165 replies to this topic

[p00k]

Remember how in closed beta, PGI made this big deal about how every weight class had a role, and how bigger didn't necessarily mean better? And yet, especially in the last few patches, the exact opposite has been true. It's been go-big-or-go-home. Assaults dominate the field. Lights and Mediums get 1- or 2-shot by their heavier brethren.

Well, apparently, this is working as intended. And PGI wants to make a buck off it.

See Project Phoenix. Unlike Founders, when we were all bright eyed bushy tailed optimistic gamers filled with the hope that PGI would rejuvenate the IP, and where if you chose to be an elite founder you could choose one of the four mechs, PGI tosses that purchase model out the window. While there was debate among elite founders which one to get (i went with the atlas), plenty of people chose jenners or hunchbacks as well.

Unlike the founders program though, Phoenix starts you off with light mechs, and only as you pay more do you get the heavier ones. Not hard to read between the lines here. In a meta dominated by assaults, if you want the assault mech, you have to buy the most expensive option. Because who are we kidding? The Battlemaster will clearly be better than the Locust. It HAS to be better. It financially benefits PGI for it to be better. And Assaults will continue to be better than their lighter counterparts. Not different, not playing a different role. Better.

So, thanks but no thanks. If I'm still playing this game when that content is released--if this game is still up and running when that content is released, I'll buy the assault mech with what will probably be upwards of 400m cbills i'll have by then, and stomp the talon/storm/guardian tier phoenixers. I'll just have to live with the knowledge that the overlord phoenixers got a bunch of mechbays and premium time and 9 crap mechs with their 3 decent ones. AND MEDALLIONS!

******** pgi, get off your ***** and fix the single-variable changes that have been broken for months now

[Kataris]

"Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny"

[Tezcatli]

I still see lights. Sometimes it's like 4 lights and 4 assaults. Though usually that's because they're premade teams. 4 lights will eat a straggler or someone who ran up too far ahead.

The game does feel like it's mostly Assaults. Then lights. And then a Wang hero mech. With maybe one or two mediums.

Edited by Tezcatli, 25 June 2013 - 01:37 PM.

[BladeSplint]

You've never played against a competent light or medium pilot have you?



I've got plenty more of those if you're saying it was a "lucky game"

[AimRobot]

Lights/mediums are garbage atm.
There is like no advantage in going in a small mech, other than speed which only works vs less good players.

[Lord Ikka]

Then don't buy. No one is forcing you to purchase anything.

Edited by Lord Ikka, 25 June 2013 - 02:15 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

cry cry cry

whine whine whine

assaults are worth more because they are assaults, pretty obvious stuff. 80 bucks to get it all and 120 days of premium time is an exceptional deal, nevermind the 12 extra mechbays you get and the medallions. 80 bucks is what? a day of mowing lawns? get to it.

[Mercules]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 25 June 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

80 bucks is what? a day of mowing lawns? get to it.

I was thinking it was skipping one of those nights out with my friend and his wife and playing MWO with him instead. $40 on food, $40 on alcohol, yup... one night in.

[soapyfrog]

AimRobot, on 25 June 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

Lights/mediums are garbage atm.
There is like no advantage in going in a small mech, other than speed which only works vs less good players.

My top 10 winningest mechs (90% solo drop):

Quickdraw 4G: 2.23 (29:13)
Spider 5V: 2.08 (50:24)
Jenner 7K: 1.96 (49:25)
Cicada X-5: 1.85 (13:7)
Blackjack BJ-1X: 1.83 (42:23)
Blackjack BJ-3: 1.76 (44:25)
Jenner 7D: 1.75 (28:16)
Highlander 733P: 1.61 (37:23)
Jagermech 6S: 1.52 (38:25)
Highlander 732: 1.42 (34:24)

2 assault, 2 heavy, 2 medium, 4 light.

Yeah theres a problem with lights and mediums... apparently they win games too much

[Galen Crayn]

I am so happy that i am a casual gamer loving Battletech... You dont want them, dont buy them. I have bought the 12 mechs for 2 hours In "normal" games people still playing light and mediums. Dont care what "Pro`s" like you are doing. I would say some ballance fixes, more Maps, weight limit, ui 2.0 and cw will be enough for most and you will see enough medium and lights ingame. If you have 12 Mechs and for example all together they only allowed to weight 700t you HAVE to play them... Problem solved

[Straylight]

BladeSplint, on 25 June 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

You've never played against a competent light or medium pilot have you?

I think part of OP's point is that competent Light and Medium pilots are rare, because taking that same competency level into a Heavy or Assault yields proportionately better performance.

That is to say, bigger 'mechs perform better, regardless of how skilled the pilot is. There's also a tipping point (right around 70 tons) where tonnage not only augments skill, but compensates for it. If I make a mistake in my Spider, I'm toast. I can post 300 damage, 3 kill matches, but I have to play nearly flawlessly in order to do so. In a good Heavy or Assault, I can be sloppy, slow to react, oblivious to my surroundings and generally act like a sleep-deprived lunatic and still pull four or five kills out of a match.

This isn't really due to inherent imbalances between mech types, either. The imbalance lies in the game's reward structure: the roles that Lights and fast Mediums excel at--spotting, reconnaissance, harassment, base capping, and so on--yield FAR fewer rewards than simply slugging it out with the other team. Bigger mechs are better at that, as they should be, but the game's overemphasis on this makes them proportionately more valuable than they should be.

Lights performing their intended role absolutely wins games. What it doesn't do, though, is pay well. What's worse, is almost all of the rewards that Lights are good at earning aren't individual rewards, but team rewards. A Raven that spends the entire game tagging targets, providing ECM coverage and sensor data, capturing resource nodes, and generally doing what a Raven is supposed to do makes 60-80K CB and a few hundred XP. The Cataphract that just rushes straight into the brawl makes everything the Raven does (because those rewards are all shared by the team) AND an additional 100K CB and 1000 XP for damage, components, kills and assists.


We'll see if CW and better gametypes changes this. As it stands, though, it IS a problem that needs to be addressed.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

So mediums and lights are useless? News to me. Here are some recent numbers. (recent as in a few days ago minus the spider. Spiderbro was about a week ago.) The BJ uses 4 SPLs and 2 MGs. I cored fresh Atlas and 2 cats that match. The dps you can put out with a low ping is stupid fast compared to fatties who overheat after 2 shots.



To be fair I do win the most on my Jager, but I'm very proud of the fact I can pull these numbers without using any of the n00b weapons such as Gauss, AC/20, or PPCs. Just 1 ac/5. 1 ac/10 2 MLs, and 2 SSRMs absolutely destroy most boaters.

Edited by lockwoodx, 25 June 2013 - 02:40 PM.

[Cold Macaroni]

Sure, there are still some role issues to be worked out (some I can think of off the top of my head have to do with a comparative lack of XP/CBill rewards for support roles), but saying that lights and mediums are useless? I'm glad someone told me, I might have gone on for MONTHS in my Centurion and Jenner, coring, scouting, flanking and generally ******** my cockpit in happiness.

Now I know better. I am useless.

Edited by Cold Macaroni, 25 June 2013 - 02:33 PM.

[DocBach]

Light 'mechs have an edge over mediums for their smaller hit boxes and wonky damage registration. Mediums that move slower than 90kph are easily 1 shotted in the current assault 'Mech PPC meta.

P00k is very much right in his assessment.

[Yelland]

This is basically anecdotal from my experience so take it with a grain - several times recently and especially two matches this morning come to mind. I was running a Highlander and remaining PUG was all heavy/light and a Hunch. Opposition had 4 Atlai - four. Not sure how matchmaking figured that out… We won.

Next match soon after I was running HGN again, and there were couple STK and mix of Hvy/Med. Opposition had two Atlas. We got destroyed.

I think in theory crafting an 8-man Assault PUG should be too overwhelming against any odds. Not sure it really works out that way. (Not counting an 8-man group. Not much hope - if they are any good at teamwork.)

PUG matches go either way and I cannot always figure out why. It's not always "well, they had more Assault than us." Sometimes there are 3 or more Assault on my team and we lose.

The weekend of 6/14 I felt pretty good, won often, killed a lot creeping my K/D up, and died.

Last weekend (6/21) felt like I could not hit a dropship if I was standing on it. Died, lost and died some more. Yet, I believe the average number of Assaults was lower due to Challenge.

If Med/Light are really worthless, and maybe they are. I am not directly disputing it, but I like my CDA.

What fixes them? Are they worthless in TT? Understood it probably cannot be applied straight across; how does balance, function, usefulness, work there? Is this a situation where the current game types do not support roles as expected? Something that might be resolved/improved with Community War and additional game modes?

BTW is Atlas plural really Atlai (BT lore)? Or did someone make that up?

[Tezcatli]

You know what I don't see as much anymore? Commandos. My brother had a Commando. He said ever since one of the previous patches. It's like he gets insta gibbed. The other lights I still see represented. Especially Jenners lightly.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

DocBach, on 25 June 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Light 'mechs have an edge over mediums for their smaller hit boxes and wonky damage registration. Mediums that move slower than 90kph are easily 1 shotted in the current assault 'Mech PPC meta.

P00k is very much right in his assessment.

None of my mechs move over 80kph except for the spider and NONE of them use that cheese ******** ECM crap players use as a crutch. My jager that absolutely wrecks face brawling lumbers at a comfortable 54kph. If you know proper tactics and rely on the kiddies being impatient, you'll win more often than not.

Tezcatli, on 25 June 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

You know what I don't see as much anymore? Commandos. My brother had a Commando. He said ever since one of the previous patches. It's like he gets insta gibbed. The other lights I still see represented. Especially Jenners lightly.

I had to sell my commando for a spider because every hit connected on him and I never stood a chance vs alphas legging me in one hit. Mediums can withstand enough to get close and kill boaters, but lights have to play dodg'ems.

Edited by lockwoodx, 25 June 2013 - 02:39 PM.

[Rasako]

BladeSplint, on 25 June 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

You've never played against a competent light or medium pilot have you?



I've got plenty more of those if you're saying it was a "lucky game"

in a cicada that's hardly anything to be proud of, it might as well be a light for as fast and agile as it is, most workhorse medium mechs are total **** right now though, and after the SRM changes there's no reason to play them because they lost any threat potential that they had. I used to pull 700 damage average on my centurion-A before the SRM changes and now I dont even touch the thing because its total ****

Edited by Rasako, 25 June 2013 - 02:46 PM.

[AimRobot]

soapyfrog, on 25 June 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

My top 10 winningest mechs (90% solo drop):

Quickdraw 4G: 2.23 (29:13)
Spider 5V: 2.08 (50:24)
Jenner 7K: 1.96 (49:25)
Cicada X-5: 1.85 (13:7)
Blackjack BJ-1X: 1.83 (42:23)
Blackjack BJ-3: 1.76 (44:25)
Jenner 7D: 1.75 (28:16)
Highlander 733P: 1.61 (37:23)
Jagermech 6S: 1.52 (38:25)
Highlander 732: 1.42 (34:24)

2 assault, 2 heavy, 2 medium, 4 light.

Yeah theres a problem with lights and mediums... apparently they win games too much

Only cause they can flee when close to dieing, cant use win ratio.
Btw I play assault most of my time and i complain about light/medium being underpowered.
I see small mechs fighting their heart out and gets ****** shot by noobs in big mechs.

Edited by AimRobot, 25 June 2013 - 02:46 PM.

[DocBach]

i understand how to play successfully in a medium 'Mech - however, if one high-alpha assault manages to hit you once or twice, the game is completely over for you.

The Jager is not a light or medium 'Mech, and the slow speed indicates you probably use the ever-popular dual AC/20 build, which is one of the biggest reason mediums are bad in this game - you can easily aim and put gigantic damage to a single spot and wipe them out instantly. This is bad.