56 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

TI;DR
Too Illegible; Didn't Read

If you could do the basic courtesy of putting paragraphs to express different thoughts, I would attempt to read it.

Alas, "block of text" is frowned upon and mocked in forums. I suggest you take this seriously.

[CravenMadness]

You know, there'd be less 'block texts' if this forum had simple editing features inside the 'reply to this topic' text block when replying. Instead, new posters are mocked and 'called out' for not understanding the non-intuitive 'editing' process. Hitting enter doesn't work to break up paragraphs like every-other typing medium even text messaging.

This thread is the first time I've even seen mention of the 'little light switch' icon. Generally I just keep my posts short after the first time I posted and was thrown off by the lack of fluid editing while typing.

Other than that, nothing constructive to add besides to comment that in an eight man... The lights either stay with the rolling death ball, or the most 'scouting' they can do is running from cover to another cover spamming 'R' to blink targets to the rest of the team and show a general direction for them to go.

[zraven7]

Wow, first of all, walls of text like that actually hurt a lot of peoples' eyes. Use enter once in a while.

Second, scouting doesn't mean "Narc and Tag". Yes, those can help, but many times aren't needed at all.

Ok, first of all, if you're trying to scout in PUG matches, there's your problem. It simply doesn't work there, because there is no efficient way to communicate with the team. Get on Voice Chat with some people.

Now, once your on voice chat, Scouting is an amazing tool. I'd HIGHLY recommend an ECM light mech for a scout, but it's not absolutely needed. I run an ECM Spider. Now, on voice chat, you can run off and find a good vantage point, and observe enemy movements. This is what scouts are made for. If your team knows the entire enemy team has dedicated themselves to going Cave on Forest Colony, the match is just about over. If, on Tourmaline Desert, they know the 2 mechs near Theta are by themselves, and the rest of the force is a good distance away, that's 2 dead mechs. You can alert them that they are about to walk into an enemy pincer before they do, and turn it into an ambush.

This is what a scout should be doing. You aren't simply a secondary missile lock-on. You are the recon.

Edited by zraven7, 05 July 2013 - 04:44 AM.

[Thedrelle]

CravenMadness, on 05 July 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

You know, there'd be less 'block texts' if this forum had simple editing features inside the 'reply to this topic' text block when replying. Instead, new posters are mocked and 'called out' for not understanding the non-intuitive 'editing' process. Hitting enter doesn't work to break up paragraphs like every-other typing medium even text messaging.

This thread is the first time I've even seen mention of the 'little light switch' icon. Generally I just keep my posts short after the first time I posted and was thrown off by the lack of fluid editing while typing.

Other than that, nothing constructive to add besides to comment that in an eight man... The lights either stay with the rolling death ball, or the most 'scouting' they can do is running from cover to another cover spamming 'R' to blink targets to the rest of the team and show a general direction for them to go.

What are you talking about? I can make perfectly fluid posts AND edit them without even looking at the bar above.

I can make paragraphs by hitting the enter key twice. I can add proper punctuation, and avoid run on sentences by using these fancy punctuation keys on my keyboard.

Don't justify your lack (or rather, another persons lack) of grammar skills by blaming the makers of this forum.

As for the point of this post, which I can only gather by reading the comments, I concur with everyone who says that there is a lack of recon in this game. There is, sadly, a lack of incentive to do so. Most people want to fight, even in a light, so it is tough to get them to play a different sort of game, one where direct engagement is avoided.

Ultimately, better scouting incentives need to be offered, and not just changing the narc and tag behavior.

*edited for bad spelling <- I don't admit to being a good speller!

Edited by Thedrelle, 05 July 2013 - 05:04 AM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Using posters grammar or writing style is a tactic used to defuse the original idea. Used in politics and Edward Bernays style propaganda campaigns. Once you understand why people employ such tactics its best to ignore them, stay on point and keep it rolling. If I understand what you wrote I care not how the idea came across. Most often those with limited classical education have more open minds and iinovative thoughts. It is how power, any power maintains its edge by gate keeping. Its why today a college educated person could not pass an eigth grade exam in the 1860's. Though they sound smart instead they are crippled by structure and that is how societys collapse throughout the ages. Think of how in germany the academic class gained a foothold and dominance in the 1910-20's and what it led too. Same for the rise of the Soviets. Using class against class. Just like today.

[Crystal Maiden]

Scouting is dead because there is no reason to scout. The maps aren't big enough to warrant scouting, the rewards for scouting are piddling, and worst the enjoyment of a dedicated scout is a nil area. If randomized spawns or variably sized maps were viable then scouting would return. But the be all and end all "tactic" is blob and focus fire. IF you are the poor ******* that packs a NARC/TAG with +sensor range guess what? You get jack all for rewards to your heavy self nerfing. And even if you did get rewarded guess wat doesn't matter everyone know where the other teams spawns no matter what and chances are they are going to the same places every. single. time.

You want scouting back great. Me too. I love setting up LRM boats to rain pain fo days. But its not as rewarding as charging in and getting my 400+ damage. hell most of the time i don't have a clue what my teammates are even packing. Boy do i wish there was a way to see what my teammates have loaded out. So i could base a strat off of that....


*self edit*

Why can I see what my enemies have loaded but not my allies? Is there a fluff back up? In Warhammer 40k I can see what my allies have loaded out. Even in Armageddon games. but here that stuff is a mystery I mean i've called in an Earthshaker barrage 3 tables over. But this game I have no clue if that stalker has PPC, or LL or AC/2 I mean really. It's outrageous.

Edited by Crystal Maiden, 05 July 2013 - 06:34 AM.

[Devil Fox]

Why do I need a scout in this day and age... every mech I run will ALWAYS have Adv. Sensor Range (might also get BAP) but that let's me get target locks to 1000m, then Adv. Seismic so if I don't see you within those first 600m I got you flanking/hiding by your movement.

At the present moment the high alpha meta just devastates light's, information warfare and roles is a complete joke, and it's all because of the LRM/PPC meta that PGI have fostered! Hell I've even had PGI in Awesomes using LRM/PPC Boats in a game or two...

By the way I have scouted before... but even other light's are stupid enough to set up next to me (who had a perfect hidden vantage for LRM rain) to begin using a PPC to give away my location. To be blunt, it's not worth scouting when half the team are usually simply minded fools who wouldn't use that information to flank, or press, or actually stay weapon silenced... no reward for it.

[Calos112]

BTW, the reason he didn't use the "enter" key in his wall post is because it won't work by default. It took me awhile to figure it out too.

Its at the top left of the text box, called

Toggle editing mode,

So in his defense, I prolly posted 10 times before I got pissed enough to figure it out.

Nothing but text will work on my posts, not even enter twice, unless I toggle that box.

Edited by Calos112, 05 July 2013 - 06:46 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Steel your Life, on 04 July 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

if your a child that cant read don't post

They are being total arses but that doesn't change the fact your post is hard to read due to not being in paragraph format.


Every match currently involves scouting.

What recon elements are suppose to do is roam ahead of the main body and find the enemy. They are typically not to engage the enemy unless it is to harrass or slow them down so that the main body can get into position to engage the enemy in the best possible maner. Typically they spot the enemy and retreat. This happen each and every match. The quicker mechs always roam forward and usually are the first to spot the enemy. Then if all goes well, they retreat back to the group (lots of people seem fail at this retreating back part however though I am not sure why they think they can take 8 enemy mech solo).

The TAG and NARC gameplay isn't scouting. It's forward spotting. In the military is called a forward observer. However for this to function, the observer has to have dedicated indirect fire and lots of cordination something that doesn't happen often. When it does though, it is devestating. I was on the recieving end of a TAGing spider backed up by at least 150 lanuchers and it wasn't pretty. Our entire team dissolved in what seemed seconds and I am not even sure we managed to spot anything but the spider that way running around tagging us all methodically, one at a time.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 05 July 2013 - 06:53 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Steel your Life, on 04 July 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

I play a lot of 8 mans and pug matches and im getting a little sick of how scout mechs don't seem to be able to do anything but dance around shooting or capping (just try to shoot and deal damage or cap) there is no real scouting or holding locks for lrm boats.....lemmy explain. In 8 mans I find almost no one is stupid enough to bring non direct fire weapons (lrms) everyone goes heavy mostly and brings ppc, large lasers, AC anything that's direct fire. The reason? ECM just completely destroys LRMS and after that Anti missile systems destroy LRMS even after you break ECM. Now I have been in 8 mans where we try to make LRMS work by bringing tag scouts and a couple of heavy LRM boats to punch through ECM and AMS. But, scouts really cant keep line of sight with the stupid "light-show" that is the TAG. If you play an 8 man you usually play skilled people that know what they are doing and if you get line of sight on any mech with a stupid red light laser from 750m away you have about 3 to 4 seconds before you take gauss rifles and ppc's to the face. Right about now, your probably thinking "well your a scout keep moving" yea thats nice in theory but it doesn't work. Keeping a tag on someone while moving around is hard but its almost pointless when your being shot at by multiple people. Anyway beyond the tag problem not having ECM on your scout means you have no chance to really scout on a group of enemies for your team because they simply look around and pick up a little red box around you and again its PPC and Gauss to the face or a few large lasers. Moving around extends your ability to be exposed to enemy fire yes but its impossible to keep locks. In the end if your playing people that are half way decent they don't miss enough for you to keep line of sight for very long from a distance (mainly because in most maps there is so much junk in the map that you cant even get a good distance line of sight....). The other option is 360 degree target lock which only works when you are really close to them and in this instance you get taken down pretty fast even if your a good pilot dancing around a bunch of mechs, for example the spider is a very good at avoiding people and its main strength is its jump jets but they are stupid cause the longer you jump jet the slower you move. As a spider you go from 150 to 60kph in a matter of seconds as your jump jetting and when you land you take a sharp spike in speed loss. I think tag should have infinite range and I think narc should be more useful, maybe some of the mods like UAV should be able to be re-used after a long cool down. Cause as of right now scouts can cap and just shoot mechs in the back and I think there should be more to it then that. Tag, Narc, and UAV are good ideas that just have not been implemented in a way that makes them desirable over other modules and equipment.

First a question, Are you really on a pre made? Cause if you are in an 8 man you should be able to get your scout to "R" a few times. I know Lawmen work together to get its wins. Pugs... well lights aren't thinking of spotting for others so much.

[Tibs]

Sahoj, on 04 July 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

Improved UAV + Upgraded UAV's is free 300m spotting for 60 seconds or so (I forget). It is the most brutal, effective scouting tool in the game.

It targets every enemy mech it sees.

If you're playing a scout and you don't have this - you're not a scout.

Hell - if you're any mech who runs 90+ kph you need to have a UAV available. Otherwise you're just a dirty kill-stealer who redirects enemy fire to slower friendlies and drops alphas on people.

oh thats the role i been playing ty )

[MustrumRidcully]

Steel your Life, on 04 July 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

if your a child that cant read don't post

Presentation matters. If you want to get heard, try to speak clearly. (And hey, I have actual problems with that in real life, I love to omit syllables and talk too fast.)

Your thread title hints that you have a good topic in mind, and an opinion I might agree on and a reasoning process that I might find interesting and might make me understand the underlying reasons for what you observe better.

But your text is unformatted and I really just don't want to spend time parsing your text, I want to deal with the content itself. Help me focus on the content, please.

[Deathlike]

Mudhutwarrior, on 05 July 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

Using posters grammar or writing style is a tactic used to defuse the original idea. Used in politics and Edward Bernays style propaganda campaigns. Once you understand why people employ such tactics its best to ignore them, stay on point and keep it rolling. If I understand what you wrote I care not how the idea came across. Most often those with limited classical education have more open minds and iinovative thoughts. It is how power, any power maintains its edge by gate keeping. Its why today a college educated person could not pass an eigth grade exam in the 1860's. Though they sound smart instead they are crippled by structure and that is how societys collapse throughout the ages. Think of how in germany the academic class gained a foothold and dominance in the 1910-20's and what it led too. Same for the rise of the Soviets. Using class against class. Just like today.

TBH, the wall of text did hurt my eyes.

I did skim it, and he makes no new arguments that hasn't been covered before in similar threads... there is no "reward" in scouting in terms of bonuses... only doing damage. The knowledge however is invaluable and has no price/value, but often tips battles when the situation is right.

If there were certain elements of randomness (like different drop points/locations), the value of scouting would increase... but we all know where everyone else has relatively spawned, and there are pretty much plenty of pre-defined routes so there's not much to learn when you do basic scouting (outside of potentially getting one shot if you poke your head too high).

[Ngamok]

Wolftrot, on 04 July 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

To be honest dude I didn't read any of your post but if you don't think scouting doesn't work try running a 8 man without a scout. See how that fairs. Point is - don't base any game off pug matches.
0

Every 8 man we go up against will have 1-2 mechs scouting our position for them. We keep for for sure sometimes 2. And you are right, if you don't scout in 8 mans, you'll lose because they can out play you since they have eyes.

[Sephlock]

Maybe once we get stealth armor and such... if we ever do .

[BillyM]

Scout Role? It's called seismic.

...as for mechs, we have mini-brawlers/snipers, not scouts.

[Tarrasque]

Whoah, this thread is ADD as ****.