268 replies to this topic

[Aaron45]

Purlana, on 07 July 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

#1. PGI 8 man group is bad? #2. Fall in line the PPC meta or die? #3. All of the above!

yep the guy you are quoting seems to be rude and arrogant in his tone

[Disapirro]

This game needs a solo queue where people are not on voice comms, except through the game, and a ‘pro’ queue where organized teams on voice comms can get what they claim to desire, a competitive match.

I believe this will damper some of the balance issues. I think the ppc, or other fotm issues really become a problem when one side or the other has too many running that build and the other side does not. More solo randomization for casual players may lesson this by distributing the ‘good’ builds by randomly assigning them to teams, rather than what is currently happening with the people who know what they are doing and getting a drop in their favor by dropping together with others in like builds

I don't have a problem with the 'pro' players playing the way they like against other 'pro' players with only the ‘best’ weapons and tactics. What I have a problem with, as an exclusively pug playing member of the base, is the pug stomping. Mostly what I hear is, “I am competitive and want to be the best so I use the best weapons and group up because that is how you win.” Great, now do this in the ‘pro’ player queue, and once and for all, you will now know if you are as good as you think you are.

[Purlana]

Disapirro, on 07 July 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

This game needs a solo queue where people are not on voice comms, except through the game, and a ‘pro’ queue where organized teams on voice comms can get what they claim to desire, a competitive match.

I believe this will damper some of the balance issues. I think the ppc, or other fotm issues really become a problem when one side or the other has too many running that build and the other side does not. More solo randomization for casual players may lesson this by distributing the ‘good’ builds by randomly assigning them to teams, rather than what is currently happening with the people who know what they are doing and getting a drop in their favor by dropping together with others in like builds

I don't have a problem with the 'pro' players playing the way they like against other 'pro' players with only the ‘best’ weapons and tactics. What I have a problem with, as an exclusively pug playing member of the base, is the pug stomping. Mostly what I hear is, “I am competitive and want to be the best so I use the best weapons and group up because that is how you win.” Great, now do this in the ‘pro’ player queue, and once and for all, you will now know if you are as good as you think you are.

Both 'solo' players and 'pro' players have adapted to the PPC meta. Every now and then you see people using an odd build but they are the exception.

Edited by Purlana, 07 July 2013 - 11:04 AM.

[xRaeder]

It's sad... but it gives me a measure of satisfaction that I was right about the state of the game a year ago and have predicted these problems every time they make a change. Lead level design position already being filled, there's no hope of myself having a chance of educating the devs about their game.

Honestly PGI is suffering from what I call the numbers game. They have a ton of statistics, and somehow think that those numbers tell them anything useful. They really don't. Mythic Entertainment made the same mistake with Warhammer Online. They trusted the numbers, and didn't pay attention to what players were doing.

So in essence they missed the forest for the trees.

I have long argued for an additional mechanic, called convergence. It would be controlled by the center mouse wheel (or some keyboard key) and control how your weapons converge.

[Aaron45]

xRaeder, on 07 July 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

It's sad... but it gives me a measure of satisfaction that I was right about the state of the game a year ago and have predicted these problems every time they make a change. Lead level design position already being filled, there's no hope of myself having a chance of educating the devs about their game.

Honestly PGI is suffering from what I call the numbers game. They have a ton of statistics, and somehow think that those numbers tell them anything useful. They really don't. Mythic Entertainment made the same mistake with Warhammer Online. They trusted the numbers, and didn't pay attention to what players were doing.

So in essence they missed the forest for the trees.

I have long argued for an additional mechanic, called convergence. It would be controlled by the center mouse wheel (or some keyboard key) and control how your weapons converge.

Yeah convergence would solve this problem 100% iam afraid that devs wont implement it and most players wouldnt like it cuz it would make the game more complicated

Edit: the mouse wheel convergence increase decrease idea is actually very smooth and great. I like it much

Edited by Legolaas, 07 July 2013 - 12:20 PM.

[Kattspya]

You could just slow convergence on all weapons, more for heavy weapons and more for heavy mechs perhaps more for torso mounted weapons. Probably also lower torso twist speed for heavies and assault some. Then all you need to do is increase heat dissipation and lower the heatcap. Then it is time for individual tuning of weapons. Was it four or more months ago that the dev said that overall damage was too high? They have the knowledge but no the ability or will and I would really like to know what the hell they are doing except blaming a week of vacation for three months of sniping.

EDIT: You could also add splash damage to the pin point weapon too bad the coders can't seem to code that. If all else fails just make pin point weapons be slightly damage over time.

Edited by Kattspya, 07 July 2013 - 12:07 PM.

[vkornov]

Legolaas, on 07 July 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

Dude you dont get the point that only ppc´s can core you in one second once you pass a corner to have a look,. thats the annoying and obnixious part. you ll be cored if not dead by 6 ppc within 1 corner moove at the very early of the game. No other weapon combination can do that. 6 large lazer need some secs to do the dmg. PPc doesnt.

Oh I do. But AC40 also can do that. And SRM could do that before the nerfs (because of the splash damage). So, PPC as a concept are fine. Just need balancing. And balancing means more than just upping their heat. Although that would be a quick & easy temporary measure.

[Aaron45]

vkornov, on 07 July 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

Oh I do. But AC40 also can do that. And SRM could do that before the nerfs (because of the splash damage). So, PPC as a concept are fine. Just need balancing. And balancing means more than just upping their heat. Although that would be a quick & easy temporary measure.

Dual Ac20´s mechs need to charge in or wait. Same with srms. Ppc is great at distance and over 90 meters.

Edited by Legolaas, 07 July 2013 - 12:50 PM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Homeless Bill, on 06 July 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

Ahaha! Is this a serious request to insulate the developers from the reality of the game? Cheese is what I see every match. Even if it's only a single PPC Stalker, that ****** inevitably has a massive impact on the battle. They should be forced to drop against people that run cheese on a weekly basis.

I don't understand how anyone expects them to be able to balance a game they're not intimately familiar with. And the more time goes on, the more I see that they're clearly not.

This was skipped over by alot of people, yet is highly accurate, if the dev team don't understand their own game, and by extension the mechanics...it's dead jim.

Legolaas, on 07 July 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

Even large lazer ac5 ac10 and so on? Rofl

Yes, Laser's are inferior because of the DoT component, AC5 is fairly junk, AC 10 has a nice sound but has no real placement and is in limbo land for an actual role.
SRM's were nerfed and have not been restored.
The fact you think the LBX 10 is in a good place..is well....telling.

So yes currently in a competitive sense, brawling weapons are in a terrible spot.

TL:DR of this thread ...

I don't understand people who play to win.

I don't understand people who don't play to win.

Edited by DV McKenna, 07 July 2013 - 01:38 PM.

[Roland]

Quote

This was skipped over by alot of people, yet is highly accurate, if the dev team don't understand their own game, and by extension the mechanics...it's dead jim.

Yes.

I don't expect them to be professional gamers, or even really that competitive. But they need to at least UNDERSTAND the game.

[Sephlock]

This isn't exactly related, but I was just wondering:

Why is it that in FPS games, whenever they do a demo (like, at a trade show), the guy playing is always *TERRIBLE*.

I mean freaking AWFUL.

Like "letting mom pick up the controller" awful.

No, like "letting GRANDMA pick up the controller" awful.

I get that they want to look around a lot and stuff to show things off, but come on...

Edited by Sephlock, 07 July 2013 - 02:22 PM.

[Aaron45]

Roland, on 07 July 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Yes.

I don't expect them to be professional gamers, or even really that competitive. But they need to at least UNDERSTAND the game.

actually same here. I dont understand this dev bashing.

[Stoicblitzer]

Legolaas, on 07 July 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

actually same here. I dont understand this dev bashing.

DV McKenna, on 07 July 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

if the dev team don't understand their own game, and by extension the mechanics...it's dead jim.

[Rebas Kradd]

Jabilo, on 06 July 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Normally I would agree with the sentiments of this thread.

However, Paul has already made a post saying that he has been on holiday, that changes have ALREADY been made to remedy the situation and that they simply need to be added to a build and pushed through the QA procedure.

On this basis you could demonstrate some patience and not be quite so harsh.

Given the speed of their usual QA, we have no choice but to demonstrate patience.

[Murzao]

Only thing they need to do to fix PPCs is to put SRMs back to 2.5. Oh and making airstrike/artillery better to hammer and discourage slow turret behaviour....I wanna drop an artillery on the spot a poptart just jumped from and watch it drop on his head before he hits the ground.

Oh the days months ago when I'd get hit by 2-3 PPCs and I'd return fire for a 58 alpha on a 90kph+ Centurion......PPC boats were easy kills. Course I'd have over 1000 damage pretty well every game:)

So anyways in todays games I was 15-1 with a 2AC2/1ERLL YLW.....(6-0 pugging solo)..but in the group games me and my bud who was rocking a quad AC2 Jager made every PPCboat cower in fear it was pretty funny. There are counters to PPC boats but most people are not skilled enough to use them. And no.....'elite player' and 'PPC boat' should never be used in the same sentence.....they are noobs using a crutch nothing more. If you can't punish a noob for being in a slow PPC boat then of course you are going to get smoked.

Way above a 50% win ratio here purely using medium mechs....way above. Medium mechs are the realm of the elite.

Edited by Murzao, 07 July 2013 - 04:33 PM.

[Aaron45]

Murzao, on 07 July 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Only thing they need to do to fix PPCs is to put SRMs back to 2.5. Oh and making airstrike/artillery better to hammer and discourage slow turret behaviour....I wanna drop an artillery on the spot a poptart just jumped from and watch it drop on his head before he hits the ground.

Oh the days months ago when I'd get hit by 2-3 PPCs and I'd return fire for a 58 alpha on a 90kph+ Centurion......PPC boats were easy kills. Course I'd have over 1000 damage pretty well every game:)

So anyways in todays games I was 15-1 with a 2AC2/1ERLL YLW.....(6-0 pugging solo)..but in the group games me and my bud who was rocking a quad AC2 Jager made every PPCboat cower in fear it was pretty funny. There are counters to PPC boats but most people are not skilled enough to use them. And no.....'elite player' and 'PPC boat' should never be used in the same sentence.....they are noobs using a crutch nothing more. If you can't punish a noob for being in a slow PPC boat then of course you are going to get smoked.

Way above a 50% win ratio here purely using medium mechs....way above. Medium mechs are the realm of the elite.

So true Mediums are under estimated.

xRaeder, on 07 July 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

It's sad... but it gives me a measure of satisfaction that I was right about the state of the game a year ago and have predicted these problems every time they make a change. Lead level design position already being filled, there's no hope of myself having a chance of educating the devs about their game.

Honestly PGI is suffering from what I call the numbers game. They have a ton of statistics, and somehow think that those numbers tell them anything useful. They really don't. Mythic Entertainment made the same mistake with Warhammer Online. They trusted the numbers, and didn't pay attention to what players were doing.

So in essence they missed the forest for the trees.

I have long argued for an additional mechanic, called convergence. It would be controlled by the center mouse wheel (or some keyboard key) and control how your weapons converge.

The more i think about ya idea the greater it sounds. Go ahead and suggest it with ya own thread. It deserves an own thread

[Roland]

xRaeder, on 07 July 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

Honestly PGI is suffering from what I call the numbers game. They have a ton of statistics, and somehow think that those numbers tell them anything useful. They really don't. Mythic Entertainment made the same mistake with Warhammer Online. They trusted the numbers, and didn't pay attention to what players were doing.

Well, statistics CAN actually tell you a ton, but they are very easily misunderstood.

It's easy to fail to actually analyze the usage stats correctly, and come to the wrong conclusions.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

Sephlock, on 07 July 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

This isn't exactly related, but I was just wondering:

Why is it that in FPS games, whenever they do a demo (like, at a trade show), the guy playing is always *TERRIBLE*.

I mean freaking AWFUL.

Like "letting mom pick up the controller" awful.

No, like "letting GRANDMA pick up the controller" awful.

I get that they want to look around a lot and stuff to show things off, but come on...

Every Bungie Player I've ever dropped with were complete animals at Halo. I don't know if every one of them was great at the game, but it seemed like they knew the game, and how to play it. Which means that they probably had a good idea of the player experience. We don't exactly get the vibe that is going on here. Is it possible PGI is playing the game "as intended" and arent aware how the meta is deformed into AlphaStrikeWarrior?

[Victor Morson]

ArchMage Sparrowhawk, on 07 July 2013 - 08:51 PM, said:

Is it possible PGI is playing the game "as intended" and arent aware how the meta is deformed into AlphaStrikeWarrior?

That is the entire gist of the problem in my eyes, and what I mean in my "Balancing from a bubble" thread: If they are playing it the way they want it to play, they won't see how it actually plays, and thus misunderstand everything that happens from that point.

I don't expect the devs to have time to master the game. I do, however, hope they open lines to the competitive community to help them balance things in the future.

[Fate 6]

Further, on 06 July 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

Me and my house dropped against them once. It was a roflstomp. 8-0 I've dropped against better pugs.

Maybe a bit harsh. But even in their stream they said they weren't that good and don't play much. Ibdont think devs should or need to be the best. I just want to be confident that they understand the game, fans, and player base well enough when they make design choices.

Sorry, I'm pretty sure devs should at least be decent at their own game. There's a reason Riot Games really values employees that are strong players. It's because they understand the game and know how to balance it, and will also better represent the studio when they are playing for fun (added bonus, but still relevant).

I've yet to see PGI or IGP guys do well.

Victor Morson, on 07 July 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

That is the entire gist of the problem in my eyes, and what I mean in my "Balancing from a bubble" thread: If they are playing it the way they want it to play, they won't see how it actually plays, and thus misunderstand everything that happens from that point.

I don't expect the devs to have time to master the game. I do, however, hope they open lines to the competitive community to help them balance things in the future.

I do expect devs to have time to at least play their own game. Master it? Maybe not. Be unquestionably above-average? I think that's a reasonable expectation.