522 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

In all honesty, I think the Stalker should be moved from "Large" to "Huge." The Stalker's Lore History describes it as a Mech that was notorious for not being able to carry a full 85-ton loadout at all until many modifications were performed... aaaaand the Stalkers' mobility is [, from what I assume,] supposed to be a major balancing factor to it's tactical hardpoint layout.

But, these changes will have to be live-tested before I can actually back that up... I guess time will tell.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 27 June 2013 - 12:54 PM.

[Jonathan Paine]

Love the idea: maps will have a more 3-Dimensional feel. Sticking together will require giving up certain avenues. Light mechs with JJs will shine, JJ in general will be meaningful. Really hope something similar happens to movement through water!

The implementation, however, will need more work.

How is this for short:
Ultra light: 20 tons
Slowdown Angle 42.5

Light:25-30 tons
Slowdown angle: 40

Small: 35-40 tons
Slowdown angle: 37.5
...

Huge 95-100
Slowdown angle: 20

Chickenlegs: deduct 2.5 from slowdown angle.

Both Arms/Hands perfectly articulate? add 2.5 to slowdown angle. (Or, cruelly, deduct 1.5 per missing actuator)


Thoughts?

Edited by Jonathan Paine, 27 June 2013 - 01:00 PM.

[Raso]

Some maps are going to need a massive rework in their geometry.

River City will need to have something done to it's upper city base to make it more accessible or to it's lower city base to reduce the points of entry and attack by mechs with out JJs.

• Caustic Valley's caldera looks like it has some unpassable terrain all along the ridge. It should have that smoothed out a bit and the points here you can and can not enter or exit should be made more obvious.
  
• Canyon Network is now going to be brutal with out JJs or proper coordination and I'm ok with that. However there should be a few more opportunities to connect to different elevations along each route to make up for the increased difficulty of terrain navigation.
  
• Alpine is going to be an interesting mess and I'll have to see it in action before I can comment.
  
• Forest Colony and Frozen City will probably ok for the most part.
  
• Tourmaline Already has multiple bulwarks and defensive positions which are only accessible from a single flank with out JJs so this isn't that huge of a hit to it. If anything I would say the angle of some of it's slopes should be altered slightly.

I think this is an interesting, and much needed, change to movement mechanics but I don't think this will solve the problem of high alphas, only alter the manner in which they are delivered. I also think that this would be an incredible opportunity to introduce customization options for gyros and actuators. Allow us to select from parts that give us a bonus to terrain navigation, acceleration and other factors such as convergence speed or weapon recoil (and add those last 2 things into the game to make them a thing).

[Vasces Diablo]

Tsunamisan, on 27 June 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

I'll reserve my feedback until i see ho much it actually impacts the mechs movement up a hill. If there gonna slow light mechs down any more then its just time to quit. I like the idea of the travers-able and non travers-able areas but the movement decreases are where its gonna hit me. anything but light pilots will not be effected but as light = speed = life if you slow them down any mire there just fodder. as with the legging there just worthless if they loose leg.

Time will tell of course, but I think this is a huge buff for light mechs. Your escape capability just went through the roof. Before, I could cut off a retreated light/med mech in my Stalker by just walking over a hill. Not anymore, fast mechs will be able to use terrain better than ever before to evade enemies.

[Caviel]

I'm a bit puzzled why you didn't just use the Light/Med/Heavy/Assault designation for the classes, and just kept the current types.


All that aside, will you be resetting the heat map information on the website so that we don't see old cumulative effects of now invalid movement and kill/death information? Also, can you please provide a slope diagram for Forest Colony Snow as the geography is different near the cave with the large pile of snow/rock, and no ship is in the water?

[Krizalius]

instead of a thousand words

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I'll withhold judgement till I see it. Certainly makes jump jets a lot more interesting.

I do question some of the groupings though, I'll echo I think that the Stalker should be considered huge.

[The Strange]

Syrkres, on 27 June 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

Like it, will change the game mechanics.

Would be very interested in how you came up with the groupings...

Quickdraw, Stalker, Victor, Highlander seems out of place (or would like to know how they were grouped)?

Is it because of legs? Chicken legs drop you a category? if so what do hands give you? Having them should be benefit for something?

If legs are a factor why is Commando/Spider in the Tiny category? Again not seeing logic here? So some explanation of how/why groupings were chosen.

Jonathan Paine, on 27 June 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

Love the idea: maps will have a more 3-Dimensional feel. Sticking together will require giving up certain avenues. Light mechs with JJs will shine, JJ in general will be meaningful. Really hope something similar happens to movement through water!

The implementation, however, will need more work.

How is this for short:
Ultra light: 20 tons
Slowdown Angle 42.5

Light:25-30 tons
Slowdown angle: 40

Small: 35-40 tons
Slowdown angle: 37.5
...

Huge 95-100
Slowdown angle: 20

Chickenlegs: deduct 2.5 from slowdown angle.

Both Arms/Hands perfectly articulate? add 2.5 to slowdown angle. (Or, cruelly, deduct 1.5 per missing actuator)


Thoughts?

Caviel, on 27 June 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

I'm a bit puzzled why you didn't just use the Light/Med/Heavy/Assault designation for the classes, and just kept the current types.


All that aside, will you be resetting the heat map information on the website so that we don't see old cumulative effects of now invalid movement and kill/death information? Also, can you please provide a slope diagram for Forest Colony Snow as the geography is different near the cave with the large pile of snow/rock, and no ship is in the water?

Your answer was right in the thread if you just looked for it.

Kevin Meek, on 27 June 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

Regarding posts on why 'Mechs with heavier in-game tonnage can find themselves in a smaller archetype:

In addition to the movement for slopes, those archetypes are also consolidating the Mech vs world collision capsules.

Before this system, each 'Mech would have its own pill-shaped collision proxy fitted for its rough shape, making a ton of different 'Mechs get stuck in slightly different locations. Now, with 5 capsules, we can design levels for specific collision capsule sizes, and find/fix stuck bugs much easier.

For that reason, the 'Mech archetypes looked at grouping relative size (height, length, and width) as its main consideration. Because of the extra big shoulders of the missile boxes, and the very long nose, the catapult would need to be in a larger capsule category than the heavier Cataphract. I don't think that you'll find the movement abilities between two neighboring archetypes so substantial that it would be effectively nerfing or giving substantial advantages to any 'Mech that seems out of order due to its assumed weight but smaller frame. Especially with engine speed and momentum of lighter 'Mechs still being factored in (read: a slow moving Cataphract in a smaller movement archetype is going to probably still have a harder longer time than a faster moving Catapult at climbing any substantial hill).

That being said, it's easy enough to switch some 'Mechs into a different archetype or to tune the climb angles for any archetype if needed. I don't forsee any issues with the current grouping but you don't have to worry that things are 100% set in stone as far as grouping or angles are concerned.

Triple clarification: Collision capsules for 'Mechs here are just referring to 'Mech vs. world collision, each 'Mech still has its own unique collision proxys for 'Mech vs. weapon.

edit: fixing super f'd up formatting from c/p'ing.

[4lex]

It look perfect so far exept for the STK being as good at hill climbing than a QKD... JM6 same as BJ-1 also come to mind. This new mechanic can help tune mechs that are a bit to much/ not enough powafoul!

[Dr B00t]

wish they would have spent time actually building physics...i mean they have nvidia as a sponsor...dont they make something like that? *cough physx*

edit: not just a weak ragdoll effect

Edited by Dr B00t, 27 June 2013 - 01:31 PM.

[Praehotec8]

Looks interesting, but again, as many others have stated I think the stalker should be huge (the thing already can't walk over fallen logs, etc.), and the quickdraw is more like medium. Wish the catapult was medium, but at least they have JJs.

[Hotthedd]

A+ on the overall idea, but A- on some of the classifications.

This is a definite buff to the Jenner (tiny?) that is seeing a buff with the heat penalty for boats exemption.

Stalkers got love, while Awesomes should just come with red hair standard as they are the unwanted step-children.

[POWR]

StalaggtIKE, on 27 June 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

Edit: 45 degree as an impassable slope is a bit small. I suggest bumping up a bit; 80 degrees perhaps. Also, what about going down slopes? How will that work?

You realise 90 degrees is vertical? 45 degrees is a very steep incline. Also known as a 100% grade or slope.

Edited by POWR, 27 June 2013 - 01:44 PM.

[TheMightyWashburn]

FrDrake, on 27 June 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

Mechs already accelerate beyond their normal top speed when sliding down slopey cliffs. Have you never seen an atlas slide down the tall mountain in alpine? It's like he's on a slip and slide into a brick wall because he suddenly stops at the end of the slope and takes little to no fall dmg. Makes him impossible to shoot until he's done sliding too because when he's going to stop isn't so apparent.

That is unintentional physics stuff common to many video games.

[keith]

decent change. but from the look of some maps, u are taking away alot of the ways to play out the game. limiting even more the routes in which MWO is played. this+jj are crap right now+ cap point=bad change

[Solis Obscuri]

Why is the Quickdraw treated as being bigger than a Dragon? Both 'mechs live or die by their mobility.

Likewise, why is a Stalker able to cover terrain more easily than an Atlas or Highlander? It's an immense 'mech.

Also, the legs on an Awesome are so damn short it already cannot climb slopes that every other chassis in the game can handle with only minor inconvenience. Has this change been internally tested to make sure it won't just become an immobile turret the first time it encounters a gentle incline?

[Solis Obscuri]

Jesus Christ, you're making the frickin' Cataphract more mobile than the Quickdraw? And the Jagermech?

Is the point to only reward the PPC-boat and AC/40 chassis and force everything else to be a slow-moving target?

[FrostCollar]

Well, as many people have already mentioned, some mechs' placement in categories needs to be changed (fast Stalkers and slow Quickdraws seem somewhat confusing). The idea itself though is great and has been a long time in coming, and as someone who uses lighter mechs I heartily endorse it. We'll have to see how the initial implementation works though.

[Mawai]

It is an interesting change and I will wait until playing it to pass judgement ... however, just a couple of considerations.

1) Your maps show the absolute gradients ... which indicate where a mech should be slowed due to the incline. However, assuming the mech chassis is capable of adapting ... it isn't clear why they would be slowed for traversing a slope rather than going up. Also, presumably they will not be slowed going down hill?

2) Have you tested this? What happens when a mech walks onto a 45 degree incline from above? Surely there will be nothing preventing descent of such surfaces even if you can't drive up them? There are many of these accessible on all maps. Your description indicates that the mech speed will go to zero on a 45 degree slope ... how will this work ... will it take the actual gradient of the hill relative to the mech position and direction of travel into account?

3) Most 45 degree slopes will have a less steep gradient if approached at an angle. Will it be possible to ascend such slopes by going up them at an angle?

4) What will happen when a mech with jump jets ends up in a region with a 45 degree slope ... perhaps in a crater at the top of a hill?


The modifications to mech movement sound interesting ... but the description in the command chair post doesn't address how the edge cases will be treated ... which are probably the key as to whether this feature is successful.

[Bagheera]

Love this change, but I am concerned at how 65 and 70 ton mechs are considered part of the "medium" movement bracket. Sort of speaks to the issues where the average medium can't measurably out-maneuver a heavy while the latter has the obvious weapons and armor advantage.

Maybe some of that bracketing is worth reconsidering? Outside of this, how much of the game uses those movement brackets?