16 replies to this topic

[XX Sulla XX]

Reading all the forums on fixing balance got me to thinking. What does the community agree is an acceptable pinpoint alpha strike. I hear a lot of vocal thoughts on this but I am curios what a poll will show.

Also you are welcome to talk about the way you think it is best fixed. For example adding heat and or weight to weopons. Redoing aiming to spread the damage. Giving heat penalties for boating etc.

One thing interesting about knowing where people want the limit to be is it changes the best way to get the desired result. Is it a minor tweek of weopons or a large change of how the game works.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 02 July 2013 - 08:16 AM.

[Ningyo]

Unfortunately this does not really properly address the issue.

For instance a 40 dmg alpha at a max range of 270m like AC/20s is not nearly as bad as 40 damage at 540m or 660m ranges.

I would say though that in general rule of thumb should be to avoid 33+ damage or make the player sacrifice to exceed that. This is because that is the number that guarantees a instant kill if you hit the cockpit. Many convergence methods for instant allow all weapons in a single location to hit the same point, so a hunchback could put 4LL or PPC in its hump for huge alpha. It has to make major sacrifices to get that alpha then though so its fine. The problem is most of the best pinpoint loadouts don't need to make any sacrifices at all.

[Aerik Lornes]

0 is my answer for pinpoint accuracy alphas.

Pinpoint hits by single weapons would be 20 (i.e. the AC/20).

Edited by Aerik Lornes, 02 July 2013 - 12:06 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I agree with the 33+ for grouped weapons fire. It should not be higher than that without drawbacks.

Maybe there could be restrictions in grouping weapons, if damage in a weapon group goes above 25 or 30, then chain fire is forced automatically, as another alternative to reduce high pin-point damage.

[MustrumRidcully]

I think range matters a bit in this, but, if I had to take a value across the board, 30 seems fine. We dealt with that fine back in the Closed Beta days when Gauss K2s were everywhere. (Not that it wasn't one of the most powerful builds in CB then, but from the question of game pace, this was not too much damage to feel really too fast. The problem was only that you couldn't do something like that with other weapons, like the PPC, because everything else was way too hot.)

[soarra]

if you want to blow all your weapons feel free, but they should not hit the same spot.

[XX Sulla XX]

Interesting results so far. Seems several people want no alpha strike besides what one weopon can do. And then another group likes the 30-35 range.

[Kunae]

I reject your premise. The alpha# has no relevance.

[Gaan Cathal]

MustrumRidcully, on 02 July 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

I think range matters a bit in this, but, if I had to take a value across the board, 30 seems fine. We dealt with that fine back in the Closed Beta days when Gauss K2s were everywhere. (Not that it wasn't one of the most powerful builds in CB then, but from the question of game pace, this was not too much damage to feel really too fast. The problem was only that you couldn't do something like that with other weapons, like the PPC, because everything else was way too hot.)

Honestly, 40 isn't too bad at close range. Manageable. The problem is really when you're getting close to one-shotting compartments (i.e. one shot takes them to the point that any fool waving a laser around will finish it off) because of the incredibly low TTK for minimal effort.

Kunae, on 03 July 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

I reject your premise. The alpha# has no relevance.

[MaddMaxx]

MustrumRidcully, on 02 July 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

I think range matters a bit in this,

snip for brevity of read

Range is the "key" to why so many other weapons are left on the shelf. It makes sense but not an unsolvable problem. AS noted, in CB the 2 x Gauss was not bad as you could escape after being targeted, unlike the 4-5 PPC reaming you get now.

However, why would it be a bad thing to have the Fall -off damage values not be independent of the weapon on a one off basis? (not an original, nor my idea btw)

A slug fired by magnetism has only to deal with atmospheric drag, whereas a plasma based projectile would have all kinds of issue retaining its potency during extended flight times.

What if a (er)PPC's ( the sole Plasma based weapons) drop off rates were between 40 - 50 % more than Ballistics. Missiles are propelled and have built in maximums already.

That way, the PPC gets 10 points of damage out to 540m, then gets only 2.5 out to 810m, instead of the current 5 points. Reduce the pain of the 5 PPC boat by 50% after its max range.

We could call it the "Plasma Cohesion Co-Efficient Deficiency factor. Or PCCD for short. LOL

soarra, on 02 July 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

if you want to blow all your weapons feel free, but they should not hit the same spot.

And how exactly do you spread those weapons on a target that is +750m away and is about as big as a peanut? Missing just for giggles, prevents said giggles big time.

[XX Sulla XX]

I agree the more I think about it the more I think they can balance it without having to make extreme changes to the way the game works. Just more tweeks to the weopons. Try and set it up so say you can be a sniper with a good size alpha but even less close range than a PPC has now. And make the ERPPC have worse trade offs with more heat and or weight etc. And maybe cut down on the effective range of things like the AC20. And so buff the SRMs etc. Just tweek what we have.

[Soy]

MaddMaxx, on 03 July 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

We could call it the "Plasma Cohesion Co-Efficient Deficiency factor. Or PCCD for short. LOL

I agree, LOL. What the ****? I mean god DAMN I heard some convoluted **** befo, but dis hurr take dat cake, aite boi

[soarra]

MaddMaxx, on 03 July 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

Range is the "key" to why so many other weapons are left on the shelf. It makes sense but not an unsolvable problem. AS noted, in CB the 2 x Gauss was not bad as you could escape after being targeted, unlike the 4-5 PPC reaming you get now.

However, why would it be a bad thing to have the Fall -off damage values not be independent of the weapon on a one off basis? (not an original, nor my idea btw)

A slug fired by magnetism has only to deal with atmospheric drag, whereas a plasma based projectile would have all kinds of issue retaining its potency during extended flight times.

What if a (er)PPC's ( the sole Plasma based weapons) drop off rates were between 40 - 50 % more than Ballistics. Missiles are propelled and have built in maximums already.

That way, the PPC gets 10 points of damage out to 540m, then gets only 2.5 out to 810m, instead of the current 5 points. Reduce the pain of the 5 PPC boat by 50% after its max range.

We could call it the "Plasma Cohesion Co-Efficient Deficiency factor. Or PCCD for short. LOL



And how exactly do you spread those weapons on a target that is +750m away and is about as big as a peanut? Missing just for giggles, prevents said giggles big time.

fixing convergence

[skullman86]

What matters is how accurate the alpha is, not the actual damage value.

[Monky]

For getting one burst of any combination of weaponry on a single point at the same trigger pull, i'd like to see 20 be the max.

Staggering fire to avoid this is acceptable as a workaround.

[Ningyo]

you make weapons not hit the same point but still be able to hit the target at 750m+ by having either no convergence(often torso only in many ideas) which causes the shots to be parallel so if your RT and LT are 4m apart then at 50m the shots will be 4m apart, and at 750m the shots will still be 4m apart.

The other common convergence method that solves this is to have your weapons always converge at their set Range. So a PPC in RT and a PPC in LT 4m apart would be 4m apart on leaving the barrel, 2m apart at 270m, pinpoint at 540m 2m apart at 810m, and 4m apart at 1080m again.

Some other methods allow for standing still or such to give you perfect aim, while moving adds some spread so you could still hit that 750m target exactly where you want, you just can't do it while running around.

There are other methods too.

[XX Sulla XX]

For long range weopons like PPC and ACs just give them the same arc as a bullet. And also have it effected by wind. For lasers they can stay as they are since they are hard to hold on target. Then sniping will take more skill as it should. You could also give the HUD a wind speed indicator. You might also need to give PPCs more heat but that can be worked out. Then shorten the range of the AC20 and buff the SRMs.

I think it would work with some basic changes like this. It makes sense to me for something to have a high alpha if you are 10m in front of it. Thats fine. Just make it so faster medium and light mechs have a chance to stay at range. And snipers are fine with bigger alphas if it takes more skill for long shots.