115 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

Support is working on trying to resolve new problems that have cropped up with the Movement code. Specifically, the Pebbles of Steel.

The new movement code is meant to help balance gameplay in respect to emphasizing mobility as a strength on the battlefield, but the new code has caused some significant mobility problems. Light and Medium Mechs are being stopped-cold by small rocks and things, which is resulting in easy potshots upon them. All Mechs are affected by this Pebble of Steel effect, too, but it's particularly bad when your Jenner is cruising along at full tilt and you suddenly slow-down to "Target Speed" for no reason.

In an effort to improve gameplay, the Support Team is soliciting help to identify the map/grid locations of these evil little caltrop pebbles. Here's a link to the thread where information is being requested, and a quote of it:

Niko Snow, on 03 July 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

This is a separate stuck thread for the purpose of identifying any decorative rock outcroppings which are overtly affecting 'Mech movement.

Please attempt to respond to the following questions in your responses:

• The map affected.
  
• The grid tile affected.
  
• The Mech used to achieve the collision issue.

So, it'd be nice if folks could use the F9 key and get the grid location of the small pebbles and little decorative things that stop you... that shouldn't stop you. Then visit that thread and post the information requested in the bullet points. Thanks!

__________________________________________________________


So, aside from reporting the Pebbles problem, I'd like to know if people think this new mevement Code has affected Gameplay balance from the perspective of Mobility vs Firepower. From the beginning of the game, all Mechs traveled like extremely torquey wheeled vehicles, effortlessly "rolling" up and down most hills. This was most evident in the chases that take place around small, rolling hills.

The new tiers in the movement code will have a big effect when it comes to chases that take place between Mechs of different movement tiers among rolling hills, specifically because you'll see Top Speed changes for one Mech while the other Mech retains it's full Top Speed. That change, alone, will have a huge impact on the tactics of "Light Hunting" by larger, up-engined Mechs. They won't be able to maintain 80kph over rolling hills to chase that fleeing Light before it gets out of range...

Does anyone else see this as being a major change on the field? or does Light Hunting not play as strong of a role for this to matter much?... or am I totally off base on this?

Edited by Prosperity Park, 03 July 2013 - 09:28 AM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Mediums should be the premier Light Hunters, and should suffer deceleration only slightly worse than Lights.

Mediums now become useful

It's a good idea, but 45 degrees is a weak stopping point, I would say that at least Light-Medium mechs should be able to scale up to 60 degree angles (with some speed loss) where as Heavies and Assaults should remain unable to scale past 45-50.

Edited by AntiCitizenJuan, 03 July 2013 - 09:22 AM.

[Monky]

Movement code definitely makes jumpjets about mobility, and the pebbles of steel could be solved with a re-work of the movement code to ignore small obstacles or only slow down slightly when encountering them while still allowing the mech to traverse them.

I am already noticing that Alpine plays differently on conquest - the low elevation team usually caps epsilon and fights at kappa rather than the high elevation team capping epsilon and fighting there, letting scouts duke it out over the other points, and this is directly due to the inability to 'hill hump' or climb ridiculous angles.

[FupDup]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 03 July 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Mediums should be the premier Light Hunters, and should suffer deceleration only slightly worse than Lights.

Mediums now become useful

Light hunting would only be a useful role if lights were useful (beyond capping).

Edited by FupDup, 03 July 2013 - 09:21 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 03 July 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Mediums should be the premier Light Hunters, and should suffer deceleration only slightly worse than Lights.

Mediums now become useful

That's kind of how they planned it. Here's a snippit from the base thread:

Quote

For the purposes of these movement changes, there are five movement archetypes. Each one has a different threshold at which its Mechs will begin to slow down. I'll call this SlowdownAngle. The SlowdownAngle is different for each archetype. Here is a list of the archetypes, and which mech belongs in which archetype. You will notice that the archetype does not necessarily coincide with the mech's weight class.

Tiny: Jenner, Commando, Spider
SlowdownAngle: 40°

Small: Raven, Cicada
SlowdownAngle: 35°

Medium: Blackjack, Centurion, Dragon, JagerMech, Trebuchet, Cataphract, Hunchback
SlowdownAngle: 30°

Large: Quickdraw, Stalker, Awesome, Catapult
SlowdownAngle: 25°

Huge: Atlas, Highlander, Victor
SlowdownAngle: 20°

Would bumping all the Medium Mechs to the small bracket be a good thing? I think the Tiny bracket and the Small brackets should be reserved for the Lights and the 40-tonners, because they do need some kind of differentiation between the smaller and bigger Light Mechs (15-tons is a HUGE difference in weight if you're talking about 20 vs 35 tons). if you dump the medium Mechs into the small bracket, then the heavier Light Mechs are no longer "more mobile" from the Movement Code perspective than Medium Mechs...

Edited by Prosperity Park, 03 July 2013 - 09:25 AM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Prosperity Park, on 03 July 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

Mediums are being put into the same movement bracket as most of the Heavies. Which is another reason why Heavies are generally seen as better Mediums. More armor, more weapons, same speed.

Mediums need more maneuverability to become more viable. Otherwise people will continue to exclusively play Heavies and Assaults.

I'm saying they need to expand the 45 degree angle cap to around 60, then spread out those same stats more with the Lights and Mediums being most maneuverable by a significant amount.

Edited by AntiCitizenJuan, 03 July 2013 - 09:26 AM.

[xDeityx]

Right now the biggest gameplay advantage doesn't come from the different sizes and how they are affected by slopes but rather by the depth of understanding that a player has about the new movement system and the counter-intuitive impacts it has on their 'mech.

But there's a ton of feedback already on the front page of this very forum, don't make people re-type the posts that they've already put a lot of time and thought into please:

http://mwomercs.com/...ant-to-improve/

http://mwomercs.com/...r-ppc-stalkers/

http://mwomercs.com/...-4-and-the-90s/

http://mwomercs.com/...video-tutorial/

http://mwomercs.com/...-canyon-stream/

http://mwomercs.com/...can-be-alright/

http://mwomercs.com/...eed-to-1-not-0/

[Felicitatem Parco]

xDeityx, on 03 July 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

Right now the biggest gameplay advantage doesn't come from the different sizes and how they are affected by slopes but rather by the depth of understanding that a player has about the new movement system and the counter-intuitive impacts it has on their 'mech.

But there's a ton of feedback already on the front page of this very forum, don't make people re-type the posts that they've already put a lot of time and thought into please:

I should probably specify that this thread is about Light Hunting as a role, rather than to leave it ambiguous.

I think Light-Hunting as a role by Heavies has driven many people away from Light Mechs, as the Heavies can get to near-Light Speeds (ha) while carrying many times more firepower and armor. This one change will probably make Lights the best Light Hunters...

So how about Mediums as Light Hunters? They will lose some of the edge they had earlier in the game, now. I think only the highest-engined Mediums will be able to serve as Light Hunters while the slower mediums will have to be reserved for weight-matched General Combat. Light Hunting might now be reserved for the Lights...

Edited by Prosperity Park, 03 July 2013 - 09:31 AM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

I really don't see why the development team has such a hard-on for making Heavies better than Mediums at almost everything.
I seem to be the only person who finds it absurd that mechs like the Jagermech and Cataphract are capable of going into mid 80's kph and are not sluggish. At all.

There really is no point in playing a Medium when Heavies are blatantly better.

[xDeityx]

Prosperity Park, on 03 July 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

I should probably specify that this thread is about Light Hunting as a role, rather than to leave it ambiguous.

I think Light-Hunting as a role by Heavies has driven many people away from Light Mechs, as the Heavies can get to near-Light Speeds (ha) while carrying many times more firepower and armor. This one change will probably make Lights the best Light Hunters...

So how about Mediums as Light Hunters? They will lose some of the edge they had earlier in the game, now. I think only the highest-engined Mediums will be able to serve as Light Hunters while the slower mediums will have to be reserved for weight-matched General Combat. Light Hunting might now be reserved for the Lights...

Is Light Hunter even a viable role in the current metagame? When you can 1-2 shot most lights in one of your team's 4+ PPC boats, what is the point of bringing a medium (or light) dedicated to hunting them? The biggest threat the light can make is a base-cap, and you don't need dedicated light hunters to deal with that.

I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Fix weapon balance so that we have viable brawlers and then we can talk about expanding role warfare to include tertiary roles like light hunting.

I think you're right that mediums' ability to hunt lights was nerfed a bit and that lights are now the premier light-hunters...but this is a bit like asking who is the best bench-warmer on a basketball team. Who cares about the bench, focus on the starters.

[Obadiah333]

I'd love to help you out, but I haven't played a light since they added that stupid jump jet shake in to fix poptarting highlanders. Probably won't be playing a light (or any other mech for that matter) until they adjust it.

[Mudhutwarrior]

The real problem is that it has become another exploit for pug stompers. I watched the fastest match I have ever seen on caustic not a few hours after the patch. Less than 90 seconds 8 mechs a smoking pile trying to climb the slope. I think thats the main reason you have so many founders and exploiters pleased with it.

All of these problems would be easily overcome for new and limited players if they would stop letting teams fight solos or give solos a chance to decide if they want to be stomped or have a fair shot in a game. Any team using voip has a complete and total advantage over solos stuck in typed chat with seven other unkown quantitys alonside.

If PGI thinks for a second we will stop and do f9 to help them out they can pack sand. Help us out and we will return the favor. As long as we are driving while black in the PGI police state its not going to happen. Give us ingame voice or team or no team options or go after the most agregious pug stompers/exploit warriors. You all make a big deal about clans and ****** bouning on you dashboards but think nothing of honor. How honorable is it to have total advantage and domination over others like prey?

[Felicitatem Parco]

Okay, this isn't a thread about JJ shake, PPC Stalkers, or Solo vs Premades; it's about how the movement code has impacted the tactic of "Light Hunting."

I think everybody who's serious about this game knows that weight limitations will have an effect on team loadouts when they launch the main game, it's not like there's gonna be a 1200 ton limit for a 12-man team for every match. You'll have to split your forces up and make choices like "two Hunchbacks, or 1 Cataphract and a Spider?" You'll have "tiny" lights that can out-run "small" Lights with the new code, and Medium Mechs that will be out-paced by all the Lights over rolling terrain. Light Hunting that takes place over flat ground will be relatively free form impact of this movement code.

Light Hunting might now evolve into a quest to draw Lights into flat territory where the movement code has no effect...

[xDeityx]

Prosperity Park, on 03 July 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

Okay, this isn't a thread about JJ shake, PPC Stalkers, or Solo vs Premades; it's about how the movement code has impacted the tactic of "Light Hunting."

I think everybody who's serious about this game knows that weight limitations will have an effect on team loadouts when they launch the main game, it's not like there's gonna be a 1200 ton limit for a 12-man team for every match. You'll have to split your forces up and make choices like "two Hunchbacks, or 1 Cataphract and a Spider?" You'll have "tiny" lights that can out-run "small" Lights with the new code, and Medium Mechs that will be out-paced by all the Lights over rolling terrain. Light Hunting that takes place over flat ground will be relatively free form impact of this movement code.

Light Hunting might now evolve into a quest to draw Lights into flat territory where the movement code has no effect...

You are seeing people going on tangents from your desired topic because 1) you weren't at all clear that that's what you wanted to discuss in your OP which is what people are responding to and 2) nobody cares about an irrelevant role, they'd rather discuss things that matter.

The tactic of "Light Hunting" doesn't exist at higher levels where people are rolling around en masse in PPC boats that can 1-shot Lights. See my previous post in this thread for details.

I would suggest starting a new thread and being clear about your intentions regarding the topic.

Edit: The role of "light-hunter" is currently best filled by the PPC boats that are littering the battlefield. Nothing in this patched changed the reasons why they are best at this tertiary role.

Edited by xDeityx, 03 July 2013 - 10:21 AM.

[WhupAzz]

What's this light hunting you speak off? I just hit them with my PPC's and they fall over dead.

I don't even carry more than 10 back armor per section because lights are mostly a myth and seismic is awesome lol.

[Monky]

As far as turning mediums into light hunters the main advantages they will need are bigger engine sizes and wider torso twisting. Lights are great at getting behind people, and a light hunter will need to reduce those advantages through speed and the ability to keep front armor/weapons facing the enemy.

If we're going to talk solely about movement changes, then all mediums will need to be in the 'small' category in order to have rough parity with lights. Engine changes and torso twist angle are far more vital in my opinion as actually being able to keep up with and track your target is a greater boon, terrain is an intermittent factor.

Edited by Monky, 03 July 2013 - 10:25 AM.

[Unbound Inferno]

Prosperity Park, on 03 July 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

That's kind of how they planned it. Here's a snippit from the base thread:


Would bumping all the Medium Mechs to the small bracket be a good thing? I think the Tiny bracket and the Small brackets should be reserved for the Lights and the 40-tonners, because they do need some kind of differentiation between the smaller and bigger Light Mechs (15-tons is a HUGE difference in weight if you're talking about 20 vs 35 tons). if you dump the medium Mechs into the small bracket, then the heavier Light Mechs are no longer "more mobile" from the Movement Code perspective than Medium Mechs...

If you'd want, I'd say adjusted how the weights of the mechs lay to help determine where they should be mainly, then maybe adjust according to maybe how certain mechs should behave by design. Tiny Lights, Small Medium, Medium Heavy, Large Heavy-Assault and Huge Assault. Then shift some mechs that do perform better or worse for mobility accordingly.


Personally I'd list it as;

(minimal) Tiny: Jenner, Commando, Spider, Raven
SlowdownAngle: 40°

(noticeable) Small: Cicada, Centurion, Dragon, Trebuchet
SlowdownAngle: 35°

(manageable) Medium: Blackjack, Cataphract, Hunchback, Catapult
SlowdownAngle: 30°

(hinders) Large: Quickdraw, JagerMech, Awesome
SlowdownAngle: 25°

(very bad) Huge: Stalker, Atlas, Highlander, Victor
SlowdownAngle: 20°


Some more fidgeting on it I would think, to differentiate certain chassis as being more mobile than their counterparts like they should - or less so.

Two however are more of a personal beef against it - and the Catapult should outperform the Stalker on mobility. The entire point of the Catapult line is both speed, JJ and general mobility advantage as opposed to a larger Stalker, right? So no point that larger mech can do as well as it can.

The beef parts are the Jaggers can't be as mobile as Quickdraws, but I don't see that as good as the other mediums in mobility - speed they have, just not that stability for hills. Because of the set brackets, I can't say tweak each a few degrees here and there for certain mechs.

The other is the Stalker. I cannot see that thing more agile than most other Assaults. Its the Awesome as a quirk to compensate for the ridiculous size is that it can run hills faster.

[YueFei]

Heavies don't really hunt lights, they splat them when given the opportunity. Of which the Seismic Module is guilty of making easier to do so, by making it so heavies are aware of when a light is drawing near and laying their guns in anticipation.

This new movement code doesn't change that, it just makes it easier for heavies and assaults to splat light mechs when the light mech accidentally gets stuck on some stupid piece of terrain.

If you want light mechs to evade better, increase TTK by dealing with massive alpha strikes, and introduce heat penalties that make mechs run a bit slower when they get hotter. That way, a pursuer firing their weapons will heat up, and eventually slow down, giving more of a chance for the runner to escape.

Hell, introducing that kind of heat penalty will make light mech vs light mech more interesting, since that will give a chance of a slower light mech to escape a faster one, since the faster one will slow down as it fires its weaponry.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I don't foresee teams of PPC Stalkers wining many fast-paced asymetrical conquest maps in the future... so why are people obsessed with "Hunting Lights" with Stalkers?

How is a PPC-Stalker supposed to follow a Light Mech, or prevent a capture point across the map from being captured? What makes everyone think that "High-Alpha Meta" will be the answer to everything months from now, in all game modes, with weight restrictions? Please think ahead a bit.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 03 July 2013 - 10:42 AM.

[Tezcatli]

xDeityx, on 03 July 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

You are seeing people going on tangents from your desired topic because 1) you weren't at all clear that that's what you wanted to discuss in your OP which is what people are responding to and 2) nobody cares about an irrelevant role, they'd rather discuss things that matter.

The tactic of "Light Hunting" doesn't exist at higher levels where people are rolling around en masse in PPC boats that can 1-shot Lights. See my previous post in this thread for details.

I would suggest starting a new thread and being clear about your intentions regarding the topic.

Edit: The role of "light-hunter" is currently best filled by the PPC boats that are littering the battlefield. Nothing in this patched changed the reasons why they are best at this tertiary role.

You have it backwards. Those of you that don't want to stick to the topic of the thread can start your own threads. Instead of acting like petulant children when you're told to stay on topic.