18 replies to this topic

[Rhent]

ECM was a huge issue for an extremely long time. It was Piranha's own pride that they let ECM fester like the steaming boil it was in MWO. It's also Piranha's pride that we are being stuck with pinpoint high alpha damage with little to no downside to having that capability.

The future downsides are:
1st) Fire more than 30pts of damage for a single weapon type you get a *cute* heat penalty
2nd) Adjusting the heat system so that over 150% heat you have problems <OH MY!>
3rd) Movement penalties due to inclines

All of these measures are somehow meant to curve High Alpha mech strikes. All of these changes are pure unadulterated garbage to keep the existing pinpoint damage in game. What you will see are Victors and Highlanders sporting Gauss + 3 PPC + JJ's. They will jump up the hills, land, fire their alpha and then slide back down the hill. There is NO HEAT on the Gauss to speak off.

Any penalty to deal with pinpoint damage has to take AC's into account and Piranha isn't doing that in ANY of the updates. A logical way to deal with the high alpha damage is convergence. Figure out a way to make it where if you fire multiple weapons from different locations, you won't hit the same spot on the target. The further out you go, the worse the convergence is, to the point where you could actually have 1/2 your shot miss.

Edited by Rhent, 29 June 2013 - 09:03 PM.

[PEEFsmash]

Stop complaining that people's shots are going where they aim them. Please. You can balance a game better than making shots go random places.

[Rhent]

PEEFsmash, on 29 June 2013 - 09:02 PM, said:

Stop complaining that people's shots are going where they aim them. Please. You can balance a game better than making shots go random places.

Hardly. Piranha will either have to implement a hard point limitation or convergence. Gauss easily bypasses any heat penalty that Piranha puts in. The only way to go with a heat penalty would be to also include Gauss as 2 PPC's. Piranha so far hasn't stated they will do that. They are completely ignoring the Gauss and AC/20 elephants in the room.

Meanwhile convergence or hard point limitations fixes the issue.

[PEEFsmash]

Rhent, on 29 June 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

Hardly. Piranha will either have to implement a hard point limitation or convergence. Gauss easily bypasses any heat penalty that Piranha puts in. The only way to go with a heat penalty would be to also include Gauss as 2 PPC's. Piranha so far hasn't stated they will do that. They are completely ignoring the Gauss and AC/20 elephants in the room.

Meanwhile convergence or hard point limitations fixes the issue.

Gauss and AC20s aren't as good as people would make you think. Gauss is pretty good, but has weaknesses, and AC20s are not even really used competitively.

[Rhent]

PEEFsmash, on 29 June 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

Gauss and AC20s aren't as good as people would make you think. Gauss is pretty good, but has weaknesses, and AC20s are not even really used competitively.

I must not be low enough to be in your bracket, I'll make a new account. Gauss + 3 PPC = a solid build, and it will take ZERO heat penalty from the DEV's proposed heat penalty system. Even with the heat penalty system, its a complete joke. All you have to do is wait 1/2 second to fire your other shot. You can macro your alpha to get the exact same effect and still hit the DEV's limit perfectly w/ no heat penalty.

[Ningyo]

There are many forms of removing instant pinpoint convergence that do not prevent shots from going where they aim. That said just saying do it does not help, coming up with a method to do it and sharing might. Right now there are at least 20 threads on this forum about this very topic some with very thought out if imperfect methods. ( I personally like a couple)


The problem is to make a proper non instant convergence you need to meet a few criteria:

Easy to use : if its too complicated new players may be turned off of the game, and even veterans may find it more work than fun.


Still allows you to place shots exactly where you aim: this is one of the tricky parts and is normally attempted with convergence over time, or multiple reticles for different weapons sort of like the present arm/CT reticles

Fixes present and likely future balance problems without creating major new ones: Players can tell or guess at some of this but only devs really know what they plan for the future (clan weapons etc.)

There are likely other things it needs to pull off too so this is far from a simple thing to suggest. That said I agree that it needs to be done.

Oh and in response to later posts, a recoil system (which causes its own problems) is another solution to multiple ballistc and PPC though it does nothing about conceivable laser issues.

Edited by Ningyo, 29 June 2013 - 09:19 PM.

[Unbound Inferno]

Just wait till they properly fix hit registration in this game. Then we'd really see what the damage should be on the receiving end.

[Otto Cannon]

PEEFsmash, on 29 June 2013 - 09:02 PM, said:

Stop complaining that people's shots are going where they aim them. Please. You can balance a game better than making shots go random places.

Stop pretending that a good convergence fix would make shots random. Please.
If you look at DocBach's thread as a good example you'll see that there's just more to take into account when firing than the current childishly simple version. You'll still know where every shot will go. You should like being able to demonstrate your skill even better if you're good.

A proper convergence solution is the only possible thing that will work now and also after we have clan mechs.

[Profiteer]

No.

If you want to play a game with random hits and no twitch skills, Mechwarrior Tactics is currently in beta.

This is a FPS.

[Otto Cannon]

Profiteer, on 29 June 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

No.

If you want to play a game with random hits and no twitch skills, Mechwarrior Tactics is currently in beta.

This is a FPS.

See above. Nothing random about it.

In fact it removes random badly aimed shots from noobs still killing you because of pinpoint.

[p00k]

Ningyo, on 29 June 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

There are many forms of removing instant pinpoint convergence that do not prevent shots from going where they aim.

this game doesn't have instant pinpoint convergence...

[PEEFsmash]

Rhent, on 29 June 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

I must not be low enough to be in your bracket, I'll make a new account.

My win rate in my last 300 games is 4.5:1. My solo-pugging win rate is 2:1. I am the starting light pilot for DV8 who just won the first season of Last Mech Standing and is undefeated in the second bracket. Do you still need to make a new account?

3ERPPC+Gauss is a good build. You can balance it by increasing PPC heat, slowing the PPC projectile, and most importantly, buffing brawling. Making shots random is not a solution.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 29 June 2013 - 09:28 PM.

[Unbound Inferno]

Profiteer, on 29 June 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

No.

If you want to play a game with random hits and no twitch skills, Mechwarrior Tactics is currently in beta.

This is a FPS.

Ya know, it never ceases to amaze me how everyone reads "no convergence" and automatically assume "random hits" like that.

No convergence means you end up with where you aim being one spot, but one weapon hits on the left, and other on the right because they don't line up to that point you look at. You "know" where they land, so you can adjust with that 'skill' you all flaunt about with. Use it and you'd find that it means you don't land 4 hits on the CT, but rather one or two on the CT and another on the arm or side torso. Sure the tragedy is you don't kill in one shot that way, but that's the whole point.

[Soy]

Convergence ain't a thang bro
Let your alpha go
No guns slang low
Do the fandango

[Unbound Inferno]

PEEFsmash, on 29 June 2013 - 09:27 PM, said:

3ERPPC+Gauss is a good build. You can balance it by increasing PPC heat, slowing the PPC projectile, and most importantly, buffing brawling. Making shots random is not a solution.

Okay, lemme ask you that - how would we buff brawling if the brawlers get cored outside their range? How can they be buffed with seismic making it impossible to get within 400m? I have to break it to you, it can't be buffed so long as 3ERPPC+Gauss remains such a 'good build' with that accuracy to reliably land that high-damage hit. That is what needs to go.

Raising PPC heat back where it should is a good start, but it won't stop the problem of that combination being so good it remains the top option.

[Rhent]

PEEFsmash, on 29 June 2013 - 09:27 PM, said:

My win rate in my last 300 games is 4.5:1. My solo-pugging win rate is 2:1. I am the starting light pilot for DV8 who just won the first season of Last Mech Standing and is undefeated in the second bracket. Do you still need to make a new account?

3ERPPC+Gauss is a good build. You can balance it by increasing PPC heat, slowing the PPC projectile, and most importantly, buffing brawling. Making shots random is not a solution.

From reading your posts, I'm pretty sure I need to make a new account. Your grasps on basics of gameplay is lacking.

[PEEFsmash]

Unbound Inferno, on 29 June 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

Okay, lemme ask you that - how would we buff brawling if the brawlers get cored outside their range? How can they be buffed with seismic making it impossible to get within 400m? I have to break it to you, it can't be buffed so long as 3ERPPC+Gauss remains such a 'good build' with that accuracy to reliably land that high-damage hit. That is what needs to go.

Raising PPC heat back where it should is a good start, but it won't stop the problem of that combination being so good it remains the top option.

Seismic needs nerfed as well. Do you want my full list of balance changes? Its all easy stuff. Laser Buff, huge SRM buff, slight sniper buff, basically remove seismic entirely, increase light/medium maneuverability. Snipers will be good as support, but you will get rolled over if you go nothing except snipers. That's the way the game should be.

Rhent, on 29 June 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

From reading your posts, I'm pretty sure I need to make a new account. Your grasps on basics of gameplay is lacking.

Its easy to say that from your low-average Elo, isn't it? What about the basics of gameplay do you think I don't understand? I play with and against the top players in this game on a daily basis.

I'm streaming right now @ http://www.twitch.tv/peefsmash. If you want to talk about me, bring it to my channel, no need to do it here.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 29 June 2013 - 09:41 PM.

[Rhent]

PEEFsmash, on 29 June 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

Seismic needs nerfed as well. Do you want my full list of balance changes? Its all easy stuff. Laser Buff, huge SRM buff, slight sniper buff, basically remove seismic entirely, increase light/medium maneuverability. Snipers will be good as support, but you will get rolled over if you go nothing except snipers. That's the way the game should be.



Its easy to say that from your low-average Elo, isn't it? What about the basics of gameplay do you think I don't understand? I play with and against the top players in this game on a daily basis.

I'm streaming right now @ www.twitch.tv/peefsmash. If you want to talk about me, bring it to my channel.

Meanwhile, my Gauss, ERPPC, 2 PPC build has good long, excellent medium and good short range damage, excellent heat dissipation and none of the planned gameplay mechanics that Piranha has planned will limit that builds effectiveness. Convergence on the other hand could. There are plenty of ways of dealing with damage rather than tonnage and heat.

[PEEFsmash]

Rhent, on 29 June 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

Meanwhile, my Gauss, ERPPC, 2 PPC build has good long, excellent medium and good short range damage, excellent heat dissipation and none of the planned gameplay mechanics that Piranha has planned will limit that builds effectiveness. Convergence on the other hand could. There are plenty of ways of dealing with damage rather than tonnage and heat.

I don't care what ways PGI has planned to limit that builds effectiveness, PGI is bad at balancing.

Making SRM damage 2.5, making laser heat lower and having PPC heat higher and projectile slower as well as nerfing Seismic to 100m range and increasing LBX damage to 1.5 per pellet would have you losing to a heavy brawler, maybe even a medium brawler if they got anywhere close, which they would if they have any coordination. It will still be a good build as it should, but it won't beat everything in the game as it does right now.