77 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Livewyr, on 26 June 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

Sorry Doc, have to disagree with you here.

Compare PPC to AC10
7 tons vs 12
3 crits vs 7
UA vs limited explosive ammo
8 heat versus 3 (only attribute mitigated by Double heat sinks and a larger engine)
540 range vs 450
2000 speed vs 1100
90min versus 0

Lots of advantages.. not much disadvantage.
Need to kick the heat back up, that's what kept it in check.

(And then add heat penalties for the overall meta)

Have to disagree.

Have said it before, will say it again. Take a K2 out with 2 Gauss. You got Everyone's attention, and usually high damage/KDr unless you just suck. (or your PUG team does).

Take same mech out with 2 ER PPCS or PPCs. Compare results. The dual PPC version, used well will be respectable, but hardly amazing. Why? Because the PPC in and of itself is fine. The continued problem is the ability to boat, and overheat without penalty, and the pinpoint convergence/accuracy. Outside of their "optimal" range, all weapons SHOULD have a cone of fire, (since you know, it is past their OPTIMAL range), and when moving over 50% throttle, they should likewise have one.

But those are their OWN issues, not problems with the PPC in and of itself. I dont mind a mild increase in heat, but having run many mechs with 1-3 PPCs, I have never found them NEAR as effective as my dual ac/20s, twin Gauss, triple UAC5 type builds. But totally agree the 4-6 PPC builds are broken beyond words.

[CancR]

No you morons.... Nerfing a weapon because high tonnage boating weapons hurts lights and mediums who use at max 2 ppcs who cant stuff as many DHS or SHS and cant rely on 1 shot 1 kill alphas.

Please stop begging for the devs to hold your hand, and instead ask the devs to balance the game to skill instead.

[Panimu]

Fire at random speeds (the speed of the projectile that is).

Problem solved, you're welcome.

[Bishop Steiner]

Panimu, on 26 June 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

Fire at random speeds (the speed of the projectile that is).

Problem solved, you're welcome.

that makes any sort of remote sense, HOW?

[t9nv3]

Nerfing the PPC is an absolutely rediculous move. The PPC is fine the way it is. Do we really need to punish the vast majority of the community because a few idiots like to boat PPC's? I think with a little fine-tuning, the PGI stacking penalty offers the best solution. It's not perfect, but at least its diplomatic.

[Obadiah333]

Don't you know? The silent majority likes PPC's where they are. You know, those same guys who wanted 3rd person view.

[John MatriX82]

DocBach, on 26 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

the PPC by itself is in a good place. the problem is three or more of them being able to be fired, in conjunction with out weapon systems, all into one neat hole.

Yep we need a system that prevents boating 4-5-6 ppcs. Heat penalty won't do anything, PPCs and LRMs aren't in a bad spot, what breaks both weapons systems is the boating.

Add that SRMs are worthless and that the seismic sensor is too neat and brawling has become a secondary option to either both of those weapons. Bump srms, prevent boating (also of SRMs and LRMs) and we'll have a decent game, keep free hardpoints like it is now, nerf the PPCs and everyone will be switching to LL/ERLL boats and the cycle will begin again.

[hammerreborn]

Obadiah333, on 26 June 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

Don't you know? The silent majority likes PPC's where they are. You know, those same guys who wanted 3rd person view.

It has nothign to do with the silent majority. Read my post. Any change to PPCs directly does nothing but hinder Spiders and other small mechs that can't use 4-6 of them.

The only solution to the boating issue is the meta around the boating. Hardpoint restrictions won't work because whatever mech allows you to boat the most becomes the defacto mech to use. The heat boating solution may work, but it will more likely revolve around macros or switching to 3 ppc + guass combos instead of 4 ppcs, which I'm not sure is any better in the long run.

What needs fixing is the heat system as a whole. The heat cap for some god forsaken reason can get far too high in assaults, which is why a Jenner melts firing 6 medium lasers while 4 PPC stalkers seem like they can fire all day. Compound onto the unsensical pilot bonus and you have a huge issue on your hand.

As mentioned earlier, if you want to eliminate 4PPC stalkers, you need to drop the heat cap, and THEN AND ONLY THEN, look at the heat generated by PPCs. You also want to start implementing heat penalities over 115% instead of the nearly unattainable 150% its at now.

[Rahnu]

Livewyr, on 26 June 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

Sorry Doc, have to disagree with you here.

Compare PPC to AC10
7 tons vs 12
3 crits vs 7
UA vs limited explosive ammo
8 heat versus 3 (only attribute mitigated by Double heat sinks and a larger engine)
540 range vs 450
2000 speed vs 1100
90min versus 0

Lots of advantages.. not much disadvantage.
Need to kick the heat back up, that's what kept it in check.

(And then add heat penalties for the overall meta)

Wrong comparison. Compare it to the large laser (the other workhorse heavy energy weapon):
Large Laser - PPC
9 damage / 10 damage
5 tons / 7 tons
2 crits / 3 crits
7 heat + duration / 8 heat
540m range / 450m
2000 speed / Hitscan
No duration / 1 second duration
90m minimum / no minimum

IMO, the instantaneous damage nature of the PPC makes it outright superior to large lasers. This, coupled with the fact that it now generates the same amount of heat as a large laser (a little less, actually, accounting for dissipation time), means that there is effectively no good reason to field a large laser over a PPC. You will never, ever be able to out-DPS someone if you are wielding a large laser boat versus a PPC boat, not to mention the fact that the duration means you will never, ever be able to apply all of that damage to a single subsystem like PPCs can.

I've seen way too many people not taking note of the laser duration. It is a HUGE downside. An ENORMOUS disadvantage. It is easily the one thing that keeps lasers from being viable in the high-alpha meta we currently are stuck with.

The high-alpha weapons all need more downsides to compensate for how powerful they are. PPCs in particular are completely out-of-whack after their heat buff, and need to have that reverted back to their previous values before large lasers could ever be considered useful again (much less competitive).

[CancR]

Please let stupid threads die.

[Karl Streiger]

CancR, on 26 June 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

Please let stupid threads die.

So you have the opinion that PPCs are fine?
Well lets have a look
3 Large Laser vs 2 PPCs
stupid example - however based on weight and heat - the 3 Large Laser must beat the dual PPCs.
They don't
At nearly any time i would prefer the PPCs....lower heat - instant damage - aiming once - hit with 20 dmg.

Large Laser - no lead but aiming 1 full sec. At best dmg of 27 - but that will happens only at standing targets.

[Lightfoot]

PPCs are not overpowered, Ballistics are much more powerful and very efficient at the same time.

I know it's a newb thing to boat energy weapons and accept the shutdowns, but adding heat to overheated energy weapons won't solve newbie exploits. I say newb because if your mech stands still for 5 seconds it should have suffered an alpha-strike through the cockpit. MWO has headshots on mechs. So if your mech restarts, you know the competition is not thinking.

Anyway, you stop newbs from boating energy weapons with the high chance of Mech destruction if you override automatic shutdown. That works and nothing else will.

Let's compare Ballistics to PPCs.

Here is the 80 ton AWS-9M , modified to carry 22 DHS and 3xERPPCs. It has no CASE or AMS so it is very vulnerable. It shutsdown on normal heat maps on the third salvo for 5 seconds. Firing on restart cause it to shutdown for close to 10 seconds and it may take heat damage on some hot maps. It's max damage is 30. This is one of those Mechs you would nerf more.

Here is the 70 ton CTF-3D modified to carry 2x Gauss, 60 rounds, 3x MLAS. It has CASE and AMS and is very resilient. I keep both Gauss 70 percent of the time, rarely do I lose both. It never overheats from the 2xGauss and it has easy access to the MLAS so it can put out 45 damage alpha-strikes numerous times. It has rarely run low on ammo. So it just pumps out 30-45 damage every 4 seconds and never shutsdown.

Well, why shouldn't the CTF-3D be nerfed first? It's way more powerful and tougher with probably triple the DPS of the 3xERPPC Awesome which would spend most of it's time shutdown or waiting 10 seconds to cool down between firing the ERPPCs.

But I get it. The matches are just too short since the PPC was fixed, just don't try to tell me it's OP.

[Tezcatli]

PPCs were buffed back when they couldn't hit anything. They got a faster travel time and a lower heat. But when HSR came into affect. Suddenly we have elite level snipers delivering 4-6 PPCs on CTs from across the zone. I have no problem with the weapon being as strong as it is. I have a problem with the fact you can boat 4 or 6. Increase the heat, if only by 1. With the new heat penalties. It might actually discourage such builds. If mounting more then 3 gives you a heat penalty, combined with the potential to damage yourself on overheat, then we might see people treat over heating like something that's serious.

If they nerf the heat on them. I won't have a problem with them returning the cooldown to what it was before.

[3rdworld]

We cannot mess with PPCs until we get machine guns fixed.

You guys should know this by now.

[TheBossHammer]

Livewyr, on 26 June 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

Sorry Doc, have to disagree with you here.

Compare PPC to AC10
7 tons vs 12
3 crits vs 7
UA vs limited explosive ammo
8 heat versus 3 (only attribute mitigated by Double heat sinks and a larger engine)
540 range vs 450
2000 speed vs 1100
90min versus 0

Lots of advantages.. not much disadvantage.
Need to kick the heat back up, that's what kept it in check.

(And then add heat penalties for the overall meta)

No, they don't need to kick the heat up on the PPC, they need to double the ammo for the AC10 and up its fire rate by a significant amount. It's not a bad comparison because the PPC is particularly amazing, its a bad comparison because the AC10 is downright terrible. Fixing the PPC will just make the AC20 and the Gauss Rifle pwn everyone again, like they did in closed beta. That's why Piranha hasn't knee-jerked yet on this one.

The PPC is not OP. Right now the PPC, the Gauss Rifle, and the AC20 are all in the range where their burst is capable of overpowering anything else in one alpha and the PPC leads that charge because the Stalker has enough hardpoints and tons to run 6 of them safely. Up the power on everything else and the problem will be solved, but don't change the PPC, the Gauss Rifle or the AC20, they are all fine right now. The only nerf still needed is a 20% drop in the overall heat cap with a 20% increase in heat dissipation (to prevent stupid large alphas from working, Piranha's fix isn't going to do enough on its own but this would be enough in concert with their fix), but even that can be avoided if medlas, smalllas, SRMs and etc could alpha hard enough to knock out a light mech in the 2 bursts that the big three can do.

[Seleucus Ontuas]

Lightfoot, on 26 June 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

PPCs are not overpowered, Ballistics are much more powerful and very efficient at the same time.

I know it's a newb thing to boat energy weapons and accept the shutdowns, but adding heat to overheated energy weapons won't solve newbie exploits. I say newb because if your mech stands still for 5 seconds it should have suffered an alpha-strike through the cockpit. MWO has headshots on mechs. So if your mech restarts, you know the competition is not thinking.

Anyway, you stop newbs from boating energy weapons with the high chance of Mech destruction if you override automatic shutdown. That works and nothing else will.

Let's compare Ballistics to PPCs.

Here is the 80 ton AWS-9M , modified to carry 22 DHS and 3xERPPCs. It has no CASE or AMS so it is very vulnerable. It shutsdown on normal heat maps on the third salvo for 5 seconds. Firing on restart cause it to shutdown for close to 10 seconds and it may take heat damage on some hot maps. It's max damage is 30. This is one of those Mechs you would nerf more.

Here is the 70 ton CTF-3D modified to carry 2x Gauss, 60 rounds, 3x MLAS. It has CASE and AMS and is very resilient. I keep both Gauss 70 percent of the time, rarely do I lose both. It never overheats from the 2xGauss and it has easy access to the MLAS so it can put out 45 damage alpha-strikes numerous times. It has rarely run low on ammo. So it just pumps out 30-45 damage every 4 seconds and never shutsdown.

Well, why shouldn't the CTF-3D be nerfed first? It's way more powerful and tougher with probably triple the DPS of the 3xERPPC Awesome which would spend most of it's time shutdown or waiting 10 seconds to cool down between firing the ERPPCs.

But I get it. The matches are just too short since the PPC was fixed, just don't try to tell me it's OP.

Your builds are bad. The Awesome should be equipped with normal PPCs and neither of your mechs need CASE. Your Cataphract is using the wrong variant for that build; you'd be better off in a 4X or Ilya though in all honestly, a Jagermech is a much better Gauss platform. Furthermore, the Medium lasers are largely superflous, and you'd have to be within 270 meters to your full OP 45 point alpha. You know, that alpha that a Highlander can dish out from three times the range.

Furthermore, what you're forgetting that is that the 3D was nerfed first. Way back in December. With Gauss explosions. Take your normal STD Engine 4 PPC Stalker against your rather bad XL Engine 2 Gauss Phract, and the Stalker will win. Hell, I'd bet the Stalker would win against two of your Phracts.

But, you know I have no problem with the AC20, Gauss, and PPCs getting bumped up to a 5 second cooldown, with AC20 and PPCs both going up one point of heat. If that's how you want it, no skin off my back.

Edited by Seleucus Ontuas, 26 June 2013 - 09:49 AM.

[Eximar]

http://mwomercs.com/...14#entry2442114

[Tom Sawyer]

I think not to a nef. But a HELL YES to a heat scale.

Mech at 100 percent heat? Shutdown
110? somehing has to break, maybe a ppc blow up or such
120? Have a HUD crack in the cockpit, electrical blowouts
130? Have yourself aka the pilot blackout for 10 seconds
140 or more? Death. Cooked Meat. Bacon!

[Boogie Man]

CancR, on 26 June 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

Please let stupid threads die.

Stop posting in threads and making them stupid then.

[Bunko]

PPCs, SRMS, ACs, all different fruits, can't compare apples to oranges here.

PPC being an energy weapon, the only really disadvantage is heat, which MWO lowered from TT values. PPC needs to be upped 2, ERPPC needs to be upped 4. Raising the heat will prevent mass use. Range for PPC should have the same range as an AC5, ERPPC should have a little less than an AC2, per TT, MWO has this.

SRMs, being missiles they are lighter than Cannons but are not pinpoint damage like Cannons. Damage needs to be increased to 2. Anyone here really think SRMs don't need to be buffed? Range should be the same as a ML, pre TT, MWO has this.

ACs, the heaviest weapons, with little heat, and pinpoint damage. Damage of the cannon is in the name of the cannon ( AC10 is 10 ), MWO has this. Range is also the same in MWO than TT, AC10 should have the same range as a LL, AC20 should have the same range as a ML.

Thing is MWO has not changed damage/range from TT much, but heat they have played with a lot. They generally speaking have increased the heat on smaller energy weapons by 25% and have decreased larger energy weapons heat by 25%, thus making larger energy weapons ( LLs and PPCs ) more attractive and causing other weapons to become unfavorable.

Additionally, not having any penalties for heat till you have reached 100% has made heat even less of an issue, but that's not weapons balance, that's game balance.

Edited by Bunko, 26 June 2013 - 10:15 AM.