65 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

Unlike my other threads, this is not about the invisible wall dead stop issue or inability to climb knee-high stuff. This is about typical overland movement.

The whole point of the movement system was to give lights and mediums an easier time of moving around on rough and steep terrain, or even access areas assaults would have trouble accessing.

However, in addition to the system's other issues.. it's not benefiting the lights and mediums nearly enough, due to the rapid speed falloff canceling their momentum.

The result? Mediums get slowed down almost as badly as assaults running up hills - and cannot clear hills that assaults could not also clear in most cases. Mediums also get slowed down on "flat land" if it slopes too much. Three times on Forest colony I happened to run over some flat looking terrain that sloped a little too high and found my speed plummeting to under 40 from nearly 100 in under a second several times.

Assaults have tons of armor and don't move very quick. These brief speed losses don't hurt them nearly as badly as a result. But any medium "caught on a slope" that happens to hit JUST the right degree to sap the engine.. and bam. The medium is screwed.

I'd really think the penalty should be way, way more stacked for rough terrain - something like:

20% reduced speed (lights)
30% reduced speed (mediums)
50% reduced speed (heavies)
70% reduced speed (assaults)

(Yes I am aware it's based on "size" and not "tonnage." Why, I have no idea.)

It also drop the momentum considerably slower. Less "1 second full stop" and more "6 seconds to full stop." That way hitting these little bumps in the terrain might start reducing a Centurion's speed to 30 (where the slope would drop you now), thus only dropping it a few KPH before the Cent pilot gets off of the slope and recovers.

Likewise, momentum would allow mediums and lights to actually clear rolling hills that they should be able to. As it stands now a Centurion moving at 110 cannot clear the snow drifts on Alpine. NO, NOT THE HILLS. The snow drifts. The little puddles of snow now defeat a fast medium just as badly as an assault.

Long story short, this system could be used to give lighter mechs a huge shot in the arm they've been needing. In fact, it's kind of genius for that - we could later see maps with rolling hills that would favor mediums, as well as swamp maps to do the same by applying the same "climbing speed reductions" to water. That would be awesome and a great way to help balance classes thinking out side of the box.

Instead we have a "one wrong turn and you're a sitting duck, and you can't really clear terrain assaults can't.. and if you're in a medium or light without jets, that Highlander with jets is now going to outmaneuver you on some terrain."

This was meant to help lights & mediums and it hurt them instead, as well as the overall game. Again there are other problems with this system and the dead stops.. but even if they fix that, it's still the reverse of what we need right now.

[Lykaon]

Took out my 2 ER-PPC,2 PPC stalker to see how much the new heat damage effects the PPC boat (If you're wondering it didn't do jack and/or squat)

While doing this I noticed that the new terrain movement mechanic may have done more to curtail Boat snipers than the useless heat damage mechanics.Now I can't easily access the choice sniping spots.

But shortly after I notice all those targets suddenly slowing down or halting right out in the open.It was a turkey shoot so in the end I would say 4x PPC stalkers got an early X-mas gift and not a nerf.

The terrain mechanics have promise but as they are currently I would say the Devs would have better served the game by waiting to shake out the buggyness and actually have it sufficently play tested.

Unless of course the design goal is for the terrain mechanics to be overly punative and force battles in to narrow paths.

[Cervantes88]

What Lykaon said.

This patch with the new movement is a huge buff for PPC/Ballistics alpha builds.

And bad ones at that, the ones that couldn't hit you when moving at full speed.

Sad

[Syllogy]

Sorry, but I can't find anywhere that says the movement mechanics were supposed to buff lights and mediums. What it does do is limit the terrain that every mech can access, resulting in a need to actually navigate instead of bounce off of buildings like a pinball or sprint up hills like a monkey.

[Victor Morson]

Syllogy, on 03 July 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

Sorry, but I can't find anywhere that says the movement mechanics were supposed to buff lights and mediums. What it does do is limit the terrain that every mech can access, resulting in a need to actually navigate instead of bounce off of buildings like a pinball or sprint up hills like a monkey.

No, what limiting terrain every mech can access is turn what was a previously outdoor simulation game and turn it into a freaking corridor shooter. Holy crap that is dumb, in particular when people try to suggest the current implementation makes the game "sim like."

When I picture a giant robot trying to clear knee-high surfaces in a simulation, I picture it running back and forth in place and occasionally coming to a dead halt..

PS: Ironic you call what we could do before being a monkey, because now you just literally map monkey your way to the same positions. Trust me, you are not stopping the good players from reaching positions, you're just screwing everything else up with this.

Lykaon, on 03 July 2013 - 03:25 AM, said:

But shortly after I notice all those targets suddenly slowing down or halting right out in the open.It was a turkey shoot so in the end I would say 4x PPC stalkers got an early X-mas gift and not a nerf.

My favorite is if you are running close to a wall, and your left/right foot happens to get close to the wall and thinks you are going up a "slant" and then makes you start losing speed like mad. I got my Centurion beat to hell by simply banking near a wall and next thing I know I'm at about 40kp/h. Yes, I cleared the wall before anyone tries to say that.

[scJazz]

Within 16hrs you actually had to start 3 different polls with 3 different walls of text? Seriously? Try playing the game cause... I'm not seeing any issues really.

[Thundercles]

Having played a decent number of matches, about the only real effect I've seen is the elimination of flanking routes and forcing people out into the open for PPC boats. I like the INTENT behind the movement system, but it could stand some tweaking.

I do wonder where the 45 degree number was pulled from - the whole thing about mechs was that they were more mobile than wheeled/tracked vehicles... yet modern tanks can park on 60 degree slopes without a problem. I say at this point, bring on the Demolisher.

[Mystere]

Considering that my Spiders had a grand time last night shooting at the back -- or face, depending on position -- of Atlases and Stalkers desperately trying to cross terrain, I can surely say JJ-equipped lights were not wrecked by the movement changes.

I've never ever soloed an Atlas before in a Spider armed with only 4 machine guns and a medium pulse laser. Revenge was so sweet I could almost cry ( ). Although I was probably helped by some nasty ammo explosions.

But I am sure this will only be temporary while people are still trying to get used to the changes.

Edited by Mystere, 03 July 2013 - 10:03 AM.

[ErikModi]

I think the system as-is is a step in the right direction, but needs some tweaking. The main problem is 'Mech's slowing down or stopping for "inclines" that are terrain features that aren't even knee-high for the 'Mech in question. I was slowed by several small boulders and such on various maps last night, and once on Frozen City, actually stopped dead on the dropship by a "vertical" that probably didn't even come halfway up my 'Mech's foot. Worst of all, because I had no forward momentum, my jump jets wouldn't let me jump that tiny little curb and move forward. Which brings in another flaw with how the system interacts wityh forward momentum and jump jets, but that's probably a discussion more for jump jets proper.

[hammerreborn]

This is as biased a poll that I've ever seen.

[Khobai]

Quite frankly it makes no sense that Light mechs can go up slopes easier than Assault mechs anyway. Both are affected by friction and gravity equally so the penalty should be exactly the same for both. The only thing that should affect how fast you go up a hill is your max speed. Tonnage shouldn't make any difference.

[The14th]

People seem to keep forgetting how "beta" development works. The large pool of beta players are primarily used to crash into all the bugs and problems as loudly as possible, as It is generally impossible for a small internal QA team to find most of the bugs in a new feature. So suck it up and file some bug reports!

[Delas Ting Usee]

I agree with most who say that the idea behind the new movement system is great, the execution of it not so much. What worries me now is that with the new movement implementation channels combat down certain predictable routes.
It takes away any tactical benefit to flank now because...well now you can't flank unless you in a jump capable mech which means no longer will you see Atlas (Atlai?), Stalkers or Awesomes, but they'll be replace with Highlander's and Victors...same with certain Heavies.
Another nail in the coffin?

Edited by Delas Ting Usee, 03 July 2013 - 09:27 AM.

[xDeityx]

The14th, on 03 July 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

People seem to keep forgetting how "beta" development works. The large pool of beta players are primarily used to crash into all the bugs and problems as loudly as possible, as It is generally impossible for a small internal QA team to find most of the bugs in a new feature. So suck it up and file some bug reports!

You think you are a beta tester in a beta test? That's simply not true.

Quote

be·ta test
noun 

A trial of machinery, software, or other products, in the final stages of its development, carried out by a party unconnected with its development

PGI can call this whatever they want, but they do not get to redefine what a beta is.

Edited by xDeityx, 03 July 2013 - 09:29 AM.

[The14th]

xDeityx, on 03 July 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

You think you are a beta tester in a beta test? That's simply not true.



PGI can call this whatever they want, but they do not get to redefine what a beta is.

Did you actually bother to read that definition before you hit ctrl+v? Balance and bug hunting are exactly what you do in the final stages of development, so either you can't read or are a troll.

[xDeityx]

The14th, on 03 July 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

Did you actually bother to read that definition before you hit ctrl+v? Balance and bug hunting are exactly what you do in the final stages of development, so either you can't read or are a troll.

We are not in the final stages of development, not by a long shot. We are missing huge chunks of the game.

Beta tests are feature-complete or very close to it. We are in a public alpha test that we have the option to pay for.

Also, why so hostile? Just because I post a dissenting opinion I am either illiterate or a troll? That's not the way to have an honest conversation man. Can you point out to me the portion of the definition I quoted that you think disagrees with what I said?

[Captain Wolfsburg]

xDeityx, on 03 July 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

You think you are a beta tester in a beta test? That's simply not true.



PGI can call this whatever they want, but they do not get to redefine what a beta is.

Yeah, this stopped being a "beta" the moment they monetized the game. But if there's still an option for bug reports, people should use it anyway. Someone has to be paid to read that stuff.

xDeityx, on 03 July 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

We are not in the final stages of development, not by a long shot. We are missing huge chunks of the game.

Beta tests are feature-complete or very close to it. We are in a public alpha test that we have the option to pay for.

Also, why so hostile? Just because I post a dissenting opinion I am either illiterate or a troll? That's not the way to have an honest conversation man. Can you point out to me the portion of the definition I quoted that you think disagrees with what I said?

Oh, well I misread what you meant then. Yeah, in that respect makes more sense.

[Shae Starfyre]

All they need to do is run an algorithm to ignore anything under a certain height; whereby it returns to being bumpy only. Nothing fancy. Just choose some height based on the average height of all mechs' legs (maybe just mediums and lights if you want to give them a boost), and have this mechanic ignored for anything less than that height. Smooth sailing from then on out.

This can also be apply to the lip of a rise (if you get there, let it be bumping as you move forward gaining momentum instead of this sudden stop behavior.

This is all.

[Cubivorre]

Basically, if you don't have JJs, you're SOL.

[SpiralRazor]

Khobai, on 03 July 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

Quite frankly it makes no sense that Light mechs can go up slopes easier than Assault mechs anyway. Both are affected by friction and gravity equally so the penalty should be exactly the same for both. The only thing that should affect how fast you go up a hill is your max speed. Tonnage shouldn't make any difference.

true.