77 replies to this topic

[Trauglodyte]

hammerreborn, on 26 June 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

It has nothign to do with the silent majority. Read my post. Any change to PPCs directly does nothing but hinder Spiders and other small mechs that can't use 4-6 of them.

The only solution to the boating issue is the meta around the boating. Hardpoint restrictions won't work because whatever mech allows you to boat the most becomes the defacto mech to use. The heat boating solution may work, but it will more likely revolve around macros or switching to 3 ppc + guass combos instead of 4 ppcs, which I'm not sure is any better in the long run.

What needs fixing is the heat system as a whole. The heat cap for some god forsaken reason can get far too high in assaults, which is why a Jenner melts firing 6 medium lasers while 4 PPC stalkers seem like they can fire all day. Compound onto the unsensical pilot bonus and you have a huge issue on your hand.

As mentioned earlier, if you want to eliminate 4PPC stalkers, you need to drop the heat cap, and THEN AND ONLY THEN, look at the heat generated by PPCs. You also want to start implementing heat penalities over 115% instead of the nearly unattainable 150% its at now.

The problem with your suggestion of changing the heat scale plus dissipation, something that Mustrum keeps talking about, is asking the Devs to retool a major portion of the game and then rebalance it. It is much easier to make a weapon adjustment because it is a small change and easy to tweak without rewriting lots of code causing a major problem as a result.

The PPC needs to be 10 heat and the ER needs to go back to 13 (really needs to be 15) just like the Lrg Laser needs to go back to 8/8 and the ER version needs to go to 8/12. Unfortunately, the end result of that would be people using more heat sinks combined with LRg Lasers instead of PPCs which would result in the same amount of long ranged energy damage but on a much more efficient scale. Of course, you can torso twist beam damage but it wouldn't change much of anything.

What really needs to happen is a heat scale (not this anti-boating issue) and a heat nerf.

[hammerreborn]

Trauglodyte, on 26 June 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

The problem with your suggestion of changing the heat scale plus dissipation, something that Mustrum keeps talking about, is asking the Devs to retool a major portion of the game and then rebalance it. It is much easier to make a weapon adjustment because it is a small change and easy to tweak without rewriting lots of code causing a major problem as a result.

The PPC needs to be 10 heat and the ER needs to go back to 13 (really needs to be 15) just like the Lrg Laser needs to go back to 8/8 and the ER version needs to go to 8/12. Unfortunately, the end result of that would be people using more heat sinks combined with LRg Lasers instead of PPCs which would result in the same amount of long ranged energy damage but on a much more efficient scale. Of course, you can torso twist beam damage but it wouldn't change much of anything.

What really needs to happen is a heat scale (not this anti-boating issue) and a heat nerf.

But increasing the heat doesn't DO ANYTHING ABOUT BOATING. Read.

Do you honestly think a 6 ppc stalker gives a damn about heat? As long as he can fire twice without shutting down he is more than content to put 120 points of damage into someones center torso before it happens. And the only thing allowing that is the HEAT CAP, not the heat of the PPC.

Let's just look at a hypothetical situation. Let's assume engines and chassis weights nothing.

Let's put a 4 PPC jenner with 10 doubles against a 4 PPC stalker with 18 doubles. (Note that you can actually do a 3 PPC Jenner, but that's besides the point for this writing).

Any changes to one will inherently effect the other. Right now, would you argue both are overpowered and have too high pinpoint alphas? I would.

Now let's look again at the possible nerfs.

Cooldown: Changes nothing to either, you merely have to wait longer to fire again. Makes PPCs more heat efficient since more time is required between firings.

Heat: Effects both unequally.

A Jenner with 10 doubles (no skills factored in) has a heat cap of 50. A stalker with 18 has a heat cap of 61.2.

If heat is increased to 15 like you said, 4 ERPPCs generate 60 heat. The Jenner now becomes unfeasible while the stalker notices no change at all, since he still retains the ability to fire twice before shutdown, more or less his current situation.


Now lets look at the spider.

The spider has a heat cap of 50, same as the Jenner. At a dissipation rate of 2 heat a second, the spider dissipates 8 heat every cooldown period of the PPC, making the PPC effectively generate 7 heat. The spider can now only fire 5-8 times depending on the map before shutdown, while presently (and most certainly in TT) being completely heat efficient.

So you've only harmed smaller mechs, while doing nothing to larger, as I stated before.

The heat cap needs to come the hell down before any balance using heat can be implemented and have any realistic expectation of results.


Heat scale is the same. THE BOATERS DO NOT CARE ABOUT SHUTTING DOWN. UNTIL THIS MAKES THEM EXPLODE IT WILL DO NOTHING TO DETER THEM OR STOP BOATING IN ANY FASHION. STOP BRINGING IT UP.

Edited by hammerreborn, 26 June 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[PanzerMagier]

FupDup, on 12 June 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

Because opening up weapons.xml and changing ppc_heat = '8' to '10' and erppc_heat = '11' to '15' is hard.

[MischiefSC]

The problem is that right now PPCs/ERPPCs are a superior energy weapon. Not taking them puts you at a disadvantage. LPLs were a bit competitive for brawlers with decent damage to heat but that got nerfed, making LPLs utterly worthless in every single way. 1/3rd the range of an ERPPC for almost the exact same heat and not having pinpoint damage delivery - oh, and ppcs scramble ECM.

Not taking PPCs/ERPPCs nerfs you compared to everything else. I like the boating heat mechanic because it deals with boating LLs, or any other weapon. It effectively requires people to make weapon groups and reduces pinpoint alpha - by a bit.

PPCs need their heat bumped though. Everything else aside the heat reduction they got needs removed. They're still useful as a sniper weapon thanks to HSR and 2 or 3 ppcs + Gauss will still be a killer sniper kit - just with more heat from PPCs it will make them vulnerable to brawlers, which right now they're not. They can brawl as well as any other brawler save glass cannon dual AC20s.

They will still be viable, just not utterly superior to all other beam weapons. Which right now they are, unquestionably.

Edited to deal with hammerborns response to Traug earlier:

Damage from overheating needs to go in as well. There needs to be a heat scale that punishes mechs for running hot - in addition to the presented boating mechanic (which I don't have an issue with). In addition to that however PPCs are just flat out superior to all other energy weapons. With pinpoint accuracy and HSR they are able to deliver more damage to a single point at a longer range for about the same heat as lasers do. There is no tradeoff to PPCs/ERPPCs. Point blank range is only an issue for mechs that boat nothing but PPCs which is a strawman argument - it's addressed by other mechanics (boating for example and heat damage when overheating).

All other things aside, the idea of a 3 PPC Jenner just shows how broken PPCs are. That a 6 PPC stalker is so superior to a 6 LPL stalker, or 6 LL stalker proves the point as well. For the weight it's the best energy weapon, bar none. Mixing ERPPCs and PPCs lets a mech brawl and snipe with killer firepower very effectively. People take lasers for a sense of diversity but in the end, everyone using an LPL is a sucker and people using a LL need to change their build to use PPCs if they want to be more competitive.

Three fixes need to happen. First, boating mechanic of some sort. A gradual heat scale that punishes you for running hot prior to shutdown is better, but too many people would cry. Second, damage from overheating to shutdown even if you don't carry armor. Overheat 10 times in a game to the point of shutdown you should have all but destroyed your internal structure. Third, bring PPCs into line with other energy weapons. Maybe not 11 to 15, but 13 for ERPPCs and 9 for PPCs. Then scale all pulse lasers back in heat a bit - with pinpoint accuracy range is more valuable in MWO than it is in TT. Their loss of range costs them a lot and they need balanced up in other places.

Edited by MischiefSC, 26 June 2013 - 11:20 AM.

[Lugh]

hammerreborn, on 26 June 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Heat scale is the same. THE BOATERS DO NOT CARE ABOUT SHUTTING DOWN. UNTIL THIS MAKES THEM EXPLODE IT WILL DO NOTHING TO DETER THEM OR STOP BOATING IN ANY FASHION. STOP BRINGING IT UP.

CORRECT! I've argued up and down about needing to have internal heat damage applied at > 80% heat. It's been roundly ignored. Every other mechwarrior game had this in the heat scale.

[hammerreborn]

Lugh, on 26 June 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

CORRECT! I've argued up and down about needing to have internal heat damage applied at > 80% heat. It's been roundly ignored. Every other mechwarrior game had this in the heat scale.

What? No it didn't. I routinely fired 120 LRMS in Vultures in mechwarrior 3 and 4 without taking any internal damage. If I wasn't in water or ice I would explode, ya, but that was from going way beyond the overheat phase.

[Lightfoot]

Seleucus Ontuas, on 26 June 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Your builds are bad. The Awesome should be equipped with normal PPCs and neither of your mechs need CASE. Your Cataphract is using the wrong variant for that build; you'd be better off in a 4X or Ilya though in all honestly, a Jagermech is a much better Gauss platform. Furthermore, the Medium lasers are largely superflous, and you'd have to be within 270 meters to your full OP 45 point alpha. You know, that alpha that a Highlander can dish out from three times the range.

Furthermore, what you're forgetting that is that the 3D was nerfed first. Way back in December. With Gauss explosions. Take your normal STD Engine 4 PPC Stalker against your rather bad XL Engine 2 Gauss Phract, and the Stalker will win. Hell, I'd bet the Stalker would win against two of your Phracts.

But, you know I have no problem with the AC20, Gauss, and PPCs getting bumped up to a 5 second cooldown, with AC20 and PPCs both going up one point of heat. If that's how you want it, no skin off my back.

You didn't respond to my point. That the CTF-3D 2xGauss 60 rnds, 3x MLAS, is capable of doing triple the DPS of the ERPPC mech and probably double if 4xPPCs were used instead. Why is that not a problem but the PPC mechs are?

You guys have lost me on this. I play the game and can do Math too and your PPC suppositions don't hold up to close analysis. I mean, do you want to get to the root cause of MWO's problems or do you just want to swing the Nerf Bat?

The problem is the Mechs are too flimsy to support double or more recharge on all the weapons. The PPC just exposed this weakness in the game. Don't shoot the messenger as they say.

And Seluecus, the reason you put CASE on 'mechs with XL Engines is to prevent the 'mech from taking criticals to the engine from just low armor or a shot that strips the armor completely. It's extra life. It also prevents that Gauss from damaging your 'mech should it explode.

Edited by Lightfoot, 26 June 2013 - 11:41 AM.

[Soy]

Damocles69, on 26 June 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

so many convoluted and complicated solutions to PPC boating. would it be so hard to nerf PPCs and buff SRMs a bit so they compete with the AC 20? why is this so hard?

Maybe because instead of nerfing the **** out of everything that's viable, they should make everything else viable.

.......******* next lvl logic, i know brah

[Soy]

Seleucus Ontuas, on 26 June 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Your builds are bad. The Awesome should be equipped with normal PPCs and neither of your mechs need CASE. Your Cataphract is using the wrong variant for that build; you'd be better off in a 4X or Ilya though in all honestly, a Jagermech is a much better Gauss platform. Furthermore, the Medium lasers are largely superflous, and you'd have to be within 270 meters to your full OP 45 point alpha. You know, that alpha that a Highlander can dish out from three times the range.

Furthermore, what you're forgetting that is that the 3D was nerfed first. Way back in December. With Gauss explosions. Take your normal STD Engine 4 PPC Stalker against your rather bad XL Engine 2 Gauss Phract, and the Stalker will win. Hell, I'd bet the Stalker would win against two of your Phracts.

But, you know I have no problem with the AC20, Gauss, and PPCs getting bumped up to a 5 second cooldown, with AC20 and PPCs both going up one point of heat. If that's how you want it, no skin off my back.

Actually bro dual guass plus MLs is one of the staples of 3D power builds. It survived the JJ nerf nearly unscathed like a couple other 3D builds. The triple er ppc aws tho, thats a bad mech, I'll agree.

And of course the Stalker should win that encounter; the Stalker [and Highl] is literally THE counter to 3D, so

Edited by Soy, 26 June 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[Lightfoot]

@ MischiefSC

Yes PPCs are the best energy weapon in the Battletech arsenal for most mechs. That's like saying Gauss Rifles or AC20's are better than other AC's though. It doesn't make them unbalanced. Perhaps Mechlab needs work to give all the mechs sized hardpoints. That would definately curtail some of those AC builds too though.

The reason the PPCs and ERPPCs were lowered in heat was because of DHS 1.4 forcing the change. I was there, we all knew why the heat was being lowered.

PPCs are supposed to work well in Battletech, they always have in previous MechWarrior games and everything was fine. They are actually even hotter to use in MWO now with the current settings than in previous games.

The problem is not PPCs. It's that the Mechs are too flimsy to support double or more recharge on all the weapons. That's why it showed up when PPCs started working.

Now I don't care if PPCs are tweaked, but they are already super-hot and overheat your Mech so adding more heat will not stop energy boating by the newbies.

[Trauglodyte]

MischiefSC, on 26 June 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

The problem is that right now PPCs/ERPPCs are a superior energy weapon. Not taking them puts you at a disadvantage. LPLs were a bit competitive for brawlers with decent damage to heat but that got nerfed, making LPLs utterly worthless in every single way. 1/3rd the range of an ERPPC for almost the exact same heat and not having pinpoint damage delivery - oh, and ppcs scramble ECM.

Not taking PPCs/ERPPCs nerfs you compared to everything else. I like the boating heat mechanic because it deals with boating LLs, or any other weapon. It effectively requires people to make weapon groups and reduces pinpoint alpha - by a bit.

PPCs need their heat bumped though. Everything else aside the heat reduction they got needs removed. They're still useful as a sniper weapon thanks to HSR and 2 or 3 ppcs + Gauss will still be a killer sniper kit - just with more heat from PPCs it will make them vulnerable to brawlers, which right now they're not. They can brawl as well as any other brawler save glass cannon dual AC20s.

They will still be viable, just not utterly superior to all other beam weapons. Which right now they are, unquestionably.

Edited to deal with hammerborns response to Traug earlier:

Damage from overheating needs to go in as well. There needs to be a heat scale that punishes mechs for running hot - in addition to the presented boating mechanic (which I don't have an issue with). In addition to that however PPCs are just flat out superior to all other energy weapons. With pinpoint accuracy and HSR they are able to deliver more damage to a single point at a longer range for about the same heat as lasers do. There is no tradeoff to PPCs/ERPPCs. Point blank range is only an issue for mechs that boat nothing but PPCs which is a strawman argument - it's addressed by other mechanics (boating for example and heat damage when overheating).

All other things aside, the idea of a 3 PPC Jenner just shows how broken PPCs are. That a 6 PPC stalker is so superior to a 6 LPL stalker, or 6 LL stalker proves the point as well. For the weight it's the best energy weapon, bar none. Mixing ERPPCs and PPCs lets a mech brawl and snipe with killer firepower very effectively. People take lasers for a sense of diversity but in the end, everyone using an LPL is a sucker and people using a LL need to change their build to use PPCs if they want to be more competitive.

Three fixes need to happen. First, boating mechanic of some sort. A gradual heat scale that punishes you for running hot prior to shutdown is better, but too many people would cry. Second, damage from overheating to shutdown even if you don't carry armor. Overheat 10 times in a game to the point of shutdown you should have all but destroyed your internal structure. Third, bring PPCs into line with other energy weapons. Maybe not 11 to 15, but 13 for ERPPCs and 9 for PPCs. Then scale all pulse lasers back in heat a bit - with pinpoint accuracy range is more valuable in MWO than it is in TT. Their loss of range costs them a lot and they need balanced up in other places.

I understand what you're saying. But, right now, PPCs are too efficient. You say that the PPC boater doesn't care about overheating and that is true because the only downside to high heat builds is standing still for a few seconds. Shutting down is only dangerous if you do it out in the open which most PPC boaters rarely do. Until there are major penalties for heat and shutting down, nothing will be impactful enough to get away from this.

The point of boosting the heat is to make them less desirable for use in all situations. The current landscape of the game has PPCs getting jammed into eveyr energy hardpoint or you're just playing it wrong. PPCS SHOULD only be used for long range fire because lighter weapons are better for closer range. That isn't happening, though, because the PPC puts all 10 points of damage into one location and the heat is laughable. Raising the heat simply changes its use and forces people to manage their heat.

[hammerreborn]

Lightfoot, on 26 June 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

And Seluecus, the reason you put CASE on 'mechs with XL Engines is to prevent the 'mech from taking criticals to the engine from just low armor or a shot that strips the armor completely. It's extra life. It also prevents that Gauss from damaging your 'mech should it explode.

Nothing you said there has any basis in reality whatsoever. Seriously, other than CASE, XL engines, and Guass existing, everything is just wrong.

Putting CASE on mechs with XL engines is for idiots who don't know that it's useless to put CASE on mechs with XL engines.

Edited by hammerreborn, 26 June 2013 - 12:28 PM.

[VonRunnegen]

firing a shot pushes you over the heat cap into shutdown? Make that shot not go out, suddenly people have to play within the heat cap and big ppc boats need to take a lot more care of their heat.

I'd still bump PPC heat by one personally though.

Edit: when i say 'not go out' i mean still apply the heat, cause a shutdown, but the bolt / missile / beam / bullet doesn't actually fire so no damage.

Edited by VonRunnegen, 26 June 2013 - 12:30 PM.

[Livewyr]

A: Bishop- I wouldn't compare 2 PPCs to two gauss.. I would compare 3+ PPCs to 2 Gauss (30 damage)

And if I had to choose between taking down a 2xGauss K2 and a 3xPPC K2 first- I would choose the Dual Gauss simply because I know as soon as that ST armor is gone, the gun blows up, and there goes the Gauss K2. not because he's any more threatening, just easier to kill.

B: Zyrus- The PPC is essentially a ballistic weapon.. front loaded damage, travel time, etc.. thus I compare it to other ballistics... of which it is king of advantage/disadvantage ratio.

C: Bosshammer: tell me why a Raven 4x, having 2 Ballistic Hardpoints, and 2 Energy Hardpoints can mount 2 PPCs or ERPPCS, but only 1 AC10.

[Sporklift]

How about they just change the way weapon cycling and group fire works. Make it so that when you fire a weapon, all weapons go into a (relative to standard cycle time) short cooldown making simultanious fire impossible.

Each weapon will have its normal cycle time along with a global cycle value. The delay between firing two weapons will be determined by each of the weapons' global cycle value. Firing a two Gauss group (either together, or chained with two clicks) will have a sigificant delay between the first gauss and the second. But firing a gauss and a small laser will have almost no delay.

When you fire a gauss rifle and three PPCs in a group the most powerful weapon (the gauss rifle) will fire first and after a delay the three PPCs will fire in a sequence with a small delay between. This turns an instant 45pt ball of pinpoint damage into a 15--10-10-10pt chain that takes longer to get off (like a fraction of a second rather than just BOOM).
The target will have time to move and spread out the damage, it would make mediums and lights last longer, and put more value on consistant repeating fire rather than lining up that huge single spooge attack.

It would also add another way of balancing weapons. Certain weapons, like the machine gun, wouldn't even activate a global cooldown. Others might have a really short global cooldown cycle because the dangers of pinpoint abuse isn't high with missles and cluster-equpped LBX autocannon.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Is it so hard to stop beating a dead horse?

[Coralld]

KuruptU4Fun, on 26 June 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

Is it so hard to stop beating a dead horse?

[KuruptU4Fun]

[CancR]

Karl Streiger, on 26 June 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

So you have the opinion that PPCs are fine?
Well lets have a look
3 Large Laser vs 2 PPCs
stupid example - however based on weight and heat - the 3 Large Laser must beat the dual PPCs.
They don't
At nearly any time i would prefer the PPCs....lower heat - instant damage - aiming once - hit with 20 dmg.

Large Laser - no lead but aiming 1 full sec. At best dmg of 27 - but that will happens only at standing targets.

This is dumb on so many levels.

1) Most people with reading Comprehension know my position is A: The ppc it's self is fine, its not boating or ppcs that is a problem, but the ability to take the top tier tonnage and stack all the high damage weapons on them that is the problem.


2) This shows just how ignorant you are to both MW and BT rules. Both have their place in both MW games (including this one) and in BT. A PPC only boat, say, a stalker, gets into short range with a stalker with 6 LL (which will have a 48 Alpha, and much more heat efficiency as lower heat, less weight for more D/SH, and no minimal range will suddenly be doing much more more damage with 6 LL, and if they where to 1v1, the ppc boat loses.

What frustrates the most about these here today gone tomorrow 'fans' is how all they really do is cry about how the easy thing they want to do is nerfed but the easy thing other people do is far to op, and they want their hand to be held buffing x they like, and nerfing x they like with out ever even attempting to become more skilled in the game and figure out hard counters and attempting them.

What makes it worse is that all the time ive been running Jenners which all these terrible nerf ideas affected far more then it ever has boats (how many boats do you see compared to lights in a game?) And despite watching my Jenner F go from a 1.37 to 1.29 with 6 ML as they tried to nerf heavy and assaults with both DHS nerfs and ML heat nerfs and dispite this, when ever I spot out a missle or ppc boat, i charge it because even with my nerfed heat, the boat cant outdamage me in that close combat, and they are easy to pick off with my 30 damage.

Little cognitive dot connecting in the community will go a long way from all these threads begging for hand holding to be instead demanding the game be balanced to skill instead of I like x so buff X and I dont like y so nerf y.

Imagine where Quake or Starcraft would be if people whined that spawn kills are to op, and players should start off with a RL, or in starcraft if new players who cound't micro complained about it, so hey made it that all units had to be stationary to fight?

These two games wouldn't of made it to the top of Esports where they sit now.

Boogie Man, on 26 June 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

Stop posting in threads and making them stupid then.

I'm one of the few people who inject common sense into these forums. They really needs to be more who do so. I understand why u mad bro. If the game was balance to skill I'd imagine you'd end up giving up in > a few weeks.

[senaiboy]

CancR, on 26 June 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

Snip.

1. Whether the PPC is an issue or not is down to personal opinion. The reason we have these threads is to discuss this, not to say "I am right and you are wrong".

2. Let's say 6LL vs 4PPC, as Karl used as comparison? The weight, heat and damage output is roughly equal, but PPC boat has pinpoint damage while 6LL has damage over time. Would the LL Stalker still win? If both players are of equal skill, I would say no due to PPC boat's pinpoint damage and not having to keep crosshair on enemy the whole time (=more torso twisting). The PPC minimum range won't affect much unless the PPC Stalker is ambushed or caught unaware - or he can use 2ERPPC+2PPC for better brawling.

Jenner vs missile/PPC boat is not a fair comparison for obvious reasons, nor do I see its relevance to the PPC discussion.

You have your own opinion on PPC, but that doesn't mean those who have different opinions are "morons" or not worth listening to. They just see things from a different perspective. Being condescending does not prove your point has more basis.

Edited by senaiboy, 26 June 2013 - 02:47 PM.