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Fire Control - "proper" Chain Fire For Mwo / Tag Toggle / Jump Jet Spam [Fc 3.0.7 - 30Th Jan 2017]


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#161 evilC

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 09:43 PM

Uploaded a new beta version (Same link as above).

I had indeed introduced a regression bug. I think this should be fixed now.

#162 Gladewolf

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 06:28 AM

View PostevilC, on 06 January 2014 - 09:34 PM, said:

I just thought I would reply to this statement.
I know where you are coming from, but let us take a step back here...

How many +1s and thankyous do I have from people who are clearly the target demographic for MWO? Lots.

The Devs have OKed Fire Control.
Many Founders have said they love my work.
Fire Control was used 1,967 times in Dec 2013. Do you honestly think there are that many cheaters in MWO?

If you are cordial, then I am quite happy to discuss this subject and potentially remove features if you persuade me otherwise.

If all you are doing is slinging around insults, then I will respond in kind.

I am not calling you a cheater or insulting you. This sort of modification is allowed in almost every game out there these days.....there are whole websites devoted to them (like curse) I guess in this regard I'm just old..as I prefer to leave games as they come. I do however, take issue to comparing someone using an assist to not jam their weapons..... for instance, to someone that has taken the time to learn how to jump snipe. I am happy that you are helping people, because it sounds like you are doing it for the right reasons.......but make no mistake, you are helping them. Shields still at 100pct? Yeah I know, just wanted to clear that up. Hopefully i'm not making it worse.

#163 Gladewolf

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 09:25 AM

View PostevilC, on 06 January 2014 - 09:34 PM, said:

Fire Control was used 1,967 times in Dec 2013. Do you honestly think there are that many cheaters in MWO?

If you are cordial, then I am quite happy to discuss this subject and potentially remove features if you persuade me otherwise.

I looked again and found this bit interesting..do you also have stats on how Fire Control is used?

#164 evilC

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 03:53 PM

Yes, but the point is that UACs are meant to be a weapon where you *choose* to do the double shot, not where it is the default fire mode.
Seeing as now, there is absolutely no advantage to a UAC5 in single shot mode (exactly the same RoF as an AC5), I fail to see the problem.
Also, jump-sniping is stupidly easy. There is no way a sustained fire build can compete with a jump snipe build and that is just wrong. The whole game is dominated by the jump-snipe meta (Especially at higher elos or in comp drops) as everything else does not even compare.
In reality, sustained fire builds (eg 3xAC2 firing 6 shots a second) should be the counter to jump snipers (cockpit shake as well as dmg), but PGI nerfed those to hell when they introduced fixes that were meant to hinder the jump snipers (Ghost heat).

View PostGladewolf, on 07 January 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

I looked again and found this bit interesting..do you also have stats on how Fire Control is used?

Because of the auto-update feature, whenever someone runs FC, it hits my website to find out what the latest version is.
I can see how many times that file was hit, ergo I know how many times FC was run.

Edited by evilC, 07 January 2014 - 04:14 PM.


#165 evilC

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 04:46 PM

View PostGladewolf, on 07 January 2014 - 06:28 AM, said:

I am not calling you a cheater or insulting you. This sort of modification is allowed in almost every game out there these days.....there are whole websites devoted to them (like curse) I guess in this regard I'm just old..as I prefer to leave games as they come. I do however, take issue to comparing someone using an assist to not jam their weapons..... for instance, to someone that has taken the time to learn how to jump snipe. I am happy that you are helping people, because it sounds like you are doing it for the right reasons.......but make no mistake, you are helping them. Shields still at 100pct? Yeah I know, just wanted to clear that up. Hopefully i'm not making it worse.

Oh I have no problem with any of your posts, I was remarking on people who just post accusations of hax, or sling around personal insults.
Isn't curse an out and out cheat site?
I see my stuff as "fixes" rather than cheats. I started my career in game development, and a major part of my degree was in HCI (Man-machine interface, usability etc) and so had many "do's and don'ts" of interface and game design drilled into me from a young age. Most of it can be boiled down to one golden rule of gaming though : "Fight the opponent, not the interface". There are obvious exceptions to the rule (eg Guitar Hero, Street Fighter) where the game is the interface, but in a multiplayer FPS, this rule should be very much observed.

PGI breaks just about every rule in the book with regards to their ingame interface:
  • A zoom loop of 3 levels that cycle endlessly, rather than an in/out on the mouse wheel (Fixed with Intelligent Zoom mod).
  • Arm Lock Toggle that isn't really a toggle but a momentary, requiring a dedicated finger in order to use (Fixed with FC).
  • Chain fire groups that do not speed up the more weapons you put in them (Fixed with FC).
  • Chain fire groups that will not fire faster than the rate of 1 weapon, no matter how fast you press the key. If you have 2xAC2, the only way to fire them at 250ms is to use two groups and spam the keys alternately. (Fixed with FC).
  • Limited options for joystick, difficult to set up (Fixed with UJR and / or Pad Throttle).
The fact that I have been reported many times, and each time PGI have OKed my work* says to me they know I am right, but they do not have the time or resources to fix it themselves (Too busy hiring artists to sell us $500 golden mechs).

*Apart from the UAC unjam script, but then shortly after they removed the feature as they agreed it had no place in the game once one of their own employees threw a keyboard across the office in a fit of rage.

#166 Gladewolf

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 05:33 PM

View PostevilC, on 07 January 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

Oh I have no problem with any of your posts, I was remarking on people who just post accusations of hax, or sling around personal insults.
Isn't curse an out and out cheat site?
I see my stuff as "fixes" rather than cheats. I started my career in game development, and a major part of my degree was in HCI (Man-machine interface, usability etc) and so had many "do's and don'ts" of interface and game design drilled into me from a young age. Most of it can be boiled down to one golden rule of gaming though : "Fight the opponent, not the interface". There are obvious exceptions to the rule (eg Guitar Hero, Street Fighter) where the game is the interface, but in a multiplayer FPS, this rule should be very much observed.

PGI breaks just about every rule in the book with regards to their ingame interface:
  • A zoom loop of 3 levels that cycle endlessly, rather than an in/out on the mouse wheel (Fixed with Intelligent Zoom mod).
  • Arm Lock Toggle that isn't really a toggle but a momentary, requiring a dedicated finger in order to use (Fixed with FC).
  • Chain fire groups that do not speed up the more weapons you put in them (Fixed with FC).
  • Chain fire groups that will not fire faster than the rate of 1 weapon, no matter how fast you press the key. If you have 2xAC2, the only way to fire them at 250ms is to use two groups and spam the keys alternately. (Fixed with FC).
  • Limited options for joystick, difficult to set up (Fixed with UJR and / or Pad Throttle).
The fact that I have been reported many times, and each time PGI have OKed my work* says to me they know I am right, but they do not have the time or resources to fix it themselves (Too busy hiring artists to sell us $500 golden mechs).


*Apart from the UAC unjam script, but then shortly after they removed the feature as they agreed it had no place in the game once one of their own employees threw a keyboard across the office in a fit of rage.

If there are actual cheats on Curse I am not aware of them...everything I've seen is sanctioned, that said, I haven't really gone through the site with a fine tooth comb because besides the occasional damage parsing program I just don't use the stuff. Hopefully PGI will buy Fire Control from you and stick it in the game..that to me would be a win win. :lol:

#167 uglydisease

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 06:08 AM

Just noticed that the jump jet spam feature doesn't work with larger values. I'm assuming this is a feature that will be added later? Given that there is a gui field for that value. Such a feature could be usefully in jump sniping, as I have my jumpjets bound to a mouse key making it difficult to fire a weapon group bound to any other mouse key during a jump. (I usually have to reorder my groups in a way I'm less comfortable with so that my sniping weapons are keyboard bound.

#168 evilC

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 06:15 AM

View Postuglydisease, on 08 January 2014 - 06:08 AM, said:

Just noticed that the jump jet spam feature doesn't work with larger values. I'm assuming this is a feature that will be added later? Given that there is a gui field for that value. Such a feature could be usefully in jump sniping, as I have my jumpjets bound to a mouse key making it difficult to fire a weapon group bound to any other mouse key during a jump. (I usually have to reorder my groups in a way I'm less comfortable with so that my sniping weapons are keyboard bound.

Not quite sure what you mean here....
Why would you want to use JJ spam while jump-sniping?
What do you mean by "larger values"? ie what value does not work?

#169 Quizzical Coconut

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 05:36 PM

After trying to write down what would be necessary to get everything to work, it'd be a nightmare of inputs and calculations and I wouldn't blame you if you didn't want to try and make it.

#170 evilC

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 05:49 AM

View PostQuizzical Coconut, on 09 January 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:

After trying to write down what would be necessary to get everything to work, it'd be a nightmare of inputs and calculations and I wouldn't blame you if you didn't want to try and make it.

Did you try the beta version I released? I think it should do what you wanted...

#171 Quizzical Coconut

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 01:58 PM

Regardless of what values I put in, the volley delay is always wrong, though it seems to respond to the fire rate input (for the first round of volleys, and then it does stuff). The macro activates random functions (advanced zoom, full speed, full stop shortly after [keys g,1, and 2) and in general does random ****.

This is what my current macro looks like:

Posted Image


Additionally, I tried it with a fire rate of 2000 and 0, and the original dynstagger syntax:
3,4,5,6,dynstagger(1,1500,1),dynstagger(1,1500,3),dynstagger(1,1000,2),dynstagger(1,1000,4)

But it didn't ever stop with pressing 1,2,g (and probably other unassigned keys). I'm not sure why it'd be pressing g in any case.

#172 evilC

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 04:47 AM

There is no dynstagger command, I just called it stagger. The syntax is:

stagger(<after weapon #>, <duration>)

So the code would be doing crazy {Scrap} as it is typing the word "dynstagger(1,1500)" etc, which is where the "g" is coming from.

I guess you want:
3,4,5,6,stagger(1,1500),stagger(3,1500),stagger(2,1000),stagger(4,1000)

In the future, I suggest testing using notepad.
Duplicate your profile, then on the bindings tab, untick the "Limit to application" box, and bind a non-printable character(eg Scroll Lock) as your "Fire" key.

Go into notepad, hold scroll lock and you should see all the characters it is hitting appear in notepad.

Oh, and I would also recommend avoiding using weapon groups 1 and 2 if possible as strange things may happen if you hit the L or R mouse button.
Probably safer to use groups 3,4,5,6

Edited by evilC, 11 January 2014 - 05:07 AM.


#173 Quizzical Coconut

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 07:26 PM

That got it to stop pressing extra keys. However, the custom stagger still isn't present. Here's the image:

Posted Image

#174 Space Hulkster

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 10:10 PM

This may not be the correct place to ask this, but I have a mech with 2x AC2, it is a new mech so no XPs (no fire bonus). When I go to testing grounds and group fire both AC2 (at default fire rate .52 sec) for 50 shots I end with heat of 30% (NOTE: not having a precise timing device I used shots fired as a measuring stick)

When I use the Fire Control with a delay of 260 (ms), I overheat (100%+ heat) on shot 27. I changed the fire delay to 340ms and hit 100% on shot 26, And at 420ms overheated on shot 28ms.

As I understand it ghost heat on AC2 is with 3 shots. So with 2 AC and a weapon cooldown of .52 (smurfy's) it is logically impossible to for me to be able to fire 3 shots within .5 seconds when the cooldown on each weapons is .52 and I only have 2 of them. Yet if I set a delay value any lower than 520, I incure ghost heat, and If I do set a value of 520, it means I have litterally cut my rate of fire in half and I may as well be using the game-engine chain fire.

NOTE: all test were done with a mech with zero XPs (just aquired) and all training ground test took place on the same training grounds map (forest colony).

Edited by Space Hulkster, 11 January 2014 - 10:12 PM.


#175 Quizzical Coconut

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 01:41 AM

Ghost heat works in strange ways. As it is now:
(1) firing more than 3 at the same time (or within .5 second of each other) will cause ghost heat
(2) if your mech puts out more than 1 burst of ac2 rounds without atleast .5 seconds between each burst, ghost heat will activate. (basically you cant go machine gun mode with ac2's)

Edited by Quizzical Coconut, 12 January 2014 - 01:42 AM.


#176 evilC

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 06:24 AM

Ghost heat is not how many shots were fired within one 500ms window, it is how many shots were fired within 500ms of each other.
In other words, each time you fire an AC2, if you fired the last one within 500ms, you move up the heat penalty scale.
So with AC2s firing at 250ms, there is no way to avoid heat penalty. ie even with 2xAC2s firing in chain fire mode will make you hit ghost heat.

If you want 250ms fire rate without hitting ghost heat, your only option is a Jagermech or Cataphract.
Best way to do it is 3xAC5, 1xAC2 firing AC5,AC2,AC5,AC2...

Edited by evilC, 12 January 2014 - 06:25 AM.


#177 evilC

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 06:33 AM

View PostQuizzical Coconut, on 11 January 2014 - 07:26 PM, said:

That got it to stop pressing extra keys. However, the custom stagger still isn't present. Here's the image:

You appear to be correct, I think only the last stagger is taking effect. Will take a look into it and let you know.

#178 evilC

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 07:32 AM

OK, fixed. That should work with your Fire Sequence now.

New beta up:

http://evilc.com/fil...rectrl_beta.exe

Edited by evilC, 12 January 2014 - 07:34 AM.


#179 Space Hulkster

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 12:40 PM

View PostQuizzical Coconut, on 12 January 2014 - 01:41 AM, said:

Ghost heat works in strange ways. As it is now:
(1) firing more than 3 at the same time (or within .5 second of each other) will cause ghost heat
(2) if your mech puts out more than 1 burst of ac2 rounds without atleast .5 seconds between each burst, ghost heat will activate. (basically you cant go machine gun mode with ac2's)

View PostevilC, on 12 January 2014 - 06:24 AM, said:

Ghost heat is not how many shots were fired within one 500ms window, it is how many shots were fired within 500ms of each other.
In other words, each time you fire an AC2, if you fired the last one within 500ms, you move up the heat penalty scale.
So with AC2s firing at 250ms, there is no way to avoid heat penalty. ie even with 2xAC2s firing in chain fire mode will make you hit ghost heat.

If you want 250ms fire rate without hitting ghost heat, your only option is a Jagermech or Cataphract.
Best way to do it is 3xAC5, 1xAC2 firing AC5,AC2,AC5,AC2...


I understand what you are saying, and it is the reason the Dev's changed the AC2 cooldown time from 500ms to 520. However under no circumstances is it possible to fire more than 2 shots withing 500ms with 2x AC2 (the fact that ghost heat only applys on the 4th shot nonwithanding). (NOTE: actually the fast fire skill puts the rate of fire at 494ms, however I do not have that pilot skill).

If fact timing wise by using chaing fire with the game engire or Fire Control, you are actually retarding your rate of fire. It is (or should be) IMPOSSIBLE to fire faster using any form of chain fire than group fire.

Fire Control chain fire
0ms (shot 1) ------------------------ 520ms (shot 3) ------------------------1040ms (shot 5)
------------------- 260ms (shot 2) ------------------------ 780ms (shot 4) ------------------------ 1300ms (shot 6)

Note that under no circumastances were more than 2 shots fired within 500ms (0.5sec) of each other. And I would like to point out that the ghost heat theshold for AC2 is supposed to be 3. This means that with the AC2, I can fire 3x AC2 group fire for less heat than I can fire 2x AC2 chainfire (under the current test conditions). This should be impossible if the heat and ghost heat mechanics function as advertised.

Furthermore keep in mind the nature of chain fire is to reduce the rate of fire and heat production. Meaning if I group fire 2x AC2 I am firing them faster than chain firing 2x AC2. There is litterally not a senario where you can chain fire faster than group fire, because every weapon after the first is on a delay, meaning after 10 seconds group fire will alwasy fire more total shots.

As I mentioned this is probably not the correct forum to discuss, and I think you have made an amazing application, and I feel this is simply a BUG in MWO. However if I am being obtuse (which happens) please feel free to correct me. No offense meant and none will be taken in any response.

Edited by Space Hulkster, 12 January 2014 - 12:44 PM.


#180 evilC

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 01:39 PM

View PostSpace Hulkster, on 12 January 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

Note that under no circumastances were more than 2 shots fired within 500ms (0.5sec) of each other. And I would like to point out that the ghost heat theshold for AC2 is supposed to be 3. This means that with the AC2, I can fire 3x AC2 group fire for less heat than I can fire 2x AC2 chainfire (under the current test conditions). This should be impossible if the heat and ghost heat mechanics function as advertised.

You are not understanding ghost heat if you make this statement.

It is not how many shots are in one 500ms window, the counter goes up if you fired that kind of weapon in the last 500ms, AND NEVER RESETS UNTIL THERE IS A 500ms GAP!

0ms (shot 1, heat=1) ... 400ms (shot 2, heat=2) ... 800ms (shot 3, heat=3) ... 1200ms (shot 4, heat=4 GHOST HEAT)

Edited by evilC, 12 January 2014 - 01:39 PM.






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