO and player accuracy I would look at hitbox adjustments. Make them smaller or overlap them so they produce a Convergence effect.

[DocBach]

It wouldn't destroy player accuracy, it would just make a player have to work for it.

[JokerVictor]

DocBach, on 27 June 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

I like the concept but it could be too busy; I'm on a 15" laptop, could be difficult to see all of that especially as the reticle converges smaller.

Yeah, I kinda just threw that together in 10 minutes with basically zero thought. I'll clean it up later, because it is pretty awful looking.

[BlackWidow]

DocBach,

I have been pointing out the GROSS imbalance that comes with not having complete understanding of the mediums in question moving from TT to FPS.

Allowing pin point accuracy while maintaining, basically, the same armor / weapon / distance values is broken from the start.

And I wish people would stop misusing the word SKILL so much in these discussions. It's a moose point and click.

It's not like you are actually running around while holding a heavy weapon.

[Unbound Inferno]

Lightfoot, on 27 June 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

You are conflating an issue that never existed. Armor values were doubled because recharge was doubled. I get it though, Mechs are not tough enough to withstand double recharge once PPCs started to work. That's not Convergence, or PPCs being OP, it is simply that Mechs are not durable enough for quality gameplay with double recharge.

This Topic of removing convergence from Alpha-Strikes presumes a problem that doesn't exist.

The problem is that Mechs are not tough enough right now to withstand double recharge on weapons. So let's fix that. Make the mechs tougher is probably what will happen.

There is nothing wrong with Convergence. In fact MWO challenges you to master 2-3 weapon aiming points now (the third one is invisible, but appears when an actuator is removed from one arm). This thread would nerf that skill that we have learned through hard work and patience. That's just wrong. Sorry.

There is nothing over-powered about Alpha-Striking. You have multiple defenses against the Alpha-Strike at you disposal as a pilot. Lateral movement causes most weapons fired in an Alpha-Strike to spread across the Mech, so opponents are unlikely to even attempt an Alpha on a laterally moving target. This thread is attempting to conflate the seperate issue of Energy boats and AC boats into an Alpha-Strike is OP nerf. The two are not connected and nerfing Alpha's won't fix the root problem, assuming it exists. Your Mech already has 2 to 3 aim points now, so it's very likely that there will not be convergence of all the weapons already. Getting them to line-up is a Skill you have to learn.

I rarely use an Alpha-Strike and my only boat is an Awesome stock mech, but that Alpha-Strike is vital to gameplay. As I mentioned earlier, you use an Alpha Strike on a Mech that is coming straight at you out of foolishness or bravado. You use the Alpha-Strike on poorly built mechs (weapon boating) that shutdown in front of you to take them down before they restart. This works in the competitive level of MechWarrior/MWO, be that ELO or CW Unit vs Unit as a deterrent to weapon-boating. At the competitive level everyone knows that shutting down will likely cost them their mech, so these players do not use mechs that shutdown. Or they learn the hard way. Mechs that boat foolishly even have the moniker, "Shutdown Mechs". A Skill element, again.

I just have to ask why are you contemplating removing all these "Skills", from a game that is being hailed as "The Thinking Person's Shooter" and number 19 on the all-time best 25 shooters list? (Yes, MWO.)

The only problem is Mechs aren't durable enough at present. We should fix that first and see what happens.

Are we playing the same game?

Last I knew you couldn't remove structural hardpoints like Acuators in mechs, but I only have Catapults so I don't have that lower one that doesn't exist anyway and I don't have an "invisible third crosshair" to deal with.

Also, let's make sure you understand the issue;

It is NOT the Alpha Strike. It is the ability to fire GROUPED weapons WITH the addition of PINPOINT ACCURACY - which is from that convergence. Some boat's "group" is the only weapons they carry; Dual AC-20, the 4,5-6 PPC Boats. The ability to fire is not, and never should be in question - regardless of how the pilot chooses to act. The result is.

Because of that we have the most basic issue with numbers. The TT armor values, now doubled need to contend with the weapon damage (even if it is with double recharge - but that's another debate) but its that weapon damage ALL HITTING THE SAME LOCATION. Within TT the random dice had a small chance of hitting the same spot with a few out of multiple shots.

Because FPS convergence and the system's inherit easy accuracy that you are defending allows all hits to land at the same point we have those pinpoint damage hits landing at once, not having one AC-20 hit the left arm and the other AC-20 hitting a leg. the PPC boats might hit the CT, LT, RT and an arm or two. Do you see the difference with the numbers?

What we have is a faster game that allows ALL that damage to hit a single point all at once. PPC and ML Haunchbacks are the best benefactors being able to boat up on all that damage and hit a single point, devastating a mech in record time. NEVER would it have happened in TT - of which these numbers and the basic system are from.

So, we are arguing for more inaccuracy to bring this game back in line and feel like the battletech lore it was supposed to be, or we might also be willing to accept less damage per certain weapons to attain the same result - it all depends. But it does not and would never diminish the issue of how pinpoint accuracy is not working with the TT vales that came from an inaccurate system.

[Uriah Fable]

Great job Doc, some well thought out ideas there.

After reading thru this and all the replies I think the problem is (IMO as I see it mind you) is that people see TT and automatically think we WANT a recreation. It's just a reference us old time and hard core BT fans use as a marker to the "flavor" of game style we want. So get over the TT references already

Others spew thoughts about skill in an FPS, etc etc., when those of us fanatic about keeping something we love know that this is NOT meant to be a FPS but a Combat Simulator (as was promised) I think Hawkens has space if it's FPS you want

Edited by Uriah Fable, 27 June 2013 - 11:15 AM.

[Daeso]

I think aspects of these mechanics would add an entirely new level of strategic gameplay to MWO and I am all for working out strategy. What we have now does not require a whole lot of brain power to execute. Currently we're all about min/maxing each and every weight class with high pinpoint/alpha builds and that really provides us with almost no strategy to the way MWO is currently being played. A person can only get decimated for so long by PPC and high alpha boats before they just say F it and build one for themselves. I think this last tourney/challenge showed how ridiculous some of these builds are becoming.

+1

[Quinid]

I never understood why the mechs were so accurate in the first place. Great write up. It makes sense
I just would like to add, that there should be one hell of a recoil if you are alpha striking(non-energy) that should make you less accurate in the first place.