161 replies to this topic

[MaddMaxx]

Villz, on 04 July 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

I spoke to the topic before on balancing weapons to slow damage so brawls can occur.

Your not going to run a 6 pcc staker if u can only fire twice before the entire team is ontop of u and u get brawled to death.

Slowing damage to allow range to be closed and brawling to occur.

But what happens to those who actually like "some ranged" fighting, just not the 50 pt to the face from 8 opposing Mechs all the time?

Trading "one" for the "other" is not a true solution either. It's like the claim that making SRM's 2.5 each is not OP, nor could it ever be. If everyone has a 90pt Alpha from 150m, is that any better than 45pt from long range? Really?

[Mongoose Trueborn]

FactorlanP, on 04 July 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

Tell me again what the solution that you are advocating is?

There can be no balance until they fix hit detection. Who knows what works best when the majority of the time your shots don't count.

[costi]

Fate 6, on 04 July 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

I agree. I'd never actually thought of changing the cursor like that (since PGI doesn't like changing things they already worked hard on), but that's a very good way to fix the issue. It just needs to not hurt mechs that fire on the run (mediums, lights), and I'm not sure how to do that.

Easy: convergence speed and/or the size of the reticule at full speed.

[MaddMaxx]

Villz, on 04 July 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

what are you even saying that your allowed to be heard to say nothing??

If your allowed, then I too am allowed.

[costi]

Villz, on 04 July 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

I spoke to the topic before on balancing weapons to slow damage so brawls can occur.

Your not going to run a 6 pcc staker if u can only fire twice before the entire team is ontop of u and u get brawled to death.

Slowing damage to allow range to be closed and brawling to occur.

But how are you going to make long-range builds viable then? Because the way I see, it you're just asking to switch the meta to ML boats again.

[MaddMaxx]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 04 July 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

There can be no balance until they fix hit detection. Who knows what works best when the majority of the time your shots don't count.

Very difficult to fix a 5 year old laptop and the poor ping it provides over the interweb. You seen any of the Ping times in the average Pug group as of late?

P.S. That is not assuming your gaming machine is an old ****** laptop at all, because you might assume that to be the case, when anyone else with an opinion on a topic is a Troll, save yourself.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 04 July 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[Teralitha]

Villz, on 04 July 2013 - 05:21 AM, said:

A letter in regard to PGI involvement with the competitive community on topic of gameplay, design, and balance.

To any relevant PGI, IGP employee's.

Its obvious that PGI wishes to have community involvement as demonstrated by regular twitter interaction and community streams and events mainly with the NGNG team. However I strongly believe that due to the small size of the active competitive community there is a rather unique opportunity for PGI to grasp onto, In that the small community is for the most part very passionate about the battletech IP and the community seems to be rather more mature and older by average than the usual online game.

I would have total minimal effort to organize a few of the articulate most active and top players from every competitive unit from Steel Jag , KaoS , DV8 , Snow Ravens, Paragon etc etc. To demonstrate in game and over voice com's either skype, TS, Ventrillo, etc. All the issues that seem to be negatively effecting game play from the more casual level right up unto the top teir of competitive gameplay.

I really think this type of interaction as public or private (most likely) would be of 100x the benefit to PGI , IGP , and all relevant investors than the current systems in place.

Many of the competitive units have stopped paying on the back of balance changes being in their opinion too slow for a game in BETA. I believe with such a passionate community would rally behind any and all efforts made by the development team to even hear our idea's and feedback could at least inspire an idea for the betterment of the experience for all players. Which in turn leads to a more active community. And bottom line more profit and turn over for the PGI, IGP team.

Despite some of us displaying frustration on the forum towards whatever at the time is killing us. And going ad hominem out of the anger generated from such a feeling of dissonance with the situation. The community has a lot to offer PGI, IGP if they are prepared to engage the individuals who understand the experience on the deeper levels of the meta and game functionality.

Please do not hesitate to contact me on the comstar NA server (Idling in the AFK subchannel at all times in the DV8 channel if not playing) We could schedule any of this at anytime that was suited to the schedule of the development team. Drop in groups while we chat sometime thank you.



DV8 loves dropping with PGI , IGP

EDIT:
Alternate contact through this forum or via registered game mail is also fine.

All the actual best players have already left town. Having the best of whats left decide the game balance would only make things worse. GL

[Villz]

MaddMaxx, on 04 July 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

If your allowed, then I too am allowed.

I think given the OP i'v had plenty to say...

Teralitha, on 04 July 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

All the actual best players have already left town. Having the best of whats left decide the game balance would only make things worse. GL

Yes those "best" pre ELO with new talent coming in ontop.
Whatever helps you sleep at night i guess.

Basketball: MJ has left town
Lebron is the best of whats left no name ******* better than the scraps


>.>


Flawless logic

[Soy]

I read this entire thread.

And my sole reaction is: why the **** does Villz get 8 pages out of this thread with only a screen shot, and I post a ******* thread with a huge video showcasing competitive **** with competitive build and ask "is this what we want out of the game?" and nobody even gives any real answers, either.

At least neither of these threads got any real solutions out of them so we're even, Villz. But ******* hell, 8 pages? **** you man. I need to come more compelling on next thread.

Also, hilarious how like basically every single competitive player in this thread knows whats up, and the rest is forumwarriors going "but... but... but... neener, neener, neener!" *stick out tongue*

[PEEFsmash]

Is it a legitimate technique to troll whatever post I don't like, and get it sent to Ktown? Is this a sanctioned method of objecting to OPs?

[ICEFANG13]

Why do people think that competitive players don't know about game balance?

Is Villz competitive?
Yes, I know this, I've ran with him, he is very good, one of the best, but that does not matter, its not him, he said that he wants some of the top teams to talk to PGI.

Are the teams he named competitive?
Of course they are, not only facing and running with some, they also were in the RHOD, and that's as competitive as it gets around here.

Do competitive players know game balance best?
Ideally the devs would, but they use things like K2 with single heatsinks, think singles are good, or before MG buff, MGs were good. Based off the last year, they have no idea almost at all. They miss so much more and by much more than they hit, that I would suspect they are spray and pray with the balance.

So competitive players do know?
Yes, yes they do. All competitive players, no matter how good, have to run at least a great set up or better (unless there was limits of some sort). They know whats what, they know how the best builds work and why they are the best.

Will that make the game perfectly balanced?
No, it would not. Lets say that at the top level, everything was perfectly balanced, but some weapons are just easier to pick up and learn and dominate the game at a lower level.

What to do about that?
There are 3 things.
1 Adjust the problem in a way that does not affect the competitive game, otherwise you risk #2
2 Adjust the problem without caring how it affects competitive play. This is a very bad thing. Its clear that weapons when balanced like these tend to destroy the weapon ecosystem that is created by competitive players. This has a compounding effect that can lead to more things being out of balance.
3 Choose competitive player or casual play. This is similar, but in the end, its unlikely true 100% balance will be achieved for both. If you choose casual, you will have players who over time will learn that what was a problem is not really a problem, and as those new players get older, they learn what is good, making the end game (great players vs great players) very boring, as it is right now. Although this will help players staying at first, people will get bored of it, and will NOT maintain a competitive scene, as PGI themselves said they want. If you cater to the competitive players, there will be new players who concede playing, because something is unbalanced at a basic level of play. Once players overcome that and adapt, there are no more problems.

I'm sorry I just don't see the advantages of catering to the casual balance crowd. PGI said they want an Esports, competitive game, and that's where balance will be most important for it.

[Rippthrough]

Olivia Maybach, on 04 July 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

I'm not saying it's NOT relevant. I'm saying it's no MORE relevant. How many threads have we seen started on the subject of "I missed when I was sure I hit" and the like?

The message is being SENT loud and clear by pilots at all skill levels. It isn't just the "competitive" ones that notice these issues or even post about them.

I understand what OP is asking... but that can easily be accomplished by recording video, narrating and sending it to PGI. You don't even have to rack up a high ELO or join a "competitive" outfit to do that. This isn't rocket surgery. I personally don't think it's a matter of PGI not knowing... I think it's just a matter of resources and priorities at this point, as that makes the most sense, to me at least.

Yes, it could be done by anybody, however the cheese should be more effective in the hands of the top pilots, no?

The main point isn't that however, the main thing is all those teams are co-ordinated, contactable through TS, and available for scheduling with set mechs/loadouts to illustrate a point, which tends to be more effective that just dropping into random games, even if the players in the team/clan are terrible that co-ordination and availability is worth a lot.

Edited by Rippthrough, 04 July 2013 - 12:55 PM.

[Rippthrough]

PEEFsmash, on 04 July 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Is it a legitimate technique to troll whatever post I don't like, and get it sent to Ktown? Is this a sanctioned method of objecting to OPs?

Great eh? I'm wondering if we all start trolling dev announcement posts, will those get stuck in here too?

[Z0MBIE Y0SHI]

Rippthrough, on 04 July 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

Great eh? I'm wondering if we all start trolling dev announcement posts, will those get stuck in here too?

This theory needs tested.


....someone else do it though, I've already been banned once

[Rippthrough]

I'd ban you too if I could.

[Teralitha]

ICEFANG13, on 04 July 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

Will that make the game perfectly balanced?
No, it would not. Lets say that at the top level, everything was perfectly balanced, but some weapons are just easier to pick up and learn and dominate the game at a lower level.

Remove levels. No top, no bottom. Everything equal. Only skill decides. Not upgrades.

[ICEFANG13]

That's what I mean by level, there are players at the top level, and players at the bottom. Upgrades are poorly designed overall but could work still.

[Chavette]

PEEFsmash, on 04 July 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Is it a legitimate technique to troll whatever post I don't like, and get it sent to Ktown? Is this a sanctioned method of objecting to OPs?

I'm trying to find out their opinion on this here.

http://mwomercs.com/...ack-moderation/

Seems like no one cares about all out trolling, as long as someones mother isn't involved. Only one being punished is the thread creator, with his thread going to k-town after being spammed to ****.

[B0oN]

FactorlanP, on 04 July 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

I love how the "competitive" set always seems to think that their opinions are more valuable.

Sometimes, I wish that PGI would ignore the "competitive" know-it-alls enough that they all move on to other games, then PGI can focus on making the game fun for all of us dirty casual players.

Then why the hell did, for an example, Valve bother with the nuisance and invite several international Clans to come and look at CS:GO and give it its final balancing touches ?
Because they like them so much ? Dont really think so, gents.

It´s because of plain, old insight and tons o´ XP under their belts.

Plus when and if CS:GO replaces CS1.6 in the worldwide tournament circuits, them dollars be comin´ back at them Valvians, I think thats called return investment, aye ?

So, maybe PGI should give balancing the meta for one week to the steadily in official PGI tourneys top ranking, well-playing people that know the ins and outs of the game like their own pants and the next week they try the same fun with total new people that are still using their cadet-boni.

Hells, that would make for interesting testing weeks as far as I am concerned^^

Edited by Rad Hanzo, 06 July 2013 - 06:57 AM.

[TLBFestus]

Chavette, on 04 July 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

They are here because PGI specifically stated they are interested in making MWO an e-sport. You don't see farmville forums blowing up because it doesn't support competitiveness, it never was the plan. It was the plan here.

Even an E-Sport needs a large and enthusiastic player base to function. Do you seriously think that and E-Sport would work without fans? In other words, if there isn't a large, "average" base of players, no one would bother watching. So your argument that seems to be "They need competitive players input" because it's going to be an E-Sport is simply putting the cart before the horse.

Chavette, on 04 July 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

That is true, things like bad hit registration, invisible walls, bad terrain hitboxes etc interest them more than being shot with long ranged weapons because of not getting in cover. Just because they don't complain about a long range meta alot, doesn't mean they agree with it, and just because you could care less if every 10th shot registers doesn't mean you wouldn't benefit from it being fixed.
In short, the goal is common, a better game.

I don't know what to make of this. You seem to be saying that competitive players are the only ones that can notice and report bugs, or that somehow they are better at it. I think you should be saying that "In short the common goal is a better game". I'd agree with that. The overall "tone" of your post makes me feel uncomfortable agreeing with you though.

Chavette, on 04 July 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

Who said that? Making stuff up so you can disagree with something much?

I'm pretty sure that I said that, or did you have trouble figuring that out and wanted confirmation? I wasn't so much disagreeing as stating an opinion. You sound like you have anger management issues.

Chavette, on 04 July 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

Thats true, so why are you trolling here, so part of the ENTIRE SPECTRUM can't communicate their needs/thoughts in peace? Next batch of trolls? Fate6 you need something better against me, come on.

I believe I simply posted an opinion, and as a matter of fact made an effort NOT be be a troll or try to insult people while I did it. You on the other hand, just "raged" rather than conversed. Saying I'm trolling doesn't make me a troll. But you do absolutely fit the profile of the type who denigrates anyone who makes a comment that they don't agree with. Most people without an axe to grind will appreciate your example.

Edited by TLBFestus, 07 July 2013 - 04:48 PM.