100 replies to this topic

[Enigmos]

MegaZordTrololo, on 28 June 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

Except that the gameplay WAS better.... You would get a lot of variety in combat. Some times a huge brawl with all 16 mechs, sometimes a ranged standoff. Sometimes a mix of everything =D

Yet I am seeing quite a bit of that now in PUGs. Are you playing exclusively eight-man drops? If so, maybe the problem isn't so much the PPC boats as it is the loadout philosophy of organized drops? Factoring all elements as potential contributors to the problem, might that be a possibility as well?

Edited by OriginalTibs, 28 June 2013 - 06:07 AM.

[Brut4ce]

Hi all!

For me the most important part of the OP that needs to be underlined is this :

Quote

....Well, we found out a bit yesterday. Steel Jaguar and Swords of Kentares played a best of 5 match on conquest mode, and as a part of the match stipulations there were no PPCs used. So, what were the results?.....

More specifically, Since we could all agree i suppose, that, PGI is doing their thing, which sometimes contradicts the wills of some (many...?....most...?) players, wouldn't it be the salvation for most to have our lobbies (AT LAST), organise the teams the way WE want, play with the rules, maps, etc, WE choose and have that kind of fun games-leagues etc.? Hell, i wouldn't mind if c-bills - XP rewards were removed from player-organised matches alltogether.

Just my 2 cents...

*S*

[Enigmos]

Kaldor, on 28 June 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

Except the firing delay was due to PGI's bad network code... PPCs werent the only weapons that had that issue. It was just most evident on ballistic style weapons.

That was the firing delay part. They were also weak, at least in my recollection.

[3rdworld]

Was pretty crazy last night.

We certainly saw mechs you would never ever see in a competitive match last night. CTFs not the 3D, Jagers, a heavy metal. only a handful of stalkers all night. It certainly took the current meta, and dumped it on its head.

We had a good bit of fun, great games SJR.

Wish i had remembered to press record on some of the matches...... only got match 3 and the butt ****** we took in match 5.... but that video shall never be seen.

EDIT: Just wanted to say it was probably the most fun I have had in a drop night, than I have had in a while. Guess I am just getting a little burnt out of PPCs wars.

Edited by 3rdworld, 28 June 2013 - 06:14 AM.

[Howdy Doody]

I'm actually pretty content for the moment. I want to see how all the other changes work before any PPC change.

1. Terrain change should make PPC/HillTarting harder. Not to mention Slow mechs are going to be a LOT slower with longer travel routes and slower climbs!
2. Heat Penalty for multiples should help
3. Damage to Mech with overheats.

For me these 3 could make the use of high PPC strikes a real pain in the arse.

Then again, maybe not. But I'd like to see these in action first.

Edited by Howdy Doody, 28 June 2013 - 06:11 AM.

[Kaldor]

OriginalTibs, on 28 June 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

That was the firing delay part. They were also weak, at least in my recollection.

Nah, damage was still 10, heat was 10. They just had huge delay, and sub 1000 speed. Think "hadouken" from Street Fighter, lol. Big windup, easy to dodge, heh.

[MegaZordTrololo]

OriginalTibs, on 28 June 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

Yet I am seeing quite a bit of that now in PUGs. Are you playing exclusively eight-man drops? If so, maybe the problem isn't so much the PPC boats as it is the loadout philosophy of organized drops? Factoring all elements as potential contributors to the problem, might that be a possibility as well?

The issues with PPC boats, 2 ERPPC + Gauss, etc... get worse as your elo rises. So if you are a good player but choose not to follow the PPC meta you can get quite frustrated/bored, especially when running a brawler. This is because you can't get any support for a push because all your teamates want to do is sit back and PPC snipe. Not saying this is always the case, but the bad experiences tend to annoy me so much I have to stop playing for a bit =/

Edited by MegaZordTrololo, 28 June 2013 - 06:15 AM.

[Rippthrough]

That is one downside to the matchmaking, if you're at the high end and want to muck about with weird builds, it can make you a liabilty to the rest of the team. Fortunately, the MM seems to be playing up lately, so machineguns it is.

[Enigmos]

MegaZordTrololo, on 28 June 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

The issues with PPC boats, 2 ERPPC + Gauss, etc... get worse as your elo rises. So if you are a good player but choose not to follow the PPC meta you can get quite frustrated/bored, especially when running a brawler. This is because you can't get any support for a push because all your teamates want to do is sit back and PPC snipe. Not saying this is always the case, but the bad experiences tend to annoy me so much I have to stop playing for a bit =/

I remember. My ELO went down a bit while I was grinding Quickdraws, but I know what you are talking about. I don't think that getting rid of PPCs or making them less effective will really do the trick though because the 'top gun' will just transfer to another weapon system. We need to stop already with focusing only on the symptoms and come to grips with the real problem. If I had a handle on it I'd share with you but we saw it with dual gauss, we saw it with LRM, we saw it with splat cats, we saw it with ECM, we saw it with SSRM, we see it with PPC boats and we're seeing it with AC40s. Those are symptoms of an endemic problem.

Edited by OriginalTibs, 28 June 2013 - 06:38 AM.

[TheMagician]

Ah yes, I Forgot that we also had Atlas-RS, and a Heavy Metal. I think there was a Misery there too. Good diversity. Also, tot every mech needs to be used (or even useful at the highest level) to have good and diverse play.

Rippthrough, on 28 June 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

It's part of it, the firing delay and the slow projectile speed it previously had meant a lot of players would forgo it for lasers.

Several factors played into it, including:

- Reduced heat of PPCs
- Coolant (a big one)
- Better netcode
- Host State Rewind (netcode was greatly improved before this)
- Quicker PPCs
- Reduced effectiveness of SRMs & SSRMs
- Fragile Gauss (reduced health of gauss rifles)

Edited by TheMagician, 28 June 2013 - 06:45 AM.

[MegaZordTrololo]

OriginalTibs, on 28 June 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

I remember. My ELO went down a bit while I was grinding Quickdraws, but I know what you are talking about. I don't think that getting rid of PPCs or making them less effective will really do the trick though because the 'top gun' will just transfer to another weapon system. We need to stop already with focusing only on the symptoms and come to grips with the real problem. If I had a handle on it I'd share with you but we saw it with dual gauss, we saw it with LRM, we saw it with splat cats, we saw it with ECM, we saw it with SSRM, we see it with PPC boats and we're seeing it with AC40s. Those are symptoms of an endemic problem.

I agree that a new FOTM will rise very quickly, but nothing else was as obnoxious and ubiquitous as the current PPC spam.

Splat Cats tended to over reach themselves and get focused down before they did too much damage, or they would be spotted early and people could open a gap to them. ECM could be extremely annoying, but you could still get interesting and varied fights (in fact with ECM affecting both teams a fight could degenerate into such chaos it could be amusing). I even prefered the various LRMgeddon's which have occured, as LRM are far easier to cope with and close against than massive PPC alphas.

Anyway hopefully these movement changes are going to reduce the capability of static sniper types. I can only hope..

Edited by MegaZordTrololo, 28 June 2013 - 06:57 AM.

[Rippthrough]

TheMagician, on 28 June 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

Several factors played into it, including:

- Reduced heat of PPCs
- Coolant (a big one)

Well, I hated the idea of coolant to start with because it could lead to this, and I still don't use it in protest. Did seem like a dumb idea at the time, still does.

[Imminent]

We(Swords of Kentares) have video upon video of competitive matches. Watching the one 'no PPC' match from last night was the most jealous I have been from missing a match in a long time It looked like so much dam fun.

The PPCs time as 'the' weapon of choice needs to end sooner rather than later. Yea yea, you could take it upon yourself and use other weapons, but if you had a choice to drive a Ferrari or a Geo to work, you'd choose a Ferrari. I am tired of driving the Ferrari...

I miss my old friend Mechwarrior online...

Bring back Gauss speed PPCs, the lag shields are fixed, you don't need the pin point speed anymore...

[DaZur]

TheMagician, on 28 June 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

What happens if PPCs just disappear?

Simple... The next most-dominant weapon takes it's place.

While I appreciate your experiment, your results are a bit skewed in that the desired meta was known and conscious effort made to justify the means. (No offense intended)

In real-world application, the PPC would simply be replaced by either the Gauss or the AC/20 as the dominant weapon as players reasoned the fallout and migrated to the next biggest weapon.

This the reason min/maxing and the proverbial arms-race is so damn difficult to mitigate.

[Tremendous Upside]

All PGI needs to do to change the perception of the PPC is to slow the projectile speed down. Maybe even make it to where ERPPCs and PPCs themselves have slightly different projectile speeds... This would leave them just as devastating against parked targets (which are typically other snipers and LRM boats), and less effective against moving targets (especially faster ones). It would also make it less effective when combined in PPC/GR combos since you'd have to lead moving targets separately with each weapon type. The way they're implemented now, they're almost hit-scan weapons. It's too easy... and people will always flock to "easy" over what they perceive as a challenge.

Nice to hear that even the competitive community is starting to get fed up with the PPC meta though... While I personally "enjoy" a good sniping duel between teams (I'm the oddball that way), I also enjoy chaotic brawler wars every bit as much. I think the game needs both in the long run - and I hope the new movement changes help to provide a little balance between them in the short-term. Now if people would just start dropping 8s again in general... It's a freaking ghost town out there every time my crew puts a team together.

[Stalephreak]

I've got a thought. I'm fully ready for this to be so revolutionary as to start a flame war. Most ppc boat builds don't rely on the ER version, just the basic. That has a minimum range of 90m....So give the boat a hug right into oblivion at point blank range!

[FactorlanP]

John MatriX82, on 28 June 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

PPCs are in a right spot now, what breaks PPCs AND LRMs are boats, 3+ ppc boats (I mean 4-5-6 ppcs),

I disagree.

When a weapon, such as the PPC, is shoe horned into every light, medium, or heavier mech that appears on the battlefield, you should realize that it is messed up.

Raise the heat and create REAL penalties for over heating.

[BillyM]

PPC's disappeared?

"Honey, fire up my PC and pack some drinks and snacks next to the computer. I'm leaving work immediately and plan to play MWO straight through to July."

*Throws modules on the Hunchback and prepares to brawl!*

--billyM

Edited by BillyM, 28 June 2013 - 07:41 AM.

[John MatriX82]

FactorlanP, on 28 June 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

I disagree.

When a weapon, such as the PPC, is shoe horned into every light, medium, or heavier mech that appears on the battlefield, you should realize that it is messed up.

Raise the heat and create REAL penalties for over heating.

Of course you can disagree what we are missing now are decent pulse lasers, usable SRMs (way more powerful than they are now).

Heat penalties won't do ANYTHING. Are they limiting 3PPCs? Good, either you'll go around with 3PPCs or worse, 4PPC users will switch over 3 ER PPCs + 1 GR on the Misery. And the hell will go on nevertheless. We don't need heat, we need to avoid boating 4-5-6 LLs, 4-5-6 PPCs, over 50 LRMs and over 30 SRMs. We need an hardpoint restriction system both for ballistics and energy and a tube restriction system for both LRMs and SRMs.

[Imminent]

People are missing the point here.

PPCs are not F'n fun....

The tactics required to fight in PPC based matches are not F'n fun...

The style of piloting required to use/combat against PPCs in matches is not F'n fun...

Fielding teams of Stalkers, 3Ds, and Highlanders is not F'n fun...

Edited by Imminent, 28 June 2013 - 07:43 AM.