13 replies to this topic

[jollyrancher1]

There is an older thread in the archive for the last patch notes that is at the very least a good read and is going to explain what I am going to shorten here.
http://mwomercs.com/...-meta-gameplay/

List of ways to curb high pinpoint alpha mechs which I think make the game play boring. aka peek-a-boo style in no particular order:


Option A: Weapon limit Proposed in the first post of the old thread. Firing a large or many large weapons trips a .5 second timer that must be waited before firing another volley. The limit I proposed was 1 ac20 1 gauss 2 ppc 3 LL 6 laser weapons except SL tag and flamers. Using anything under the limit can be used in conjunction with weapons that start the .5 second time. eg. atlas-K 2 erLL 1 gauss and lrm 20, could alpha strike just fine as the gauss would start the .5 second timer, but since 2 LL is under the 3LL limit they can be fired together with no penalty. Lrms are unaffected by the proposal so they will act exactly as they currently do.
Pros:Would eliminate mechs using 40 or 60 damage builds that are 100% pinpoint. Also makes many of the stock mech's load outs make sense. Keeps the option to bring more than the limit with very little penalty, making the "cheese" builds effective still. Makes chain fire's wait of .5 seconds mean something.
Cons:Not very newb friendly as it has many rules. Also this limitation is completely pulled out of thin air for the sake of game play.

Option B: Hard point restrictions
Pros: Would hard limit all mechs so they can only bring the amount of large weapons that the chassis will allow for. Previous mechwarrior games have used it in the past and they were pretty fun.
Cons: The main problem with hard point restrictions is that it is very opinion based and I fear that we will end up with much less variety of mechs on the battlefield.

Option C: Capacitor restrictions
Pros: Works much like option A in that it softly nerfs the alpha strikes of certain builds. Lore friendly.
Cons:Lore ends up not nerfing ac20 jeagers to my knowledge. Stock mechs like the battlemaster might be nerfed as well as it uses many energy weapons.

Option D: Overhaul the heating system
Pros: There are many who have said that this is the thing to do. Here are some that posted in the older thread.

Eric darkstar Marr's proposal based on table top:
http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

Koniving's proposal based on realism:
http://mwomercs.com/...49#entry2521849

Cons: This option is my first choice as well, however it would require alot of work by the devs and change the game completely. I would worry that after a major heat change the game might not be as much fun. There is no way to test it without setting it all up first.

Option E:Change convergence to nerf certain weapons.
Pros:This is very similar to proposal A as well, but instead of stopping people from firing for .5 seconds it would harm the aiming if too many weapons are fired at once.
Cons:My main problem with this is that if it isnt a very harsh aiming impairment then mechs at medium range would be hit by a possible high pinpoint alpha still. It would not really affect ac20 jeagers if it is too lax. In the end it doesnt end up very newb friendly just like option A as it would be a circumstantial effect to firing too many of something at once.

Option F: Overhaul the convergence.
Pros:Weapon boating builds would have a harder time pinpointing specific locations. Can be tweaked to reward lighter mech's convergence speeds.

DocBach's proposal:
http://mwomercs.com/...active-reticle/

Cons: This change would reward the defensive team as they can stand still and wait for the enemy to come to them. Also over watch would become a huge part of the game. Changes the peek-a-boo style gameplay to a full on sniper style game play making it harder to charge a high pinpoint alpha build, but easier to attack one that is moving or flanked.

Edited by jollyrancher1, 08 July 2013 - 07:54 AM.

[HCubCadet1972]

I don't see why they aren't being far more restrictive with the builds they permit. Omnimechs aren't seen until the Clan invasion.

[Eric darkstar Marr]

HCubCadet1972, on 05 July 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

I don't see why they aren't being far more restrictive with the builds they permit. Omnimechs aren't seen until the Clan invasion.

They already limit how we can build our mechs with hardpoint locations. People love to mix it up and it was part of the base game with field variants hot swaps and the such.

Omni mechs had pods that were hot swap however some omnis still had a fixed weapon or four on them where those were perm. so using omni vs mwo doesn't quite work.

I still say some heat modifiers will do wonders for this game overall.

[Haitchpeasauce]

I've been carefully considering this matter, and I think that changing convergence will help. I play everything from Light mechs up to PPC Stalkers.
I also think hardpoint limits are part of the answer, but I want to talk mainly about convergence this time.

Nothing new is said here, but just putting a few ideas together and talking it through:

• Accurate convergence must be increasingly difficult to obtain as range increases.
  
• Better convergence should be obtainable with lower arm actuators.
  
• Fixed arms and torso mounted weapons should have little-to-no convergence.

Some explanation...

Accurate convergence should be harder as distance increases.This is just a geometric and physical fact. Battlemechs might be robot-magic, but let's remember they are a myomer-musculature over a metal skeletal frame. They are heavy, and stomp over rough terrain. The arms and torso are always in motion as the mech walks. Heat, cold, stress, and technical difficulties, all introduce some kind of inaccuracy in the complex parts of a Battlemech.

Therefore convergence needs to reflect this. Accuracy and convergence should be affected while the mech is in motion, torso twisting, and overheating. As a mech settles and lines up a shot, the convergence accuracy can increase. But even with a fully stabilized mech, small discrepancies should exist. Pilot unlocks and modules can improve this.

Arms with lower arm actuators should allow more convergence. This offers a nice advantage to such mechs, as their trade-off is typically lower slung weapons and thus greater exposure to danger.

Torso mounted weapons, and arm mounted weapons without lower actuators, should fire almost in parallel. A small degree of convergence is reasonable but this needs to be limited.

Why is this reasonable? Because torso weapons can't aim up and down beyond how far the torso can angle up and down, so it is inconsistent they can aim laterally to any angle, for the sake of convergence.

Finally, depending on the mech, there should be a minimum convergence range, say 90m for example. Full convergence at point blank range does not make sense, especially for torso weapons.


The effects of the above are:

• A sniper build is forced to remain stationary to produce maximum accuracy.
  
• Snap shots, popping, and pop-tarts, lose pinpoint accuracy for better survivability.
  
• Damage at all ranges is spread over the target more evenly.
  
• High damage alpha strikes aren't able to one/two-shot a mech at extreme range.
  
• To put more damage on a single location, your mech will need to either mount the weapons on the same location, in arms with lower arm actuators, or adjust aim for each fixed weapon location.
  
• Firing weapons in separate groups is encouraged, instead of single alpha strikes.
  
• Concentrating alpha-strike damage will require closing in. This brings brawling and mid-range combat back into the equation as a more viable style.
  
• More lore-friendly.

While brawling still happens today, the issue is that sniper builds remain useful from long range all the way up to mid-range, while brawlers are often critically damaged before making a contribution to the match. With these changes, snipers remain useful at long range, but aren't able to core a mech at 800m with a few shots.

In closing, convergence has a place in MW:O, however at this stage it is an over-exaggerated place. The result of this are high-alpha boats that can pinpoint crit mech in seconds. PGI have doubled armor to help increase game time, however it creates an arms race between boating mechs and armor. Rather than increase armor further, damage values are normalized. Aim and skill will still remain a priority, as it still requires good aim to hit a target, and requires skill to compensate for each weapon location while firing to maintain consistent damage.


Wow, this turned into an essay. Anyway, thanks for reading!

[LastPaladin]

HCubCadet1972, on 05 July 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

I don't see why they aren't being far more restrictive with the builds they permit. Omnimechs aren't seen until the Clan invasion.

Probably because the game is just so limited right now. When you get bored dropping into fights, pretty much all we have left is to play with builds, or cruise the forums. Restrict the builds too much and it would be painfully dull.

Edited by LastPaladin, 05 July 2013 - 02:49 PM.

[CHH Badkarma]

HCubCadet1972, on 05 July 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

I don't see why they aren't being far more restrictive with the builds they permit. Omnimechs aren't seen until the Clan invasion.

I'm sure they will nerf clan tech till its as effective and a rubber lightsaber. Like some other online game (cough)

So does a clan invasion era Warhawk with its primary load out with 4 ER PPCs count as a high alpha build? OMG the huge manatee! lol. Likewise later down the timeline when vintage mechs get revived that carrie multiple gauss rifles ( Thunder Hawk, Pillager, Cerberus and Gunslinger to name a few) there will be an outcry from the masses to nerf and neuter.

I honestly don't know why people complain so much about builds that are built with multiple clusters of the same weapons system. Each one has its own drawbacks (recharge/cycle time, range or lack of) just exploit those failings.

Edited by Jason Radick, 05 July 2013 - 03:22 PM.

[jollyrancher1]

@ Jason Radick Your telling me 40 damage to one location isnt a high alpha build?! How many mechs can take a hit from that and not get blasted wide open. A 40 ton mech has a 40 armor maximum in its left and right ct and most run xl engines. Shooting any 40 ton and below mech in 2 shots to the same place kills them. I think dieing in 2 shots is too quick for nearly half the mechs.

[CHH Badkarma]

If a 40 ton mech is mounting an xl engine and manages to get shot twice in the same spot as you describe then he gets what he deserves. You dont stand still and slug it out. Lights and mediums are not made for that purpose. As I stated, use tactics. I have seen many times mechs with high movement rates take down your so called "high alpha builds". This is mechwarrior online, a game where assault mechs with massive firepower have a place. Not mediocre warrior online, where all mechs get nerfed down to light mech firepower.

I will say that a better match making system would go a long way to making things more balanced. Lets say 2 or 3 city buster type builds on each team would be much more realistic vs 5 or 6 as is often the case. That would help bring the model of role warfare to everyones table.

Edited by Jason Radick, 07 July 2013 - 02:53 PM.

[jollyrancher1]

Jason Radick, on 07 July 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

This is mechwarrior online, a game where assault mechs with massive firepower have a place. Not mediocre warrior online, where all mechs get nerfed down to light mech firepower.

DocBach put it best:

"The largest problem in this game stems from the fact that PGI has kept certain traits and rules from the board game such as the separate location damage models, then added the ability to group several weapons together and shoot them all at one location. These damage models were balanced for a board game in which weapons hit completely random locations; now that where they go can easily be selected we have created an environment that rewards boating the biggest alpha strike as possible as they are superior in nearly every way to other weapon systems.

To fix it PGI needs to make a decision; is this going to be a simulation of the board game, or a first person shooter skinned with the lore?

If the former, they need to relook how they allow alpha strikes to work."
http://mwomercs.com/...active-reticle/

[CHH Badkarma]

That crosshair system is nice. though I shudder to think of how if would turn out if pgi tried to make it work. Perhaps a icon in the hud that you can toggle "roll 1D6". I kidd.convergence overtime with longer reticle dwell over target is a more realistic option considering actuator response time and related issues in tracking.

[jollyrancher1]

I just got done reading the heat scale and general update http://mwomercs.com/...general-update/

I am most surprised that they put large lasers at 2 and i wonder how they are going to approach mechs that use combinations of large lasers and medium lasers. The hunchback 4p can run large lasers instead of mediums to dodge the 6 ml limit http://mwo.smurfy-ne...96b4aae099b79b8

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

I agree...seems large lasers got hit a little too hard...2 large lasers do 18 damage while 6 medium lasers do 30 damage and even cycle faster than large lasers and weigh 4 tons less so you can stuff more heat sinks in your mech to keep them firing longer.

[Mazzyplz]

OP:

so in your system ppc gets 3 penalty but ac40 gets none? LMAO!!!

go back to the drawing board, and spend more than 5 minutes on it please, or else look objectively at stuff

[jollyrancher1]

The one I suggested has a 2 penalty for ac40