366 replies to this topic

[Egomane]

Dumbed down and MW4 as the high point against the original rules? That is something I need to tell my friends at the table.

[Teralitha]

Egomane, on 11 June 2012 - 06:15 AM, said:

This has nothing to do with why we are against a 360° torso twist.

Do you remember the missions within cities in MW2:Mercs? How many times do you think I ran into a building when I looked the other way? I'll tell you... never! With a speed modded Jenner and torso twisting left and right I could run circles through those towns and never bump into anything. Yet I am against a 360° twist.

Keep looking for arguments why we don't want to, maybe one day you'll find out that it has balancing reasons. You may not see it because it worked so fine in MW4 (more arcade then simulation, mechs overall behavior is not what is canon in the BT-Universe) but it is a game breaker in a game where all mechs, no matter the weight, shall, by the will of the developers, remain playable.

Come on... how would you balance it? No one who is in favor of a 360° twist has mentioned any way to balance it, except to limit it to certain mechs. That is not balancing!

Uhh we already have given you the one shining example of how it was balanced in mechwarriors4, the battletech simulation game of 2000

Yes having it limited to a few mechs is balancing, its an already proven concept. Stop acting so ignorant and play mw4. Then come back here and tell us how it is... We already know, we did it.

Edited by Teralitha, 11 June 2012 - 08:18 AM.

[Egomane]

I have played MW4. Thank you, try again!

[MODOS]

the rule is the battletech clearly defined. getting upset about is that just as the aircraft did not fly. torso rotation depends on production

[Roland]

You guys aren't real good at the whole "communication" thing.

You guys need to step back, realize that neither one of you is trying to ruin the game, and accept that the other person is trying to make the game better. Then you can actually have a constructive conversation.

[Teralitha]

Gorith, on 11 June 2012 - 06:50 AM, said:

It's so obvious why it's a balance issue... but very well I will explain.

Firstly it removes a weakness from any chassis that has it.
Also when your talking about MWO in particular as I have already stated the devs are trying to encourage people to use all the weight classes and not just the ones that have the most firepower and armor. Part of the defence used against a larger opponent is by maximizing the amount of time you are in their weapon arc deadzone (And yes you can with proper throttle control and decent predictive skills do this) a mech with 360 twist has no dead zone to try to stay in and basically becomes a mobile turret capable of firing at anything within their line of sight.

Lets also go with the fact that unless you get majorly outflanked it becomes much easier to expose less damaged facings of your mech (while waiting on weapon cycles). Without 360 if your flanked properly you can not do this nearly as easy

You havent driven a 360 mech have you? why are all these ignorant people posting agaisnt something they have no experience doing? I swear... you do realize all these ppl here who are pro 360, are ppl who have actually done it? have actually seen the effects on a mechwarrior game and have no problem with it? They know the falvor it will bring to MWO if implemented, they KNOW it takes more skill to [pilot a 360 mechs, and they LIKE it. because they like a game of skill that takes more skill to be good at it. they LIKE the challenge. YOu want to dumb the game down to your TT level. I promise you the closer to TT this game is , the more boring it will be for alot of players. TT is a novely, but its not the way an actual simulation should be for the game to last.

Egomane, on 11 June 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

I have played MW4. Thank you, try again!

Fine, then go drive 360 mechs in mw4, then come back and tell us. because you obviously havent, or were jsut a noob who couldnt do it proficiently and was beaten down by someone who actually did master it.

No roland... the nay sayers are trying to have a dumbed down version of the game. while the pro 360'ers want a higher skill curve, which would make the game better.

[Scarlett Avignon]

While I don't think having 360 deg torso-twisting would be game breaking, I think it would add a bit more depth to piloting skill if it were limited. Remember, battlemechs are designed to mimic humanoid movement. No one can twist their waist totally around. Not that mechs don't ever break the limits of human movement ('chicken-legged' mechs) but they usually abide by basic tenants. I'm hoping there will perhaps be piloting skills that allow for faster torso rotation and maybe even allowing you to extend the rotation even farther.

Edited by Franklen Avignon, 11 June 2012 - 08:34 AM.

[Steel Talon]

Its same as USA turreted TDs in WoT, before they were added

& do u find them OP now?
if u are med driver only able to kill TDs by parking next to it then u probably do, but pls stay away from my team

[Teralitha]

Egomane, on 11 June 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

Dumbed down and MW4 as the high point against the original rules? That is something I need to tell my friends at the table.

MW4 was a simulation, MWO is going to be another simulation. If your so hard up on TT rules, then I suggest you leave here, and take a look at Mechwarrior Tactics, its more of what your looking for in a MW title. Has hexes and everything! Just like the TT game... Go there, and leave here. Thanks

[Scarlett Avignon]

Teralitha, on 11 June 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

You want to dumb the game down to your TT level.

That's kind of a silly thing to say. Almost anyone, except people who perhaps started with it, will say MW4 is a pretty terribly representation of the Mechwarrior franchise. Just look up a thread on 'legging' if you doubt me. The tabletop rules, while certainly not something you can go by verbatim for a simulator, provided for balanced game play.

I don't think your argument works out quite like you want it to. You're claiming that having 360 deg torso-twisting will mean more skill is required to pilot a mech, however I think you're mistaken, and here's why.

Having, say, a 75-105 deg torso rotation limit will mean that mechs will have a built-in blind-spot their weapons will not cover. This will discourage "lone wolf" tactics out on the battlefield and require more teamwork, as pilots will have to work together to ensure they will not be exposing themselves to the enemy. PRI has already said they want MWO to focus more on team play and role-warfare and less on individual unit play. They want us to have to work together, therefore, I think you're going to see limited torso-twisting.

[Egomane]

Roland, on 11 June 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

You guys aren't real good at the whole "communication" thing.

You guys need to step back, realize that neither one of you is trying to ruin the game, and accept that the other person is trying to make the game better. Then you can actually have a constructive conversation.

I can argue with you. I can see were you are coming from and your arguments are civil. We may not agree here but I can see what you are trying to do and that you have no ill intent.

Teralitha, on 11 June 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

You havent driven a 360 mech have you? why are all these ignorant people posting agaisnt something they have no experience doing? I swear... you do realize all these ppl here who are pro 360, are ppl who have actually done it? have actually seen the effects on a mechwarrior game and have no problem with it? They know the falvor it will bring to MWO if implemented, they KNOW it takes more skill to [pilot a 360 mechs, and they LIKE it. because they like a game of skill that takes more skill to be good at it. they LIKE the challenge. YOu want to dumb the game down to your TT level. I promise you the closer to TT this game is , the more boring it will be for alot of players. TT is a novely, but its not the way an actual simulation should be for the game to last.



Fine, then go drive 360 mechs in mw4, then come back and tell us. because you obviously havent, or were jsut a noob who couldnt do it proficiently and was beaten down by someone who actually did master it.

No roland... the nay sayers are trying to have a dumbed down version of the game. while the pro 360'ers want a higher skill curve, which would make the game better.

And here we get personal attacks and an opinion that refuses to take a step back and take a look at the others arguments. You may not want to acknowledge it, but I do know what I am talking about. I do have all the MW4 experience you may have and on top of that I have played all the other games, except Mechassault. My opinion is just as good as yours, but your only argument is MW4, while I try to look at the rulesset we will likey get. Please keep in mind, that all of us can argue all day long and the devs may still do something completly different. It is their game, not ours.

[Mercules]

Teralitha, on 11 June 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

MW4 was a simulation, MWO is going to be another simulation. If your so hard up on TT rules, then I suggest you leave here, and take a look at Mechwarrior Tactics, its more of what your looking for in a MW title. Has hexes and everything! Just like the TT game... Go there, and leave here. Thanks

MW4 was a POOR simulation. For actual piloting of a mech MW3 was the best of those Games.

It takes more skill to successfully pilot a mech with a more limited torso twist. You have to plan your movement to keep things within your firing arc and hitting that hard limit to the side means you planned poorly. Having 180 Degree turn means you don't hit that turn radius barrier and you can zip right up to a mech, run circles around it, and continue blasting like crazy. A mech with a more limited torso twist often has to throttle down to maintain firing arc on a mech while a 360 one can simply run full bore and do it. Not running into a wall is a rather simple skill to master.

Before you get on your, "Go play MW4 and then come back here after you have tried it." I have MW4 currently loaded on my system and am playing through it for what is probably the 11th? 12th? time. I've piloted mechs with 360 degree twist and they are "easy mode" compared to more restricted mechs. So you can understand what I think of your claim of "skill" needed to pilot them. The dumbing down of the game would not be coming from those wanting a more canon universe but for those advocating for MW4's "simulation".

[Frostiken]

Mechwarrior is as much a simulation of piloting a mech as Half-Life is a simulation of being a physicist.

[Roland]

Teralitha, on 11 June 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

No roland... the nay sayers are trying to have a dumbed down version of the game. while the pro 360'ers want a higher skill curve, which would make the game better.

You are, of course, free to choose your own path in this regard.

However, I would suggest that the tactic you are employing here will be poorly received, at best, and perhaps counter to your stated goals at worst. Antagonizing and insulting those who disagree with you may result in associating your ideas with arrogance and abrasiveness, resulting in knee-jerk reactions being brought against them regardless of their merit.

Likewise, if you demonize those who disagree with you, you may be blinding yourself to ideas which may not be as bad as you initially believe.

Your choice though. YMMV.

[Big Iron]

360 only on mechs that support it.

[Max Liao]

Teralitha, on 11 June 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

MW4 was a simulation, MWO is going to be another simulation. If your so hard up on TT rules, then I suggest you leave here, and take a look at Mechwarrior Tactics, its more of what your looking for in a MW title. Has hexes and everything! Just like the TT game... Go there, and leave here. Thanks

MechWarrior4 was not a simulation. It was an action game set in the BT/MW universe, and had little to nothing to do with "simulating" a MW piloting a 'Mech in the BT universe.

While I don't agree with all of the design decision of this game (yes, I am a TT purist), they seem to really be going out of their way to capture the *feel* of the piloting a BattleMech - not a giant space robot (as trademarked by Goon).

Frostiken, on 11 June 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

Mechwarrior is as much a simulation of piloting a mech as Half-Life is a simulation of being a physicist.

^^ This

With the exception of carrying the brand name, MW4 was as much BattleTech/MechWarrior as MechAssault (game) or RobotJox (movie).

For the people who want Giant Space Robot Action Game Deluxe with Kung Fu Grip, please, go make that game. It may be fun and I may play it. For those of us who want a BattleTech (read: a MechWarrior simulation) and not another Shogo or BF3 in super sized body armor, and have read the FAQ about staying close to the BT form of the game, 360 degree or even 180 degree twisting does not fit.

I get that in some cases game play must trump canon, and if they allowed some 'Mechs to turn as low as 45 degrees an up to 75 degrees for fluff I wouldn't get too crazy in my complaints, but anything more than 45/75 degrees (+/- 15 from standard) and in more than a VERY limited number of 'Mechs is too much. In this case, canon = proper game play for the proper feel for the BT/MW universe.

Instead of trying to turn this into a random action shooter, cope with the 'ficticious-realities' of the BattleTech universe.

------

This is Shogo, an action space robot shooter - not BattleTech. Maybe in this game (or StarSeige, or Heavy Gear, or ...) twisting all around fits, but no where does it fit in BattleTech/MechWarrior:
~

This is BattleTech:
~ http://mwomercs.com/...deo/3CWr3ZUQJeo

Edited by Max Liao, 11 June 2012 - 10:40 AM.

[Thomas Hogarth]

Roland, on 09 June 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

Ultimately, you can't really go by the TT rules regarding this... because things like the minutia of torso twist aren't really represented to a high degree of detail.

There are rules for a quirk that allows extended torso twist. There are no quirks that allow 360 twist.

IF the Mechlab is as open as it may be(we don't know for sure), I'm not all that hot on giving 'inferior' chassis a reacharound with bigger twist radiuses. Since it's possible that most 'Mechs in the game will be customized, the concept of a "bad" 'Mech will be exceedingly hard to define.

[Meldarth Sunphot]

Teralitha, on 11 June 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

You obviously never piloted a 360 mech before. Its a higher learning curve in piloting. Think of ice skating backwards... it requires more skill.

So yes, 360 isnt too powerful, unless your really really really good. And that is what your really afraid of isnt it... ace pilots able to do something proficiently that you cannot....and getting owned.

*sighs* I have piloted them; and piloted them well........sad fact is to me - MW4 is the weakest game in Mech for several reasons; not just because 360 twist........its way too arcady - Devs have already said they are not making an arcade game but a sim......

Raven in cannon never had 360 - it was already dangerous enough with his electronics that were on it - you wouldn't want a Raven anywhere near you as it could jam your radar; narc becon you among sneaking behind you and hitting you hard.

Devs have also said you're going to need teamwork......which means Jenners shouldn't having 360; doing circle jerks around an Atlas and take it down easy - now working with with a couple of your team members yes you then should be able to take down an Atlas......

Each class of mech takes skill to pilot - then compound that with working in an lance with electronic warfare.......

Again as I've bloody well said; reason there was no issue in MW4 is because ITS NOT A SIM BUT ARCADE SHOOTER. There is a world of difference when you get into sim like MW2/MW3 and then goto MW4........

MWO is not MW4 or MWLL - it is its own beast that the devs want to keep close to cannon as possible. There were no bipedal 360 twisters because the Exoskeleton couldn't handle it. Now Quads could - Devs put quads in......you can have your 360......

Its not about dumbing anything down - its about enjoying BT/MW - its about making sure balance is kept in the game where 360 would give certain makes a massive advantage over the rest - its the same reason devs really don't want 3rd person view in the game. It gives way too much tatical advantage......

[Gorith]

Teralitha, on 11 June 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

You havent driven a 360 mech have you? why are all these ignorant people posting agaisnt something they have no experience doing? I swear... you do realize all these ppl here who are pro 360, are ppl who have actually done it? have actually seen the effects on a mechwarrior game and have no problem with it? They know the falvor it will bring to MWO if implemented, they KNOW it takes more skill to [pilot a 360 mechs, and they LIKE it. because they like a game of skill that takes more skill to be good at it. they LIKE the challenge. YOu want to dumb the game down to your TT level. I promise you the closer to TT this game is , the more boring it will be for alot of players. TT is a novely, but its not the way an actual simulation should be for the game to last.



Fine, then go drive 360 mechs in mw4, then come back and tell us. because you obviously havent, or were jsut a noob who couldnt do it proficiently and was beaten down by someone who actually did master it.

No roland... the nay sayers are trying to have a dumbed down version of the game. while the pro 360'ers want a higher skill curve, which would make the game better.

Sir you are completely off. yes I have driven mechs with 360 torso twists in MW4. add ontop of that I have been playing tank simulations since the mid 90s (started with armored fist) and mechwarrior games later in the 90s when i picked up MW2:mercs (though it had been out for a few years at that point). I still play tank sims and mech games and in my experience piloting/driving something with a 360 degree arc is MUCH easier than something with a limited arc this includes mechs.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

Zoggy, on 09 June 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

360 deg torso twists are pretty rare. What about the rear mounted lasers and the arms with no lower actuators being able to fire behind you?

you'd almost have to have a seperate screen just to see what was behind you, but its not a terrible idea and there are some cannon mechs that had this feature.