100 replies to this topic

[Chavette]

I know. Its messed up, and needs fixing. But having them taken out would just make the game a close range meat grinder.

[Ghogiel]

Skinny Pete, on 28 June 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

The diversity we saw lost night is what proves my point. Do you know how boring it is dropping every night and just obliterating everything with PPCs?

I do.

I would say take something else if it's so boring, but it sounds like that is exactly what you did do.

[Andrew Cranston]

Ghogiel, on 28 June 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

I do.

I would say take something else if it's so boring, but it sounds like that is exactly what you did do.

The problem is that it's hard to do that unless the OpFor agrees to the same constraints. We should create a no-PPC scrim league of some type, call it Balance Island or something.

[MaddMaxx]

Appogee, on 28 June 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

Interesting experiment! Thanks for trying it and also for sharing the experience!

Well a true experiment would not have set limits on anything else at the same time. They saw diversity? Well doh. No more a than 3 of this or had to have less then 2 of those etc etc etc.

How about do one and tell everyone "everything is game", except PPC's, and then see what transpires. That would be a much much better experiment.

A very good first try though.

Rippthrough, on 28 June 2013 - 05:18 AM, said:

GuasstotheFaceOnline?

Would need to see, from the current stable of Mechs, those that can carry more than 2. 30 pt LR alphas are not near as scary as the current 45-60 pt. ones unless everyone carries them of course.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 28 June 2013 - 09:57 AM.

[Howdy Doody]

It would be fantastic to have custom matches where you can adjust all these things on Match Setup.

Tonnage, Weapons, Mechs....

Could have some awesome "Only spiders with machine guns only" brawls!

Edited by Howdy Doody, 28 June 2013 - 09:32 AM.

[3rdworld]

MaddMaxx, on 28 June 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

Well a true experiment would not have set limits on anything else at the same time. They saw diversity? Well doh. No more a than 3 of this or had to have less then 2 of those etc etc etc.

How about do one and tell everyone "everything is game", except PPC's, and then see what transpires. That would be a much much better experiment.

The only real limit was weight. They had chassis limits, but if you were wanting to stack AC/40 mechs, you could bring 6.

[MaddMaxx]

Skinny Pete, on 28 June 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

Having participated in the matches last night, I disagree. The game was more fun and versatile than us just dominating the competition with PPCs.

Did anyone note if there was a increase in Gauss Rifle use at all? Just curious.

[SMDMadCow]

Chavette, on 28 June 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

I know. Its messed up, and needs fixing. But having them taken out would just make the game a close range meat grinder.

Or double Gauss would step back up with large lasers and UAC5 right behind. Reminds me of Closed Beta last year.

[FactorlanP]

I really don't think Gauss rifles will ever be the problem that PPCs are now.

They're big, heavy, ammo dependent, and they freakin' explode if sneezed upon. They have lots of drawbacks to balance their damage, projectile speed, and damage potential.

PPCs don't have the requisite number of drawbacks to balance their effectiveness in their current iteration.

[Fate 6]

CapperDeluxe, on 28 June 2013 - 05:08 AM, said:

I think the "midpoint" of heat may not be enough, though it certainly couldn't hurt to try for a couple weeks or so then decide if more heat is needed.

Heat increase only really hurts balanced loadouts. The snipers don't care much about heat, and the 2PPC Gauss build will still be cool enough to function.

[MaddMaxx]

Skinny Pete, on 28 June 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

Which was a better game than it is right now IMO.

Sadly that is not even close to true. We did a FUN night some time back and everyone took Gauss Rifles. It was "fun" once. The devastation was unbelievable. An exposed called target had a lifespan of 15 seconds or less. We played 2 matches and have never repeated the exercise.

Same as you see now with PPC's, except the Gauss delivers more damage per unit fielded and has "negligible" heat. Or in laymen's terms, never a forced shutdown. Ammo is not a drawback. We take it instead of the DHS's the PPC drivers need btw...

Heat the PPC's back up and set the internal damage level to 115%, not 150% please.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 28 June 2013 - 10:07 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

3rdworld, on 28 June 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

The only real limit was weight. They had chassis limits, but if you were wanting to stack AC/40 mechs, you could bring 6.

Quote

(part of this is due to league rules, which prevented you from taking more than 3 of 1 chassis for certain drops, and more than 2 for another + needing at least 4 different chassis per drop, but this wasn't the only reason)

Then I misread that part then. No more than 3 of 1 chassis... no more than 2... at least 4 different chassis (I assume an 8 man)

A lot of extra restriction that obviously, before, did not prevent the abuse of the PPC. Its removal and role, likely was filled by another weapon. No mention was made if another weapon stepped up to fill the void.

What do you think if the Community at large lost the PPC? Take different chassis, if they were not forced to via some form of limitation as noted on the OP.

As noted. 5 Matches, via various limitations in place, minus the PPC is a very good start but not indicative of what happens given a true lack of other limitations, minus the PPC.

[3rdworld]

MaddMaxx, on 28 June 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

Then I misread that part then. No more than 3 of 1 chassis... no more than 2... at least 4 different chassis (I assume an 8 man)

A lot of extra restriction that obviously, before, did not prevent the abuse of the PPC. Its removal and role, likely was filled by another weapon. No mention was made if another weapon stepped up to fill the void.

What do you think if the Community at large lost the PPC? Take different chassis, if they were not forced to via some form of limitation as noted on the OP.

As noted. 5 Matches, via various limitations in place, minus the PPC is a very good start but not indicative of what happens given a true lack of other limitations, minus the PPC.

3 of 1 on the smaller drops. Only the large drop (575) was 2 of 1.

Remember there are 2 mechs that can run AC/40, so you can conceivably have 6 on the smalls and 4 on the large.

I don't think anyone wants them removed (well some people mite). Removing them does unjustifiably buff AC/20s, specifically with SRMs being crap.

The point was to see how different the game was with 1 weapon removed. The answer is that it is VASTLY different. To me that just shows how OP the weapon really is, when removing it makes the game do a 180. Take MLs away, is the game different? no, Take any other weapon away, and you do not change the game to any large degree.

The PPC does fill a niche that the game does need, that of an energy based sniper. It is just so good right now that no other roles are viable.

Edited by 3rdworld, 28 June 2013 - 10:40 AM.

[Varrin Coursca]

Thanks for sharing your experiment.

Would be interesting if the community as a whole decided to try this for a day...just pick a day, have everyone strip the PPCs from their builds, and replace it with something else.

[FactorlanP]

Varrin Coursca, on 28 June 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

Thanks for sharing your experiment.

Would be interesting if the community as a whole decided to try this for a day...just pick a day, have everyone strip the PPCs from their builds, and replace it with something else.

Better yet... Have PGI try the experiment for a day and strip them out.

[Sybreed]

OriginalTibs, on 28 June 2013 - 05:22 AM, said:

Founders will recall when PPCs were so weak they were never used. Then other things, or other pilots, or the (lack of) teamwork were blamed. It isn't the fault of the PPC. The good craftsman does not blame his tools.

they weren't that weak, it's just that there were so many laggers that most shot did not connect and you still had your heat increasing. I never had problems with PPCs before the buff, laggers did and HSR fixed it for them.

[s5134195]

When you start with the "let's experiment" premise, that is basically what is going to happen. People are going to tinker and toy for five matches, knowing that the competitive edge has been put aside for a while. Try a week or two of it, and see how it evolves and people settle into the new arrangement. I think you will find that new (unforeseen?) elements will come to the fore and be exploited. Sounds like it was a fun time while it lasted though! Thanks for sharing.

[MaddMaxx]

3rdworld, on 28 June 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

3 of 1 on the smaller drops. Only the large drop (575) was 2 of 1.

Remember there are 2 mechs that can run AC/40, so you can conceivably have 6 on the smalls and 4 on the large.

I don't think anyone wants them removed (well some people mite). Removing them does unjustifiably buff AC/20s, specifically with SRMs being crap.

The point was to see how different the game was with 1 weapon removed. The answer is that it is VASTLY different. To me that just shows how OP the weapon really is, when removing it makes the game do a 180. Take MLs away, is the game different? no, Take any other weapon away, and you do not change the game to any large degree.

The PPC does fill a niche that the game does need, that of an energy based sniper. It is just so good right now that no other roles are viable.

Totally get that, no worries. The same thing we tell the Dev. Do not change 3 things at once, then you can never be sure what caused any new issue(s), if one were to arise. Just a principle thing is all.

FactorlanP, on 28 June 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

Better yet... Have PGI try the experiment for a day and strip them out.

Or even better, a weekend without PPC's

[Barantor]

Better yet, fix the things that make the PPC using mechs so viable?

Some things I have always been astonished about...

No weapon size restrictions on hard points beyond actual mech space.

Scaling of some Assaults and Heavies are way off (stalker bigger than catapult, quickdraw assault size).

I wouldn't even mind if there was a damage bonus for firing at mechs that had shut down....

I'm just a lurker though, what do I know lol.

[Zolaz]

What happens if PPCs just disappear? **looks inside his crystal ball** Looks like you QQ about something else.