67 replies to this topic

[Mainhunter]

For what are Assaults for, if you cant equip them with sufficient weapons e.g. boating? Most of the heavys will then out gun them. Most of the battle takes place between short and med distances anyway, all this whining about the ranged weapons, even boating them, makes no sense.

[Victor Morson]

I really hate voting on this because I don't want to see the PPC nerf batted out of existence as a viable weapon. I'd rather focus on buffing the weapons around the PPC.

That said, I believe it could use both a recycle and velocity nerf - ER PPC included.

[Victor Morson]

Mainhunter, on 06 July 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

For what are Assaults for, if you cant equip them with sufficient weapons e.g. boating? Most of the heavys will then out gun them. Most of the battle takes place between short and med distances anyway, all this whining about the ranged weapons, even boating them, makes no sense.

The problem isn't that the range weapons are good at range combat. It's that they are better at short and medium distances than the weapons designed to work at short-medium distances.I

I'd take ER PPC and Gauss over Large Pulse, SRM6, LBX/10, AC/10, etc. any day of the week. I would even take it, without question, over the AC/20. People always complain about twin AC/20 'mechs, but twin Gauss do almost the same damage from across the map and without heat.

This is the problem. It's not that brawling doesn't happen, it's just better to be a sniper in a brawl than a brawler in a brawl.

It'd be like if you made the AWP in Counter-Strike 100% accurate no-scoped, and lowered the price so it'd cost as much as a P90, for a bad analogy. Nobody would use anything else, ever.

[Unbound Inferno]

Jaguar Prime, on 06 July 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

Did you read what I posted? Better question. Did you understand it?

Did you?

Jaguar Prime, on 06 July 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

Swap out a AC20 for a Single PPC. then tell me whats op. If it's so op, your ingame performance should instantly go up by equipping a single one in place of an AC20. Do the same for 2 of em. Instead of running dual Gauss or dual AC20's, Run dual PPC's. Did your performance go up?

Yes. Because I swap the AC20 out for two PPC or ERPPC and depending on ammo space used up a bigger engine or more heat sinks to help those PPC even more.

Jaguar Prime, on 06 July 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

A single ppc is no more dangerous than a single AC20 or single LRM20. Only when boated do they become a game changer.
By extension 2 ppc's are no more dangerous than 2 AC20's or 2 LRM20's. It's when you stack 4 or more together that they start to become the terror that you guys say they are.

This is a problem. Its not a one for one deal, its a two for one with extras. The AC20 is balanced, the PPC is not. The damage seems the same, but there are two issies;

Range - the PPC can hit far further with the same ammount.

Ammo - you never run out of shots.

Adding both by swapping that and the effecincy of the PPC being able to fire almost without concequence leaves it way overpowered. The PPC should generate heat to reduce the frequency of shots as the tradeoff for unlimited ammo and range.

Jaguar Prime, on 06 July 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

I'm comparing weapon to weapon and not the weapon and platform. The platform can and will change as more mechs are added.
The reason people boat ppc's is because it can be boated. You also can note that Large lasers are boated on the same platform. So are other various energy weapons. Currently ppc is the dominate choice, because it has superior range and it's not damage over time like LL. If they made LL instant like PPC's , everyone would switch.

Yes, the problem is it can be boated, but its due to the nature of the game that allows it. That cannot change, its an option - but not when it has no concequences. The PPC is skewered the wrong way and isn't what it should be right now.

Jaguar Prime, on 06 July 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

My point still stands. PPC's are fine as an individual weapon. maybe not so when boated.

As for ERPPC's. I see no reason to discuss that as there is nothing wrong with it, it is in line. You don't see anyone boat 4-6 erppc's seriously. Maybe 2 with regular ppc's in a competitive build.

They both have problems, and serious ones that need adressing - and right now the most basic solution of returning the heat values is the simplest and fastest answer.

The PPC trades a minimum range and moderate long range for its unlimited ammo and relative versatility.

The ERPPC tosses the minimum range out and gains even more range - it should have a higher cost.


Your arguing up a hill while driving sideways. Its not how it works, and if you look at the basic solution here you'll find the problem to drop off.

PPC heat 10 leaves the 4x PPC stalker at a point of running as if it were ERPPC now. The reduced range and miimum range balances it out and that is about the largest it should be. It canoverheat and has its limits and its good.

The ERPPC becomes a specific weapon that can only operate at most in pairs on certain builds. Placing 3 together is just barely worse than the 4x PPC build I just described above. However the damage has dropped to 75% and its far more manageable with how infrequent it is limited to firing.


I am adamant the PPC and ERPPC itself is not fine right now. Not with the current heat levels and certainly not with how the current heat penalties and caps are. Returning the heat back up is a step in the right direction and should be done.

[skullman86]

Yes, the PPC is too powerful, but it has nothing to do with its damage and it isn't the only weapon causing problems.

The AC/10 is balanced by its large size and ammo consumption, while heat is the only factor involved in keeping the PPC in line. Unfortunately, heat isn't able to keep this game balanced all by itself. The PPC's small size and light weight makes it a go to weapon for anyone looking to deal a lot of damage with little effort...by itself it isn't a huge threat, but in large numbers (thanks in part to the abundance of energy hardpoints) it can be pretty devastating.

The two mechanics necessary to stop PPCs (and other problem weapons) are hardpoint limitations/sizes and heat. Changes to convergence will help to a certain extent, but that wont address the loadout issues or weight class balance causing these problems.

[Mystere]

Ngamok, on 06 July 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

... maybe slow the speed down to AC/10 speed.

A big NO on this. Energy-based weapons taking longer to hit than ballistics just boggles my mind. Increase heat if you must, but I say no to any speed changes unless they're to go up.

[Jaguar Prime]

Unbound Inferno, on 06 July 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

Yes, the problem is it can be boated, but its due to the nature of the game that allows it. That cannot change, its an option - but not when it has no concequences. The PPC is skewered the wrong way and isn't what it should be right now.

So, if it's ability to be boated was addressed, would it appear as an over performer in comparison to other weapons?

Edit: I was here before the current incarnation on the PPC/ERPPC (lowering of heat and increased projectile speed). The weapon was effectively shelved. No one serious about winning used it. They made it useful. At first everyone used it in conjunction with other weapons and it was considered fine. Then someone decided to boat it on a stalker. Ever since then, it has been considered the scourge of MWO. This is just the gauss witch hunt all over again.

Edited by Jaguar Prime, 06 July 2013 - 01:07 PM.

[PEEFsmash]

Biggest problem with PPCs is lack of good brawling weapons. However, PPC heat is a bit too low and projectile speed is a bit too fast as well.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 06 July 2013 - 01:28 PM.

[Unbound Inferno]

Jaguar Prime, on 06 July 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

So, if it's ability to be boated was addressed, would it appear as an over performer in comparison to other weapons?

As of now, yes. The heat difference allows it to be easily manageable.

Take 3 PPC out on a stalker, load up on all the HS you can and see how it works. You'll be amazed at its heat efficiency.

Swap it for say LPL and its worse on two counts. Slight duration over time and far shorter range - and I think the LPL generates more heat at the moment. The PPC win out.

[Sephlock]

Jaguar Prime, on 06 July 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

PPC's are fine as an individual weapon. maybe not so when boated.

You don't say?

[AntiCitizenJuan]

No votes = People abusing PPC meta

[Unbound Inferno]

Jaguar Prime, on 06 July 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

So, if it's ability to be boated was addressed, would it appear as an over performer in comparison to other weapons?

Edit: I was here before the current incarnation on the PPC/ERPPC (lowering of heat and increased projectile speed). The weapon was effectively shelved. No one serious about winning used it. They made it useful. At first everyone used it in conjunction with other weapons and it was considered fine. Then someone decided to boat it on a stalker. Ever since then, it has been considered the scourge of MWO. This is just the gauss witch hunt all over again.

For your edited part; I wasn't around back then, but I can see numbers fine.

As best i know as well back then there was other issues that have changes since then - specifically the hit registering part.

I highly doubt if they receive the higher heat it would be completely shelved. As you said yourself it changed when someone boated it on a Stalker after the fix, not before. So there isn't a judge to say that the build can't fit in the mechancis now, or how an altered build would work.

Edited by Unbound Inferno, 06 July 2013 - 01:30 PM.

[Mainhunter]

Victor Morson, on 06 July 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

The problem isn't that the range weapons are good at range combat. It's that they are better at short and medium distances than the weapons designed to work at short-medium distances.I

I'd take ER PPC and Gauss over Large Pulse, SRM6, LBX/10, AC/10, etc. any day of the week. I would even take it, without question, over the AC/20. People always complain about twin AC/20 'mechs, but twin Gauss do almost the same damage from across the map and without heat.

This is the problem. It's not that brawling doesn't happen, it's just better to be a sniper in a brawl than a brawler in a brawl.

It'd be like if you made the AWP in Counter-Strike 100% accurate no-scoped, and lowered the price so it'd cost as much as a P90, for a bad analogy. Nobody would use anything else, ever.

But Assaults have to few hard points for playing with lasers. And after the hill climbing limitations patch, the Assault types have to have at least a punch in her offensive capability's. If you take down the PPC's, the Assault will get dominated by AC`s, I assume.

Seriously, I`m exactly as successful with a 2x PPC setup like with a 3x PPc setup, only because of the heat.

I also have to say, that I find it ridicules, that Assaults can barely have as much or more heat sinks than medium Mechs. I can stuff into my BJ 20-22 double heat sinks, depends on the setup, which Assault can do this and still have a good weapons setup?

And I take a 5x LLaser Stalker with 24 heat sinks over any PPC Stalker. At close range, vs. ligts, a laser is always preferable over a PPC.

[PEEFsmash]

Mainhunter, on 06 July 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

And I take a 5x LLaser Stalker with 24 heat sinks over any PPC Stalker. At close range, vs. ligts, a laser is always preferable over a PPC.

False. For people with poor aim, lasers are preferable vs lights because "at least you can hit them somewhere." For people with very good aim, ERPPCs are far superior because in just a quarter second of lining up the crosshairs, you can put 100% of the damage in one single component.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 06 July 2013 - 01:30 PM.

[CancR]

Set all heat back to BT any only **** with dot/cycle time.

[Ph30nix]

to me PPC"s should be the highest heat potential of all the beam weapons, but i dont think this should be made the case by raising the heat on PPCS, they should lower the heat on the rest of the beam weapons.

Also the Power of the PPC is just made 10x stronger due to the fact most of the other weapons in the game are underpowered crap.

[Unbound Inferno]

Ph30nix, on 06 July 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

to me PPC"s should be the highest heat potential of all the beam weapons, but i dont think this should be made the case by raising the heat on PPCS, they should lower the heat on the rest of the beam weapons.

Also the Power of the PPC is just made 10x stronger due to the fact most of the other weapons in the game are underpowered crap.

They can't do that. If they do the ML spamming haunchies will never have to stop firing..

Better to balance one weapon than rework the entire system.

[El Space Doctor]

PPC's dont really bother me that much. They are good weapons, no doubt among the best to use in several cases, but I would have to agree that the real problem isn't actually with the ppc's either but instead with the mechanics that make them good. Before doing any changes to actual weapons stats, I would like to see that alpha thing checked out. I don't care one bit if I'm with ac's, lasers, gausses or ppcs, alpha boating strikes with exact pinpoint damage are what creates the issue for me and without that fixed, we will always be just going for witch hunts for the weapons are able to put down damage on a certain component most reliably, endlessly favouring boating and big guns that deal a lot of damage with one shot until they've all been nerfed to hell. After that is taken care of the actual quest for balance can begin but currently it's just putting more band **** on top of old ones.

Maybe something has to be done to ppcs, it could very well be, but I sure wouldn't like them to returned the marginal status. I do admit that ever since MW2 I've liked them, but in that game they were actually one of the harder weapons use to use due to very slow projectile travel speed - which I admit is counter intuitive for an energy weapon, but worked great as a balancer.

[Angel of Annihilation]

I don't boat PPCs and often feel they are very underpowered considering their ongodly heat and the amout of weight I have to invest in DHS to even remotely keep them cool.

[General Taskeen]

Sephlock, on 06 July 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

You don't say?

Haha, is that chrono trigger, the most awesomeness old-school rpg ever?


Anyways they could just lower the speed of the PPC, it does not need to have the same speed as the AC/2. 1200-1300 would be decent. Maybe something else, I don't know.

It's either that or return the PPC to the MW4 fast beam with heat transfer. The projectile ppc concept is alright though, just needs tuning.

Edited by General Taskeen, 06 July 2013 - 03:12 PM.