276 replies to this topic

[Canned Heat]

I dont have anywhere near the experience some of you have in the overall history of the series...but if i may put up an idea? What if they made the clan players specifically chosen or hired in house by the company that runs the game. I only bring this idea up because it seems clan tech is uber powerful and they seem to run by a set of rules most cant be trusted to abide by in the real gaming world...

[AJC]

i'm pretty sure the devs will actually work to balance clan tech when it's released which is why anyone who complaining like this i feel are fear mongering "polljumpers" in away they are complaining about something they have no idea how it's gonna work yet.

[Armored Yokai]

Well it might be a good idea but it will help with customizations

[Duvanor]

Oh well, we had this crap with Mech 3 and Mech 4, so let's enter the next round of whining. Or can we quit it?

Omni-Mechs:
There will be a MehLab, which means every Mech can be equally modified. So all Mechs are Omnis.
Or there will be no MechLab. So we get 2 to 6 stock variants of each IS Mech and 2 to 6 alternative configurations of each Omni.

Weapons and equipment:
ClanTech is superior. But you might remember the Mechwarrior 5 trailer. The Warhammer used a drone. This indicates new technologies. I am expecting the IS to get some nasty tricks to play dirty, while the Clans will have only their basic tech.

Numbers and tonnage:
I expect clanners to be outnumbered in Matches IS vs Clan or restricted in tonnage.
Moreover, we will start the game without Clan-Factions. So, when the Clans become playable, there will be a bunch of Dashers and Kit Foxes engaging IS lances of mediums and heavies.

[Kurios]

Ill take the clanners... And Playable ones too. After all, I need something to shoot at for target practice after the Lyrans get old ( They never where meant for combat anyways. Poor Lyrans, way too close to the border. ) And Ill take an IS mech over a Clan mech anyday.

And on kill ratios?
Bias them by BV( BV2 for sticklers. BV 1.0 has issues with clan )
After all, that way, even the light mechs look better...
Top of my head, a Locust is about 400 BV, a Whammy is 1.5k? ( I could be off.. But I think im close ). So its pretty fair to say that a Locust kill is only worth 1/4-ish of a Whammy. But dare that Locust kill a Whammy? Thats like 4 kills right there!

[Strill]

I disagree. You can bypass all of these problems just by making the victory condition dependent on the potency of the mech. For example, each chassis and piece of equipment would have a "cost" stat. The greater the cost of your mech, the more points your team loses when you die. The first team to lose all their points loses the battle. Therefore, you could have one team with cheap IS mechs and another with expensive Clan mechs and they would both be on par because the IS team gets more respawns. It would be pretty simple to just assign higher costs to clan technology, and that provides a very tangible reason to go with inferior IS tech.

Edited by Strill, 18 November 2011 - 02:55 PM.

[Melissia]

Oh, the ycan add clan 'mechs. Just make the clan 'mechs PvE enemies, and anyone can join the various star league task forces and gain salvage by participating in them by having your lance get top marks in the SLDF task force missions. Bam, every faction has equal advantage to them, while making them "you've EARNED this 'mech". Eventually, with IS/C technology, both IS and C 'mechs will be relatively similar in effect anyway.

Another idea is simply to let the IS 'mechs have more support-- for example, calling upon a unit of tanks to support them against the clanners, or having a minefield pre-setup, choice of weather for the terrain, etc, whereas Clan mechs are just pure 'mech firepower for the most part.

Edited by Melissia, 18 November 2011 - 03:14 PM.

[Blackfire1]

I don't care what sort of tech the Clanners had over IS. They lost in the end not from tech but from better piloting and thier own self enforced code of honor.

It comes down to skill. Back in WWII the German panzer division was devastated in and around Ethiopia. Not from tanks, but from camels. Yea, tech only means so much.

[Melissia]

Indeed. But I still think that the clanners need to be PvE enemise first. Mostly because I like the idea of joining an SLDF task force and fighting for the Inner Sphere against the greatest enemies of all the Great Houses.

[DFDelta]

Melissia, on 18 November 2011 - 03:10 PM, said:

Oh, the ycan add clan 'mechs. Just make the clan 'mechs PvE enemies, and anyone can join the various star league task forces and gain salvage by participating in them by having your lance get top marks in the SLDF task force missions. Bam, every faction has equal advantage to them, while making them "you've EARNED this 'mech". Eventually, with IS/C technology, both IS and C 'mechs will be relatively similar in effect anyway.

I think I have once suggested something similar here.
Give every pilot the option to participate in a SLDF raid against the clans. This brings you into a game with a reinforced lance (6 people), one random player from each faction.
The mission itself is a co-op mision on a random map with random objectives.
If all players die they gain money depending on how many goals they have accomplished, if at least one player still lives after you have archieved all goals then its a victory for all.
In case of victory you gain extra money and a chance on a random piece of clan-tech. (15% for a weapon, 10% for another piece of equipment, 3% for a mech type that was downed this game).
This will cause clan tech to be rare and very valuable, and it will make sure that you will always find clan tech on the market.

[Melissia]

Yeah, that's quite similar to what I had in mind as well. You could even limit it to a certain number of task forces run per day, to slow the spread of clan tech to IS mechwarriors if you wanted to.

[DFDelta]

Yeah, should have some sort of cooldown to prevent clan tech from becoming to widespread, and to prevent people with... errrrm.... "too much time on their hands" to make 10+ of those missions each day.

Maybe allow unlimited runs, but give the chance for clan tech a 1 day cooldown, or make you gain "1 chance" every 24 hours and make those chances stackable. So if you can only play on one evening a week you could do it 7 times on sunday (lol), or if you have time every day you could do it once each day.

There should also be some sort of minimum requirement, to prevent people from just joining such a match and then troll the others, wasting their cooldown.

[Eckerson]

lyonn, on 09 November 2011 - 11:03 AM, said:

Based on the lore Clans could be balanced by following enforcements;

IS:Clan ratio drop of mechs 5:3

Clan pilots can only attack 1 target till its destroyed as per the lore fluff (enforced with game mechanics)

Clan pilots cant attack a mech already being attacked as per the lore fluff (enforced with game mechanics)

If a Clan pilot looses his Omnimech he has to take a 2nd line mech till he redeems him self (enforced with game mechanics)

If a Clan pilot looses his 2nd line mech then he has to take a Hunchback IIC till he redeems him self (enforced with game mechanics)

Clan pilots should get more points for disabling a mech than out right destroying it.

From the lore, the Clans only really enforced the single target and don't attack an already engaged target against other Clans or specific oponents in the Inner Sphere. For the most part against the Inner Sphere, they were often quick to dismiss the Spheroids for not being worthy of honorable combat (partially from the tactics used to defend the IS early in the invasion, partially because some Clanners saw fighting the IS as a way to get away with being dishonorable).

Although, it would be interesting to see honorable combat be the basis of advancement for Clan mechwarriors. Fight dishonorably, and receive negative penalties. Beak from zellbrigen and your character advances in rank/level more slowly. That could also open you up to have to defend yourself more often in trials if you're seen to not be honorable, or even forced out of the Clan, causing you to be a mercenary (which then severely limits your access to Clan tech).

The Clans are a very different culture, and it would be easy to explain away changes to the way the metagame and setup of matches for members of those factions as being reflections of that culture. You can even do this on top of any tech or availability changes to balance out the game. If a player wants Clan tech, but doesn't want to have to deal with slower advancement because they don't want to adhere to their rules of engagement, then they are left with salvage. And any tech balances or salvage balances would then help prevent everyone from having Clan salvage, or prevent everyone having Clan salvage a big deal to anyone who wants to play with IS tech.

I don't really mind Clan being toned down for gameplay balance though. I also wouldn't mind restricting the Clans to AI until enough IS advancement has occured to put them on more even footing (in an effort to keep the Clans as a more powerful opponent without affecting PVP balance). I never liked how even at the end of CBT, the Inner Sphere still didn't have much luck in matching Clan tech, which is unrealistic. At least by the point in AoD, some of the more warden clans were selling tech to the Inner Sphere. If they're willing to deviate a bit from the storyline, they could have that happen earlier (since some of the clans are more merchant-caste focused).

Edit to prevent multiposting!:

Duvanor, on 15 November 2011 - 08:48 PM, said:

Weapons and equipment:
ClanTech is superior. But you might remember the Mechwarrior 5 trailer. The Warhammer used a drone. This indicates new technologies. I am expecting the IS to get some nasty tricks to play dirty, while the Clans will have only their basic tech.

Numbers and tonnage:
I expect clanners to be outnumbered in Matches IS vs Clan or restricted in tonnage.
Moreover, we will start the game without Clan-Factions. So, when the Clans become playable, there will be a bunch of Dashers and Kit Foxes engaging IS lances of mediums and heavies.

The new technologies may have just been an indication that MWO is updating the technology to reflect a present-day view of future-technology. Since the Clans were absent from the Inner Sphere figuratively blowing themselves back into the stone age, it would make sense that the Clans would also have access to that technology. That being said, I don't really mind Clan tech being superior. Although, with the Inner Sphere being the defending force, they would be able to have better access to tactical technology, since the stuff in place on those planets (satellite imaging, GPS positioning, communications networks, etc) belong to them and not the Clans. Giving the IS access to more tactical equipment and leaving the Clans with better core mech technology could also be a balancing tactic. I could see the Clans not using drones or other non-mech tactical equipment out of their sense of pride.

I like the numbers and tonnage/BV limits for clan factions (since everyone seemed to suggest a variation of that, although I haven't read through all 11 pages). That can easily be explained as part of the Clan bidding process. So if the IS side has X size force, the Clan side has a max bid of something smaller. You could then add something in to promote the Clan's bidding and honor system by saying that if the Clan side is even smaller than the max bid, they get a bonus.

Without using specific mechs (and over-generalizing forces for ease of writing) as an example:

Say the Inner Sphere forces consist of two mixed-weight lances with at least an Assault class mech in each lance. The max bid only allows the Clan forces to consist of up to a mixed-weight star with only a single Heavy mech. If the Clan forces only bid a mixed-weight star of nothing higher than medium-weight mechs, any success they have against the Inner Sphere forces would provide them with a small bonus for taking the additional handicap.

You could probably do something similar in IS vs IS matches and have it where the IS gains fame for success against a superior force.

Edited by Eckerson, 18 November 2011 - 06:09 PM.

[EDMW CSN]

Clan Omni-mechs or rather Omni-mechs in general do have their own issues.

1) You cannot move the internals around as per fluff, so good luck trying to stuff an ERPPC into the Timber Wolf's CT or a UAC20 in the RT (without spill over crits).

2) You cannot change their armor ! The Hellbringer carries only 8 tons of standard armor and you cannot increase it ! Same for the Gargoyle which carries only 11 tons of armor. Standard Battlemechs however, can modify their armor tonnage.

3) Their heatsinks are fixed from the beginning. So a Garg has to make use of energy weapons cos it has 16 double heatsinks internal. Thus a lot of tonnage has being used up. A standard battlemech can add or remove DHS as they feel the need.

4) Jumpjets. Some are fixed which you cannot get rid of them for more tonnage. The Turkina has 3 fixed JJs and 15 fixed double heatsinks. All located in the side torsos. Which means you need to use your big bore weapons in your arms, which have the least armor of the mech

5) strictly no modification of the engine.

I could go on and on but this is just a small list of restrictions on Omni-tech. I have not even gotten to what sort of technicians you need to maintain their kit and failure rates of Clan weapons if poorly maintained !

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 18 November 2011 - 06:57 PM.

[Riptor]

The clanners lost to comstar because of the lore. Real Players in a game will not adhere to lore if it means that their getting their behinds handed to them because of something theat is out of their control.

There is no lore when it comes to PvP in a match based online game... the people with the most efficient equipment will win.

"Skill" Only goes so far when the enemy has weapons that have a longer range and cause more damage. Also why does everyone bring up skill? Personal is not a factor in the great scheme of things concerning game balance. Are all clan players unskilled noobs for some reason? I think not... there are some very skilled clan players out there.. and skilled player + superior equipment = horrible game for everyone else.

Also clanners dont have to use Omni mechs only... those IIC variants are damn powerfull and most often even better armored.

And with full costumisation there is absolutely no reason to use an omni mech above a IIC variant. Their biggest advantage was the quick change of weapons in the field... but if you can just switch out weapons and equipment from the get go this advantage is nullified...

Making most omnis simply speedy but underarmored glass cannons.

Also using stuff like BV for a match based PvP game is also laced with problems..

Lets assume i sold all my mechs as a clanner to finaly get that sweet daishi... only to find out that now i cant partake in any game because its BV is way to high. Also wich guild/clan unit would field anything BV intensive? If the clans are implemented i want to see a good range of chassis and not only 5 Ryokens per star because they happen to be the most BV efficient... (i choose the ryoken randomly.. could be a Vulture or some other machine by all means)

Also it was mentioned that people worry to much.. to this i have to say that mmos/online games are often broken by balance issues because no one gave a thought beforehand.

Take warhammer online for example.. that game was destroyed by bad balancing. Or WoW that even thought has a large budged and a Crew of Pro Devs with lots of experience it keeps changing class balance with nearly every patch. (they gotten better thought) I think its better for people to let the Devs know that they are worried about balancing issues BEFORE said balancing issues get a chance to rear their ugly heads ingame.

And since this is a licensed game with alot of other games preceeding it + massive lore and not a stand alone MMO with no original material to draw from we now have the perfect chance to make it clear that we are worried about the Clans ruining the balance of the game. This way the Devs know that they have to change something and not implement the clans technology as it was portrait in the lore.

[Halfinax]

since it seems the Devs are intending to allow customization into the mix I just hope they also intend to introduce Battle Value since that will be the only real means of balancing builds outside of using custom variants. If not then it will just be a bigger is better arms race to the top.

[Eckerson]

Riptor, on 18 November 2011 - 07:22 PM, said:

The clanners lost to comstar because of the lore. Real Players in a game will not adhere to lore if it means that their getting their behinds handed to them because of something theat is out of their control.

Most of the events in Battletech happened because of the lore. Chances are, that's what will happen here as well. Although I do agree that players won't adhere to lore, and we really shouldn't expect them to. Anything that is based in the lore should not be intrusive to the gameplay in the match. That's why I don't think forcing zellbrigen on players who want to be in the Clans is a good idea, but I would be fore allowing the option to act within those rules and seeing the effect of it in game.

Riptor, on 18 November 2011 - 07:22 PM, said:

And with full costumisation there is absolutely no reason to use an omni mech above a IIC variant. Their biggest advantage was the quick change of weapons in the field... but if you can just switch out weapons and equipment from the get go this advantage is nullified...

I think you can reflect the difference in Omni vs standard in cost to modify (where as components that fit in Omni bays are cheaper to swap because they're build for that purpose). I think that might add an unnecessary level of complexity since the components not affected by Omni bays would be the same as in a standard mech. Granted, I haven't given it much thought since I don't mind one way or the other if Omni mechs are included (They could include the mechs as standard or not at all and I would be ok with it).

Riptor, on 18 November 2011 - 07:22 PM, said:

Also using stuff like BV for a match based PvP game is also laced with problems..

Lets assume i sold all my mechs as a clanner to finaly get that sweet daishi... only to find out that now i cant partake in any game because its BV is way to high. Also wich guild/clan unit would field anything BV intensive? If the clans are implemented i want to see a good range of chassis and not only 5 Ryokens per star because they happen to be the most BV efficient... (i choose the ryoken randomly.. could be a Vulture or some other machine by all means)

I think that matters mostly depending on the size of the PVP battle. If this was an 8v8, you would be very correct. If there were large scale battles, I think you would see that minimized a bit, but it would be first-come, first-serve on the large BV equipment, which would not be fair if you were joining in late.

Having thought about it a bit more (I was actually trying to come up with an alteration to my previous suggestion before scrapping it), I realize that bidding as a balancing measure would be too intrusive to gameplay, so I think I've changed my mind on that entirely. Simply because it being an instanced PVP match, most likely means people will be sitting in a game lobby waiting for the match to start. Placing a BV limit on the team would mean whoever got to that lobby first has the option of taking higher BV equipment. This would put a disadvantage to the last people joining the lobby before the start of the match, because as more people join, the less available BV there is.

That being said, in order to make the game more tactical (which I thought was one of the goals), you already need to balance heavy mechs against lighter mechs. So although yes an assault class mech is easily more powerful than the light class mech, that light class mech is still useful enough for someone to want to take. And if you can do that, I don't see how you couldn't also do that with Clan vs IS tech. It can be another level of the same form of balancing, although since there isn't much on the game right now, who knows what that balancing is.

Riptor, on 18 November 2011 - 07:22 PM, said:

And since this is a licensed game with alot of other games preceeding it + massive lore and not a stand alone MMO with no original material to draw from we now have the perfect chance to make it clear that we are worried about the Clans ruining the balance of the game. This way the Devs know that they have to change something and not implement the clans technology as it was portrait in the lore.

I agree with this to a point. I still think that if it's possible to have the Clans have more powerful tech, and balance them against IS tech in another way, then it's worth doing. If it still means that some decrease in power is necessary, I'm fine with that. As long as Clan isn't identical to IS tech, I think it will be fine.

[Riptor]

Quote

That being said, in order to make the game more tactical (which I thought was one of the goals), you already need to balance heavy mechs against lighter mechs. So although yes an assault class mech is easily more powerful than the light class mech, that light class mech is still useful enough for someone to want to take. And if you can do that, I don't see how you couldn't also do that with Clan vs IS tech. It can be another level of the same form of balancing, although since there isn't much on the game right now, who knows what that balancing is.

The only solution i can imagine is that there is no BV limit...

But that the game will try to atleast roughly MATCH BVs instead of limiting the ammount of BV per game. This is the only way i can imagine a BV system working...

But it might make the waiting time between matches for Clanners longer then for IS players... so still tricky... after all people should all get the same playtime out of the game no matter wich faction they belong to.

[simon1812]

Cadavus u r dreaming, no publisher or developer that respect itself is going to make a Battletech (Mechwarrior) game without adding the clans, thats it!! thats all the argument I need, the clans r just too darn popular!!!.

but still

so what? what if the clan tech offers the best of the best? they would be like the equivalent of most high end weapons and armors in most mmorpg, advancing in lvl and skill means getting better equipment and I think that what the clan will represent in this game high end equipment, it is easy to assume that the best players will indeed end up sporting clan tech, and it would fit the battletech universe lore wise, IS warrior got their hands in clan tech by trade or isorla, and it is know that IS factions built upgraded version of old IS mechs to match the clans versatility, if developers take that into consideration it will be possible to have IS mech not out shinned by the clan omnis from a technical point of view.

u sound like you want to get rid of the mustang because it will be unfair for the ppl that stick with their T model.

[Kudzu]

Riptor, on 18 November 2011 - 08:41 PM, said:

The only solution i can imagine is that there is no BV limit...

But that the game will try to atleast roughly MATCH BVs instead of limiting the ammount of BV per game. This is the only way i can imagine a BV system working...

But it might make the waiting time between matches for Clanners longer then for IS players... so still tricky... after all people should all get the same playtime out of the game no matter wich faction they belong to.

If you keep Clan vs IS games in a separate queue (perhaps land exchange only?) and have everything else be pure IS vs IS and Clan vs Clan it wouldn't be as much of an issue.