44 replies to this topic

[Pht]

Mackman, on 21 July 2013 - 06:20 PM, said:

I'm here for the "AAA shooter experience" and the "thinking person's shooter" that MWO advertises itself as.

The term "shooter," in particular, carries with it some very specific implications, beginning with the implication that you are the one doing the shooting: Not the one telling something else to do the shooting for you.

Well, at least we agree on this much.

Quote

Don't act as though we are somehow the interlopers ruining your MW experience...

"Mech" - In this case shorthand for BattleMech, an upright walking armed and armored combat unit from the Battletech Universe/Lore.

"Warrior" A person that makes war, usually by the means of combat.

Mech+Warrior= playing as someone who pilots the aforementioned armored combat unit called a BattleMech in armed conflict.

Toss out the 'mech part of the combat equation, and most especially the part about how the mech actually DOES COMBAT, and you don't have Mechwarrior.

[blinkin]

Pht, on 22 July 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

Lies.

Blinkin is, I guess, still mad at me for agreeing with him and than daring to ask him to do what he said should be done in HRR insanity's thread, so now he follows me around the forums doing this sort of thing.

I guess some people don't know how to let go of a grudge.

i had planned to edit more irrelevant stuff out than the first few intro paragraphs (to keep people interested and actually have them read), but almost every line explained how the mech and targeting computers do all of the aiming or just straight up explaining the dice rolls that go into hit locations or to hit rolls. i just ended up quoting pretty much the whole thing.

i think more people should see this mess and see what you are actually about. for any of those interested all of the portions with increased font size are why i am wholeheartedly against this mess.

Pht, on 29 November 2011 - 04:43 PM, said:

Physically, the main skill is the use of a joystick to indicate and track the desired target that one wants their 'Mech to try and hit, and the ability to pull trigger(s) exactly when necessary without disturbing one's aim. The joystick controls a firing reticule which is displayed on the main HUD in the cockpit. BTU 'Mechs are, by design, not allowed to target or track anything with the reticule or choose to shoot any weapon! Minor physical skills consist of the use of mode switches and, for example, configuring Target Interlock Circuits on the fly.

The three most important Mental gunnery skills are:

Knowing how the internal heat levels in your 'Mech will affect it's ability to aim, knowing if your 'Mech can make the shot you're indicating to it, and if you think it can make the shot, how long to let your 'Mech's Targeting and Tracking (T&T) computers calculate lead (weapons convergence) in order to hit the target being indicated and tracked by you. The decision on when to shoot or not shoot and how long let your T&T work on "a fix" is affected by other factors, which a good MechWarrior will take into account.

These factors consist of:
Choosing what weapons should be fired based on their rated battlefield ranges in relation to the distance to the target;

Knowing how the varying environmental and terrain types your 'Mech or a target is in will affect your 'Mech's ability to make the shot;

Choosing when to shoot based upon the target's behavior, for example, waiting until the target is relatively "still" enough in relation to your 'Mech's firing arc so that your 'Mech has an easier time making the shot;

Choosing what sort of movement you will be engaging in while asking your 'Mech to make a shot, for example, standing still while shooting, or running and shooting;

Choosing what types of weapons to fire based on their differing performance parameters i.e. ACs vs Gauss weapons, or pulse lasers vs normal lasers;

Choosing what types of ammo to use for ammo using weapons i.e., when to use LBX Cluster rounds vs LBX AC rounds;

Choosing firing modes for some weapons, for example, attempting to fire normal AC's in rapid fire mode, or rate of fire for Rotary ACs;

Knowing when engaging in an advanced firing mode is worth the tradeoff it requires (for instance, bracing an arm requires you to be immobile; Called Shots are harder to connect with, etc);

Knowing how the damage your 'Mech has taken will affect it's ability to make a shot (weapons can be degraded by taking damage, weapons in damaged arms might not align properly).

In case it's not already obvious, the 'Mech handles the calculation of how far to "lead" a target in order to hit the target that the MechWarrior is indicating with the reticule on his HUD. It is impossible for the MechWarrior to do these calculations anywhere near as fast or as precisely as the 'Mech's computer does them, and especially for multiple weapons types at once. YES, a 'Mech CAN align/converge all of its weapons, torso mounted or otherwise.

It should also be obvious that we can "do" all of these things with our computer peripherals - so there is no need to use and assign a "pilot gunnery skill" modifier in order to use the TT combat system and stats, and there should not be any in-game modifiers for pilot gunnery skill.

----

On to the nuts and bolts of how to "do" WFR!

The basic concept is to look at each weapon's listed TT performance and translate that into, say, a database format for the VG "engine" to work with, and also to look at how capable 'Mechs are at using those weapons in the TT and put that into the database, and any "quirks" that any individual 'Mech might have. Said DB is used in conjunction with whatever mechanic the game has for resolving where the firing and fired upon 'Mechs are and what way they are facing, what they were doing at the time of the shot, and where the targeting reticule in the firing 'Mech is placed at the time when the firing happens in order to handle WFR.

Things to know: plus modifiers ( + ) indicate things or conditions that make targets harder to hit. Negative modifiers ( - ) make it easier to hit targets. All to-hit modifiers are cumulative, and the total to-hit modifier is the number that must be equaled or surpassed when rolling two six-sided dice (2d6). Small Roller: http://www.fnordista...mallroller.html is an excellent program for calculating the effect that these modifiers have. As a rule of thumb, trying to hit anything that requires you to roll more than a six on 2d6 is a bad idea; just about half of your shots will miss on a 7. Just a little bit under 75% of your shots will hit "on a 6." The 'Mech actually indicates the to-hit number directly on the hud - it does it as color coding on the reticule; usually red for "poor targeting" (high to-hit modifier) to gold for "best targeting" (low to-hit modifier); along with audible cues.

The basic combat mechanic is to add up all of the to-hit modifiers, and than attempt to roll a number equal or higher than the total to-hit modifier on 2d6 for every weapon fired. Once it is determined which shots actually hit, the hit-location table appropriate for the situation is used to determine exactly what parts of the target your 'Mech was able to hit. The Hit-location tables are discussed in detail further down.

Now, onto how capable 'Mechs are of hitting the target indicated with their weapons

This describes the abilities of the 'Mech to handle it's weapons under varying conditions.

TARGET

Is:
Standing still -1
prone -2 from adjacent 30 meters, +1 from further out
Immobile -4
skidding +2
A Battle Armor +1
Aerofighter @ 12 high +1
Aerofighter otherwise +3
Secondary in fwd arc +1
secondary in other arc +2
Jumping +1(additional to other mods)
Flying non-aero +1
Sprinting -1
Evading +1 to +3, dependent on it's pilot's skill.

Is at:
Minimum range (minimum)-(target range)+1 (only for weapons with a minimum range, like ppcs)
Short range +0 - 100% of the shots hit
medium range +2 - 100% of the shots hit
long range +4 - 91.67% or 11 out of 12 shots hit
Extreme range +6 - 72.22% or 13 out of 18 shots hit
LOS range +8 - 27.78% or 5 out of 18 shots hit

Again, please note that this range table describes the capabilities of the 'Mech to overcome range effects on shots, NOT MechWarrior gunnery skill!

Target movement/ Target has moved (x) number of hexes:
Immobile -4 (Immobile =target CAN NOT move)
0 hexes moved -1 0 meters (standing still)
1-2 hexes moved +0 30-60 meters (10.8 to 21.6 KM/h - 6.7 to 13.4 mph)
3-4 hexes moved +1 90-120m (32.4 to 43.2 KM/h - 20.1 to 26.8 mph)
5-6 hexes moved +2 150-180m (54.0 to 64.8 KM/h - 33.5 to 40.2 mph)
7-9 hexes moved +3 210-270m (75.6 to 97.2 KM/h - 46.9 to 60.3 mph)
10-17 hexes moved +4 300-510m (108.0 to 183.6 KM/h - 67.1 to 114.0 mph)
18-24 hexes moved +5 540-720m (194.4 to 259.2 KM/h - 120.7 to 161.0 mph)
25+ hexes moved +6 750m (270.0 KM/h - 167.7 mph and up)

Yes, there are "range gaps" here; but the raw math data here can be plotted on a graph, so these "range gaps" can be "filled in," and if necessary, the raw velocities can be used to determine to-hit numbers, if that is easier for the back-end of the video game. This is an example where the exact form of the TT rules might not be the best to use, but the math expressed can still be used to get good results.

Target is in:
light woods +1
heavy woods +2
ultra heavy woods +3 (woods too dense for 'Mechs or protomechs to move through)
light jungle +1
Heavy jungle +2
Ultra heavy jungle +3 (woods too dense for 'Mechs or protomechs to move through)
Heavy industrial zone +1
Light smoke +1
heavy smoke +2
EM interference +2 (-2 cluster table)

This particular list could go on to insanity - there are many terrain and environment types that affect targeting.

SELF

Damage Effects:
Sensor hit +2
Shoulder hit +4 for weapons in arm, disregard all other damaged actuators in arm
upper or lower arm actuator (each) +1 for weapons in arm
Varying effects based on the Extended Critical Damage rules from Tactical Operations, from a +1 to-hit modifier to varying effects such as even worse to-hit modifiers, weapons jamming, or less damage output. .

Heat Effects:
0-7 +0
8-12 +1
13-16 +2
17-23 +3
24-32 +4
33-40 +5
41-47 +6
48 and higher +7

Yes, heat is EVIL! It makes the 'Mech's myomers sluggish, jerky, and unpredictable; and does ugly things to weapons alignment motors... besides possibly destroying components at extremely high heat levels. Don't even ask how evil ammo explosions can be. This is why keeping track of your 'Mech's heat level is such an important gunnery skill!

Movement & other effects:
Stationary +0
walked +1
ran +2
jumped +3
prone +2 (does not apply to quads)
skidding +1
sprinted - impossible to shoot while sprinting

Snap shots: (A no waiting on the T&T to get a good "fix" on the target indicated type of shot, the shot occurs so quickly that the 'Mech cannot torso twist or swing arms to align weapons arcs not already pointed at target)
While standing still +2
While on the move +3
While Jumping +6

Careful aim -1 to -3 (allowing your T&T computers a longer time to get a good "fix"- does not work with pulse weapons, cluster LBX rounds, or rapid-fire weapons firing more than one salvo.)
Bracing -2 (this is when you brace one of your 'Mech's arms on a structure to steady it, modifier only applies to weapons in braced arm).

... and there are more that could be listed for the 'Mechs, but this is enough and than some for right now.

---

How well a 'Mech can converge (concentrate its weapons fire into any given area) a single or all of its weapons onto a target.

This is the thing that's really been messed up in MW video games. It seems developers have so far thought that the pilots are the major factor in how well a 'Mech can converge it's weapons - which is wrong. Getting every weapon to hit a single section of a targeted 'Mech is a HARDWARE thing in the BTUniverse. Namely, if you don't have an Advanced Targeting Computer, your 'Mech won't be able to get its weapon or weapons to hit exactly what section you're aiming at on mobile targets. The advanced TC will be discussed a bit further down. There ARE also a set of hit-location tables that DO represent raw Mechwarrior Gunnery skill - the Called Shot tables. Those are discussed too. Also if a target is immobile any 'Mech, with or without an advanced TC, will be able to get more of it's weapons to concentrate onto a single area of a targeted 'Mech; this is an Aimed Shot.

BESIDES the Called Shot hit location tables that represent the pilot's gunnery skill, these hit-location tables represent the combat performance of THE BATTLEMECH.

So let's have an example; I'll work this out for a shot to the center of mass of the front of a targeted 'Mech.

Remember, this is just expressing the ability of the 'Mech to converge one or all of its weapons onto the area of the targeted 'Mech that the pilot has indicated, not weapons or pilot performance; and this is only for shots that have ALREADY been determined to have hit the targeted 'Mech.

The Basic hit-location table
This first set represents keeping the the reticule on the center of mass ("chest") of the front of the target 'Mech:

There's a 13.89% or 5 out of 36 chance of hitting the right arm
There's a 13.89% or 5 out of 36 chance of hitting the left arm
There's a 11.11% or 1 out of 9 chance of hitting the right leg
There's a 11.11% or 1 out of 9 chance of hitting the left leg
There's a 13.89% or 5 out of 36 chance of hitting the right torso
There's a 13.89% or 5 out of 36 chance of hitting the left torso
There's a 16.67% or 1 out of 6 chance of hitting the center torso
There's a 2.78% or 1 out of 36 chance of hitting the cockpit

What do all these percentages mean in the game? Well, in the DB, they're just pure numbers in a math equation, but for the player it could be expressed visually in the game manual or in training missions in color coded zones across the target to show how shots will concentrate, depending on what you're aiming at, so people could get a feeling for the combat capability of their 'Mech; and this would go for every type of hit-location table.

Here's the table that gives the data that the above is derived from:



And here's the hit-location table for 'Mechs lying on the ground (or quad 'Mechs):



Called Shot hit-location tables

These are the tables that represent how well a 'Mech's pilot can get their 'Mech to get it to put it's weapons fire into a smaller area of a targeted 'Mech. There are two tables: Call high-low, and Call left-right. Attempting to make a Called Shot adds another +3 to the to-hit number that must be overcome. This means that less of your shots will hit, but those that do hit will concentrate into a smaller area.

In game play terms, you "activate" the called-shot hit-location tables by aiming at specific parts of your target. For example, to use the "aim high" Called Shot table, you'd aim at the target's cockpit, neck, or extreme upper torso.

Called high:
There's a 16.67% or 1 out of 6 chance of hitting the:
Left or right arm, Left, right, or center front torsos, or the cockpit.

(Yes, this means that if anyone tells you that if you that if you aim at his cockpit, you can hit his foot ... they're wrong.)

Called Low:
A 33.34% chance of hitting the right leg
A 33.34% chance of hitting the left leg
A 16.67% or 1 out of 6 chance of hitting the right torso
A 16.67% or 1 out of 6 chance of hitting the left torso

Here's the table for Called Shots aimed high/aimed low.



For Called Shots Left or Right:
You use the normal hit-tables, except you have a +3 modifier, and you use the column one section over from where you would normally aim... for instance, if you call a shot left against a target standing directly in front of you ("in your front arc"), facing you , you use the "left" column on the basic hit table.



This table is used for calling shots Left/Right against a mech with it's front facing directly at you or it's back facing directly at you.

If your target's left or right side is facing you, and you want to aim left/right you use the Advanced hit table, posted above (which gives you a chance to hit their rear torsos).

It should be very obvious by now that the hit-location tables are VERY important. In fact, there is good reason to use the tables we already have as a standard baseline to construct more hit-tables to account for some situations which crop up in the video game format.

Aimed Shots

An Aimed shot is the occasion when a 'Mech without an advanced Targeting Computer can actually target specific locations against a target. Without a TC Aimed shots are only possible versus immobile targets, and only direct fire weapons and non-cluster ammunition types are usable for this.

The to-hit modifier for an immobile target is -4 (-5 if you have a TC) if you try and target any part other than the cockpit; cockpit aimed shots have a +3 to-hit modifier (A TC does not affect the cockpit to-hit). After it is determined how many of your shots connect, all weapons that roll a 6, 7, or 8 on 2d6 hit the location you've chosen. If you don't roll a 6,7, or 8 you don't automatically hit the specific location you aimed for. Instead, you roll on the appropriate normal hit-location table (yes, this can result in hitting the section you targeted anyways).

A 'Mech is considered immobile if it is shut down, it's pilot is unconscious, if it is bracing an arm to try and make a hard shot, if it is hooked to a coolant truck, or is having it's ammo reloaded. Quad 'Mechs that have lost 3 or 4 legs are considered immobile. A bipedal 'Mech that has lost both legs and both arms is considered immobile. "Immobile" equates to a unit not being able to move on it's own at all.

The Advanced Targeting Computer

This bit of hardware is a game-changer. It is a HIGH reward for big tradeoffs piece of hardware. Besides subtracting 1 from virtually all to-hit modifiers (including those for Called Shots), it allows your 'Mech to actually target specific locations on a mobile target!

A TC consists of an advanced computer that is far more powerful than the standard BattleMech T&T suite - it is able to adjust for many more variables far more quickly. A TC is not just an advanced computer suite, it also employs recoil compensators, gyroscopic stabilizers, and other hardware attached to the various direct-fire weapons systems mounted in a 'Mech. These components help to overcome weapons drift, muzzle recoil on kinetic weapons, and any erratic targeting inputs induced by the MechWarrior. The size and weight of a TC is directly proportional to the weight of all 'Mech-scale heavy weapons it is connected to. Inner Sphere TC's equal the total weapons weight divided by four, clan TC's divide by 5, and both take up a number of criticals (internal spaces) equal to the calculated tonnage of the TC (rounding up at half tons). Yes, they can get VERY heavy and large quite quickly... no free lunches!

In gameplay, having a TC allows you to make an Aimed Shot (not to be confused with a Called Shot) against *mobile* targets. The differences between a normal Aimed Shot vs an Immobile target and an Aimed Shot against a mobile target using a TC is that there is a +3 to-hit modifier, and it is not possible to target the cockpit on a mobile target. Otherwise, all of the other rules for an Aimed Shot apply. If my wonky math is correct, that's about 1 out of 4 shots that "make" their to-hit number will hit what you've aimed at, on average, which doesn't sound like much, until you consider that the best odds you can normally get otherwise are 1 out of 6 vs the center torso, or to hit a leg, when calling a shot low (when virtually all there IS to hit is a leg!). In practice, TC aimed shots vs mobile targets are very useful for chiseling a specific part off.

Using a TC to make a shot vs a specific location in game requires turning this function on. With this function off, a 'Mech with a TC behaves just like a 'Mech without one, except you have the advantage of a -1 to-hit modifier for most direct fire weapons types in the vast majority of situations.

---

So, what are the bonuses building the video game combat system this way? For one, it's possible put the stuff into a DB in the form of rules, which means its possible to control and predict what's going to happen, and to predict how new rules in the DB will modify gameplay. It allows the Devs to control how the combat will function in game - misses and hits with weapons can be made to visually (and otherwise) miss in ways that "Make sense." It gives the flexibility to tweak values in small amounts in order to get things "just right." It would also allow the use of the penetrating hits/internal components damage system from the TT combat system, which, with the addition of the advanced "critical hit" and critical damage rules behaves in an intuitive and predictable manner, while discouraging mindless rushing without making the game into an insta-death festival.

On the end user side - us sitting at our PC's, the advantages are that what's seen on screen behaves in a manner that makes sense and allows us to suspend disbelief ; BattleMechs actually perform like BattleMechs from the novels and the lore; Gunnery skill with a mouse and a cool head are rewarded, as is fore-thought and training; knowledge of the 'Mechs becomes useful and important (doubly so if the 'Mech "Quirks" from Strategic Ops are used); Knowledge of the weapons systems becomes important; new players aren't scared off, and veteran players have more things to pursue besides repetitive grinding for MC and the like.

the more i read this the more i am convinced that after a certain point you just did a copy paste of the tabletop rules into your thread.

i don't even have to argue against you. i can just quote you and highlight the worst parts of the mess.

[Pht]

You should work in NBC's 911 tape-editing room.

You have a knack for thinking everyone must use words to mean exactly what you think they mean and nothing else, even when those words are ambigous (like the word "aim"), and must be defined by the context they are used in.

All you have manged to do here is the equivalent of screaming "BOOGEYMAN! RUN!"

[blinkin]

Pht, on 22 July 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

You should work in NBC's 911 tape-editing room.

You have a knack for thinking everyone must use words to mean exactly what you think they mean and nothing else, even when those words are ambigous (like the word "aim"), and must be defined by the context they are used in.

All you have manged to do here is the equivalent of screaming "BOOGEYMAN! RUN!"

and all it took was a little bit of font editing. you supplied all of the core material.

so at what point did i lie? was it a lie when i mentioned the to hit rolls and called shots with dice modifiers or do you not believe that i think it is a screwed up mess?

fyi, i use the word aim like it has been used for several thousand years with guns, bows, javelins, and ballistics in general.

Edited by blinkin, 22 July 2013 - 05:25 PM.

[Pht]

blinkin, on 22 July 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

and all it took was a little bit of font editing. you supplied all of the core material. so at what point did i lie?

Where you constantly think that the word "aim" only means what you think it means and you don't bother to see if something is meant other than what you think; because obviously, [sarcasm] a symbol can only be used by everyone to symbolize ONLY one thing...[/sarcasm]

and you constantly repeat the same accusation without bothering to see if what you're saying is true.

Quote

fyi, i use the word aim like it has been used for several thousand years with guns, bows, javelins, and ballistics in general.

This is not a definition.

You may as well say that you can't aim a shotgun. Or that a sniper can't aim a rifle, because other factors enter the equation.

Still waiting on you to reply to this: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2582720

Which might actually start to clear this up.

Edited by Pht, 22 July 2013 - 06:49 PM.

[blinkin]

Pht, on 22 July 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

Where you constantly think that the word "aim" only means what you think it means and you don't bother to see if something is meant other than what you think; because obviously, [sarcasm] a symbol can only be used by everyone to symbolize ONLY one thing...[/sarcasm]

in any basic form of communication there must be some basic ground rules and commonalities. without such things communication breaks down and can even become impossible. EXAMPLE: our communications break down on a regular basis because you insist on coming up with your own definitions for commonly used and clearly defined words.

3 words:
ready
aim
fire

what do you think is supposed to happen with the second word?

and you constantly repeat the same accusation without bothering to see if what you're saying is true.

what accusation? i quoted you and then highlighted important parts. many of the parts you even insisted yourself qualified as important.

This is not a definition.

You may as well say that you can't aim a shotgun. Or that a sniper can't aim a rifle, because other factors enter the equation.

damn i thought shotguns and sniper rifles fell under the category of guns that i listed first. i guess i fail again at using your proper word definitions.

Still waiting on you to reply to this: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2582720

Which might actually start to clear this up.

nothing on my end has changed. so far everything you have ever said has just reinforced my view of your system, but i am steadily driving you into a corner with your own words. you even finally admitted that my description of your system was accurate for once.

[Pht]

Blinkin said:

in any basic form of communication there must be some basic ground rules and commonalities. without such things communication breaks down and can even become impossible.

Which is exactly why I pointed out that you and I are using the word in different senses. It is also impossible to for everyone to use every word in the exact same way. If we did there would be no point to using dictionaries and no evolution in language.

what accusation? i quoted you and then highlighted important parts. many of the parts you even insisted yourself qualified as important.

Your conclusion based upon your wrong understanding because you automatically have been presuming that I must make all of your assumptions as far as word usages.

nothing on my end has changed. so far everything you have ever said has just reinforced my view of your system, but i am steadily driving you into a corner with your own words. you even finally admitted that my description of your system was accurate for once.

I did not agree with you. I simply forgot to type out the "dis" part of the word "disagree."

[blinkin]

Pht, on 26 July 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

Which is exactly why I pointed out that you and I are using the word in different senses. It is also impossible to for everyone to use every word in the exact same way. If we did there would be no point to using dictionaries and no evolution in language.

• you aren't using different senses you are making up entirely new meanings for words. i have responded several times to your posts with links and references from online dictionaries in an effort to curb some of this.
  
• but let's make this simpler.
  
• how useful is the word "dog" if it can effectively mean any living creature?
  
• redefining words doesn't work if no one else knows the new definition.

Your conclusion based upon your wrong understanding because you automatically have been presuming that I must make all of your assumptions as far as word usages.

• if rolling dice and "the mech's aiming ability" were not important then why did you reference them at least 48 times and state "It should be very obvious by now that the hit-location tables are VERY important."? <-not sure of any other way to interpret this.

I did not agree with you. I simply forgot to type out the "dis" part of the word "disagree."

• so back pedaling is all you have left now? just can't admit that someone could fully understand your system and still think it is bad?

before your attempts to claim i was ignorant were amusing. now it is just pathetic how incredibly self absorbed you are and how you cannot accept any form of criticism.

Edited by blinkin, 18 August 2013 - 08:16 PM.

[Typhoon Storm 2142]

Pht, on 12 July 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

the mech's ability to individually aim each of it's weapons (and they can); and the 'mechs ability to calculate where to physically aim the weapons based upon the inputs from it's pilot.

That's the biggest issue in this game. I don't think that, for example, a HBK 4P is able aim each of his 9 energy weapons at a different target, or converge them all on one spot. Even if the BT novels suggest otherwise, this shouldn't be in the game. Torso mounted weapons don't have any actuators, so they shouldn't move at all. No flexible convergence for torso weapons, period.

Strum Wealh, on 21 July 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

Personally, I would rather see arm-mounted weapons able to make use of non-instantaneous, range-based convergence adjustments, while torso-mounted weapons are fixed in position and harmonized to converge at a given range in the MechLab.
Thoughts?

This is the best way to handle a 'Mechs weapon behaviour. Torso weapons don't move at all...they just shoot straight, or maybe at a fixed spot, which is designated in the 'Mechlab, before a match. This will make people less likely to spam high damage pin-point alpha strikes.

I also agree that the OP made a huge mess with this thread.

Edited by Typhoon Storm 2142, 19 August 2013 - 02:44 AM.

[Pht]

blinkin said:

• you aren't using different senses you are making up entirely new meanings for words. i have responded several times to your posts with links and references from online dictionaries in an effort to curb some of this.
  
• but let's make this simpler.
  
• how useful is the word "dog" if it can effectively mean any living creature?
  
• redefining words doesn't work if no one else knows the new definition.

"Different sense=different meaning"

I've stated several times what I meant by the word.

• if rolling dice and "the mech's aiming ability" were not important then why did you reference them at least 48 times and state "It should be very obvious by now that the hit-location tables are VERY important."? <-not sure of any other way to interpret this.

I didn't state anywhere that they weren't important.

• so back pedaling is all you have left now? just can't admit that someone could fully understand your system and still think it is bad?

And of course, had I edited the post after I posted it, you'd probably accuse me of changing what I had said.

[Pht]

Typhoon Storm 2142, on 19 August 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

Torso mounted weapons don't have any actuators, so they shouldn't move at all. No flexible convergence for torso weapons, period.

False.

Source:

Paul said:

Correct, each weapon is aimed independently beyond the mobility of any limbs or torso or turret it might be attached to. Part of their weapon mass and bulk is taken up by this.

http://bg.battletech....html#msg676374

And also the tech manual writeup pgs 31 and FF which backs this up; this section of TM is pointed out as the current controlling and clarifying source on this topic here:

Cray said:

That fluff of Tech Manual would be adhered to by default. I can and have pointed out mistakes in control descriptions in BattleCorps stories and referred the author to the Tech Manual for the correct descriptions. (Not directly - such continuity commentary is subject to editorial / line developer oversight. See point 5, above.) As it stands, Tech Manual has the current descriptions of how BattleMech weaponry and movement is controlled and writers stick to that.

http://bg.battletech....html#msg591660


As to the contention that it's better to do fixed (ww2 Fighter plane style) convergence or something like that; that would be a programming nightmare of the highest order, as it would probably require a raytrace/cast for each weapons port. Raytracing/casting is OBSCENELY expensive in computing power.

Edited by Pht, 21 August 2013 - 10:28 AM.

[Typhoon Storm 2142]

Pht, on 21 August 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

False.

I have already stated that it's not part of the canon that torso weapons are unable to converge. But so are weapon recycle times in MWO. Actually ALOT mechanics in MWO are not justifiable with the novels or TT rules. So, spare me your wisecracking and just aknowledge that we would have alot less problems with alpha strikes if MY solution was implemented.

Try aiming all your weapons in the sky and then quickly draw your crosshairs over a close target and fire. You think it's a good thing that all your weapons converge at virtually no time? I don't.

[Pht]

Typhoon Storm 2142, on 21 August 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

I have already stated that it's not part of the canon that torso weapons are unable to converge.

If you have, I haven't seen it.

I did see you post that the weapons *might* be like that in the lore. You otherwise posted that they can't ... and that they shouldn't.

Quote

But so are weapon recycle times in MWO. Actually ALOT mechanics in MWO are not justifiable with the novels or TT rules.

Actually, the TT and the lore at large simply ... don't ... list the actual recycle times on the weapons. We only know that they recycle in ten seconds or less.

Quote

So, spare me your wisecracking and just aknowledge that we would have alot less problems with alpha strikes if MY solution was implemented.

That wasn't a wisecrack. I was simply pointing out the fact that we know, from the ip holders of the lore, that the 'mechs can and do physically align every individual weapon mounted in them.

If it were possible at all to have WW2 fighter plane style deconvergence, it would, in purely gameplay terms, obviously remove the pin-point under the reticule weapons damage problem.

I don't think it's possible as a fix, because you would have to than know where each weapon intersected a target, meaning multiple raytraces, which are very, very, very computing expensive.

Quote

Try aiming all your weapons in the sky and then quickly draw your crosshairs over a close target and fire. You think it's a good thing that all your weapons converge at virtually no time? I don't.

I've actually been arguing since at least the first gameplay video before closed beta that having all direct fire weapons of like velocity hit fired at the same time hit the exact same spot under the reticule is bad.

[blinkin]

me: what accusation? i quoted you and then highlighted important parts. many of the parts you even insisted yourself qualified as important.

Pht: Your conclusion based upon your wrong understanding because you automatically have been presuming that I must make all of your assumptions as far as word usages.

me: if rolling dice and "the mech's aiming ability" were not important then why did you reference them at least 48 times and state "It should be very obvious by now that the hit-location tables are VERY important."? <-not sure of any other way to interpret this.

Pht: I didn't state anywhere that they weren't important.

^^does this help with your goldfish like stunted memory? just read this through once and see if you can spot the problem. (for all of you outsiders who are just coming in to this, i took the OP from the first link in his signature: Mech Weapons Handling and systematically went through highlighting any reference i could find to rolling, dice modifiers, and "mech's aiming ability". i found 48 cases that met those qualifications.)

this whole mess is like a damned monty python skit.

so was i wrong in concluding that "mech's aiming ability" and dice rolls were important (fyi this is the part i hate about your system, just to save any confusion for now)? or is it that you don't like it when i call you out for making up your own damned language and trying to pass the mess off as english.

Pht, on 28 July 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

What you've done is the internet version of "fallacy of accent" - emphasizing words in a statement causing the so-modified statement to have a different meaning than the original. For example... (original statement) "drink ye all of this." (falsely accented statement) "drink ye all of this" The first means "drink all of this." The second means "all of you drink this." Exact same statements... mangled by accent. Sort of like the sign:

_{we are not selling} FREE BEER TODAY!

so then there is a direct negation associated with (i'll be forgiving here) most of the things i highlighted then?

i have taken several classes on argumentative logic and your ignorant use of random fallacies you heard on TV do not impress me.

(with respect to your attempt to work around having to explain yourself before) in this i am not asking you to accept my "fallacy" as legitimate truth i am asking you to clearly explain how i committed a fallacy when (as far as i can tell) none of the things i highlighted were ever negated in any way within the original quoted post.

still waiting.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and again for any newcomers here is the original version (i removed the first paragraph which was basically a sales pitch and contained nothing of substance beyond that i only ever increased font size or changed the font itself, bold, italics, underline, etc.). he has since changed it in response to my prodding. i will read the new version and see if anything meaningful actually changed, but i have my doubts :

Pht, on 29 November 2011 - 04:43 PM, said:

Physically, the main skill is the use of a joystick to indicate and track the desired target that one wants their 'Mech to try and hit, and the ability to pull trigger(s) exactly when necessary without disturbing one's aim. The joystick controls a firing reticule which is displayed on the main HUD in the cockpit. BTU 'Mechs are, by design, not allowed to target or track anything with the reticule or choose to shoot any weapon! Minor physical skills consist of the use of mode switches and, for example, configuring Target Interlock Circuits on the fly.

The three most important Mental gunnery skills are:

Knowing how the internal heat levels in your 'Mech will affect it's ability to aim, knowing if your 'Mech can make the shot you're indicating to it, and if you think it can make the shot, how long to let your 'Mech's Targeting and Tracking (T&T) computers calculate lead (weapons convergence) in order to hit the target being indicated and tracked by you. The decision on when to shoot or not shoot and how long let your T&T work on "a fix" is affected by other factors, which a good MechWarrior will take into account.

These factors consist of:
Choosing what weapons should be fired based on their rated battlefield ranges in relation to the distance to the target;

Knowing how the varying environmental and terrain types your 'Mech or a target is in will affect your 'Mech's ability to make the shot;

Choosing when to shoot based upon the target's behavior, for example, waiting until the target is relatively "still" enough in relation to your 'Mech's firing arc so that your 'Mech has an easier time making the shot;

Choosing what sort of movement you will be engaging in while asking your 'Mech to make a shot, for example, standing still while shooting, or running and shooting;

Choosing what types of weapons to fire based on their differing performance parameters i.e. ACs vs Gauss weapons, or pulse lasers vs normal lasers;

Choosing what types of ammo to use for ammo using weapons i.e., when to use LBX Cluster rounds vs LBX AC rounds;

Choosing firing modes for some weapons, for example, attempting to fire normal AC's in rapid fire mode, or rate of fire for Rotary ACs;

Knowing when engaging in an advanced firing mode is worth the tradeoff it requires (for instance, bracing an arm requires you to be immobile; Called Shots are harder to connect with, etc);

Knowing how the damage your 'Mech has taken will affect it's ability to make a shot (weapons can be degraded by taking damage, weapons in damaged arms might not align properly).

In case it's not already obvious, the 'Mech handles the calculation of how far to "lead" a target in order to hit the target that the MechWarrior is indicating with the reticule on his HUD. It is impossible for the MechWarrior to do these calculations anywhere near as fast or as precisely as the 'Mech's computer does them, and especially for multiple weapons types at once. YES, a 'Mech CAN align/converge all of its weapons, torso mounted or otherwise.

It should also be obvious that we can "do" all of these things with our computer peripherals - so there is no need to use and assign a "pilot gunnery skill" modifier in order to use the TT combat system and stats, and there should not be any in-game modifiers for pilot gunnery skill.

----

On to the nuts and bolts of how to "do" WFR!

The basic concept is to look at each weapon's listed TT performance and translate that into, say, a database format for the VG "engine" to work with, and also to look at how capable 'Mechs are at using those weapons in the TT and put that into the database, and any "quirks" that any individual 'Mech might have. Said DB is used in conjunction with whatever mechanic the game has for resolving where the firing and fired upon 'Mechs are and what way they are facing, what they were doing at the time of the shot, and where the targeting reticule in the firing 'Mech is placed at the time when the firing happens in order to handle WFR.

Things to know: plus modifiers ( + ) indicate things or conditions that make targets harder to hit. Negative modifiers ( - ) make it easier to hit targets. All to-hit modifiers are cumulative, and the total to-hit modifier is the number that must be equaled or surpassed when rolling two six-sided dice (2d6). Small Roller: http://www.fnordista...mallroller.html is an excellent program for calculating the effect that these modifiers have. As a rule of thumb, trying to hit anything that requires you to roll more than a six on 2d6 is a bad idea; just about half of your shots will miss on a 7. Just a little bit under 75% of your shots will hit "on a 6." The 'Mech actually indicates the to-hit number directly on the hud - it does it as color coding on the reticule; usually red for "poor targeting" (high to-hit modifier) to gold for "best targeting" (low to-hit modifier); along with audible cues.

The basic combat mechanic is to add up all of the to-hit modifiers, and than attempt to roll a number equal or higher than the total to-hit modifier on 2d6 for every weapon fired. Once it is determined which shots actually hit, the hit-location table appropriate for the situation is used to determine exactly what parts of the target your 'Mech was able to hit. The Hit-location tables are discussed in detail further down.

Now, onto how capable 'Mechs are of hitting the target indicated with their weapons

This describes the abilities of the 'Mech to handle it's weapons under varying conditions.

TARGET

Is:
Standing still -1
prone -2 from adjacent 30 meters, +1 from further out
Immobile -4
skidding +2
A Battle Armor +1
Aerofighter @ 12 high +1
Aerofighter otherwise +3
Secondary in fwd arc +1
secondary in other arc +2
Jumping +1(additional to other mods)
Flying non-aero +1
Sprinting -1
Evading +1 to +3, dependent on it's pilot's skill.

Is at:
Minimum range (minimum)-(target range)+1 (only for weapons with a minimum range, like ppcs)
Short range +0 - 100% of the shots hit
medium range +2 - 100% of the shots hit
long range +4 - 91.67% or 11 out of 12 shots hit
Extreme range +6 - 72.22% or 13 out of 18 shots hit
LOS range +8 - 27.78% or 5 out of 18 shots hit

Again, please note that this range table describes the capabilities of the 'Mech to overcome range effects on shots, NOT MechWarrior gunnery skill!

Target movement/ Target has moved (x) number of hexes:
Immobile -4 (Immobile =target CAN NOT move)
0 hexes moved -1 0 meters (standing still)
1-2 hexes moved +0 30-60 meters (10.8 to 21.6 KM/h - 6.7 to 13.4 mph)
3-4 hexes moved +1 90-120m (32.4 to 43.2 KM/h - 20.1 to 26.8 mph)
5-6 hexes moved +2 150-180m (54.0 to 64.8 KM/h - 33.5 to 40.2 mph)
7-9 hexes moved +3 210-270m (75.6 to 97.2 KM/h - 46.9 to 60.3 mph)
10-17 hexes moved +4 300-510m (108.0 to 183.6 KM/h - 67.1 to 114.0 mph)
18-24 hexes moved +5 540-720m (194.4 to 259.2 KM/h - 120.7 to 161.0 mph)
25+ hexes moved +6 750m (270.0 KM/h - 167.7 mph and up)

Yes, there are "range gaps" here; but the raw math data here can be plotted on a graph, so these "range gaps" can be "filled in," and if necessary, the raw velocities can be used to determine to-hit numbers, if that is easier for the back-end of the video game. This is an example where the exact form of the TT rules might not be the best to use, but the math expressed can still be used to get good results.

Target is in:
light woods +1
heavy woods +2
ultra heavy woods +3 (woods too dense for 'Mechs or protomechs to move through)
light jungle +1
Heavy jungle +2
Ultra heavy jungle +3 (woods too dense for 'Mechs or protomechs to move through)
Heavy industrial zone +1
Light smoke +1
heavy smoke +2
EM interference +2 (-2 cluster table)

This particular list could go on to insanity - there are many terrain and environment types that affect targeting.

SELF

Damage Effects:
Sensor hit +2
Shoulder hit +4 for weapons in arm, disregard all other damaged actuators in arm
upper or lower arm actuator (each) +1 for weapons in arm
Varying effects based on the Extended Critical Damage rules from Tactical Operations, from a +1 to-hit modifier to varying effects such as even worse to-hit modifiers, weapons jamming, or less damage output. .

Heat Effects:
0-7 +0
8-12 +1
13-16 +2
17-23 +3
24-32 +4
33-40 +5
41-47 +6
48 and higher +7

Yes, heat is EVIL! It makes the 'Mech's myomers sluggish, jerky, and unpredictable; and does ugly things to weapons alignment motors... besides possibly destroying components at extremely high heat levels. Don't even ask how evil ammo explosions can be. This is why keeping track of your 'Mech's heat level is such an important gunnery skill!

Movement & other effects:
Stationary +0
walked +1
ran +2
jumped +3
prone +2 (does not apply to quads)
skidding +1
sprinted - impossible to shoot while sprinting

Snap shots: (A no waiting on the T&T to get a good "fix" on the target indicated type of shot, the shot occurs so quickly that the 'Mech cannot torso twist or swing arms to align weapons arcs not already pointed at target)
While standing still +2
While on the move +3
While Jumping +6

Careful aim -1 to -3 (allowing your T&T computers a longer time to get a good "fix"- does not work with pulse weapons, cluster LBX rounds, or rapid-fire weapons firing more than one salvo.)
Bracing -2 (this is when you brace one of your 'Mech's arms on a structure to steady it, modifier only applies to weapons in braced arm).

... and there are more that could be listed for the 'Mechs, but this is enough and than some for right now.

---

How well a 'Mech can converge (concentrate its weapons fire into any given area) a single or all of its weapons onto a target.

This is the thing that's really been messed up in MW video games. It seems developers have so far thought that the pilots are the major factor in how well a 'Mech can converge it's weapons - which is wrong. Getting every weapon to hit a single section of a targeted 'Mech is a HARDWARE thing in the BTUniverse. Namely, if you don't have an Advanced Targeting Computer, your 'Mech won't be able to get its weapon or weapons to hit exactly what section you're aiming at on mobile targets. The advanced TC will be discussed a bit further down. There ARE also a set of hit-location tables that DO represent raw Mechwarrior Gunnery skill - the Called Shot tables. Those are discussed too. Also if a target is immobile any 'Mech, with or without an advanced TC, will be able to get more of it's weapons to concentrate onto a single area of a targeted 'Mech; this is an Aimed Shot.

BESIDES the Called Shot hit location tables that represent the pilot's gunnery skill, these hit-location tables represent the combat performance of THE BATTLEMECH.

So let's have an example; I'll work this out for a shot to the center of mass of the front of a targeted 'Mech.

Remember, this is just expressing the ability of the 'Mech to converge one or all of its weapons onto the area of the targeted 'Mech that the pilot has indicated, not weapons or pilot performance; and this is only for shots that have ALREADY been determined to have hit the targeted 'Mech.

The Basic hit-location table
This first set represents keeping the the reticule on the center of mass ("chest") of the front of the target 'Mech:

There's a 13.89% or 5 out of 36 chance of hitting the right arm
There's a 13.89% or 5 out of 36 chance of hitting the left arm
There's a 11.11% or 1 out of 9 chance of hitting the right leg
There's a 11.11% or 1 out of 9 chance of hitting the left leg
There's a 13.89% or 5 out of 36 chance of hitting the right torso
There's a 13.89% or 5 out of 36 chance of hitting the left torso
There's a 16.67% or 1 out of 6 chance of hitting the center torso
There's a 2.78% or 1 out of 36 chance of hitting the cockpit

What do all these percentages mean in the game? Well, in the DB, they're just pure numbers in a math equation, but for the player it could be expressed visually in the game manual or in training missions in color coded zones across the target to show how shots will concentrate, depending on what you're aiming at, so people could get a feeling for the combat capability of their 'Mech; and this would go for every type of hit-location table.

Here's the table that gives the data that the above is derived from:



And here's the hit-location table for 'Mechs lying on the ground (or quad 'Mechs):



Called Shot hit-location tables

These are the tables that represent how well a 'Mech's pilot can get their 'Mech to get it to put it's weapons fire into a smaller area of a targeted 'Mech. There are two tables: Call high-low, and Call left-right. Attempting to make a Called Shot adds another +3 to the to-hit number that must be overcome. This means that less of your shots will hit, but those that do hit will concentrate into a smaller area.

In game play terms, you "activate" the called-shot hit-location tables by aiming at specific parts of your target. For example, to use the "aim high" Called Shot table, you'd aim at the target's cockpit, neck, or extreme upper torso.

Called high:
There's a 16.67% or 1 out of 6 chance of hitting the:
Left or right arm, Left, right, or center front torsos, or the cockpit.

(Yes, this means that if anyone tells you that if you that if you aim at his cockpit, you can hit his foot ... they're wrong.)

Called Low:
A 33.34% chance of hitting the right leg
A 33.34% chance of hitting the left leg
A 16.67% or 1 out of 6 chance of hitting the right torso
A 16.67% or 1 out of 6 chance of hitting the left torso

Here's the table for Called Shots aimed high/aimed low.



For Called Shots Left or Right:
You use the normal hit-tables, except you have a +3 modifier, and you use the column one section over from where you would normally aim... for instance, if you call a shot left against a target standing directly in front of you ("in your front arc"), facing you , you use the "left" column on the basic hit table.



This table is used for calling shots Left/Right against a mech with it's front facing directly at you or it's back facing directly at you.

If your target's left or right side is facing you, and you want to aim left/right you use the Advanced hit table, posted above (which gives you a chance to hit their rear torsos).

It should be very obvious by now that the hit-location tables are VERY important. In fact, there is good reason to use the tables we already have as a standard baseline to construct more hit-tables to account for some situations which crop up in the video game format.

Aimed Shots

An Aimed shot is the occasion when a 'Mech without an advanced Targeting Computer can actually target specific locations against a target. Without a TC Aimed shots are only possible versus immobile targets, and only direct fire weapons and non-cluster ammunition types are usable for this.

The to-hit modifier for an immobile target is -4 (-5 if you have a TC) if you try and target any part other than the cockpit; cockpit aimed shots have a +3 to-hit modifier (A TC does not affect the cockpit to-hit). After it is determined how many of your shots connect, all weapons that roll a 6, 7, or 8 on 2d6 hit the location you've chosen. If you don't roll a 6,7, or 8 you don't automatically hit the specific location you aimed for. Instead, you roll on the appropriate normal hit-location table (yes, this can result in hitting the section you targeted anyways).

A 'Mech is considered immobile if it is shut down, it's pilot is unconscious, if it is bracing an arm to try and make a hard shot, if it is hooked to a coolant truck, or is having it's ammo reloaded. Quad 'Mechs that have lost 3 or 4 legs are considered immobile. A bipedal 'Mech that has lost both legs and both arms is considered immobile. "Immobile" equates to a unit not being able to move on it's own at all.

The Advanced Targeting Computer

This bit of hardware is a game-changer. It is a HIGH reward for big tradeoffs piece of hardware. Besides subtracting 1 from virtually all to-hit modifiers (including those for Called Shots), it allows your 'Mech to actually target specific locations on a mobile target!

A TC consists of an advanced computer that is far more powerful than the standard BattleMech T&T suite - it is able to adjust for many more variables far more quickly. A TC is not just an advanced computer suite, it also employs recoil compensators, gyroscopic stabilizers, and other hardware attached to the various direct-fire weapons systems mounted in a 'Mech. These components help to overcome weapons drift, muzzle recoil on kinetic weapons, and any erratic targeting inputs induced by the MechWarrior. The size and weight of a TC is directly proportional to the weight of all 'Mech-scale heavy weapons it is connected to. Inner Sphere TC's equal the total weapons weight divided by four, clan TC's divide by 5, and both take up a number of criticals (internal spaces) equal to the calculated tonnage of the TC (rounding up at half tons). Yes, they can get VERY heavy and large quite quickly... no free lunches!

In gameplay, having a TC allows you to make an Aimed Shot (not to be confused with a Called Shot) against *mobile* targets. The differences between a normal Aimed Shot vs an Immobile target and an Aimed Shot against a mobile target using a TC is that there is a +3 to-hit modifier, and it is not possible to target the cockpit on a mobile target. Otherwise, all of the other rules for an Aimed Shot apply. If my wonky math is correct, that's about 1 out of 4 shots that "make" their to-hit number will hit what you've aimed at, on average, which doesn't sound like much, until you consider that the best odds you can normally get otherwise are 1 out of 6 vs the center torso, or to hit a leg, when calling a shot low (when virtually all there IS to hit is a leg!). In practice, TC aimed shots vs mobile targets are very useful for chiseling a specific part off.

Using a TC to make a shot vs a specific location in game requires turning this function on. With this function off, a 'Mech with a TC behaves just like a 'Mech without one, except you have the advantage of a -1 to-hit modifier for most direct fire weapons types in the vast majority of situations.

---

So, what are the bonuses building the video game combat system this way? For one, it's possible put the stuff into a DB in the form of rules, which means its possible to control and predict what's going to happen, and to predict how new rules in the DB will modify gameplay. It allows the Devs to control how the combat will function in game - misses and hits with weapons can be made to visually (and otherwise) miss in ways that "Make sense." It gives the flexibility to tweak values in small amounts in order to get things "just right." It would also allow the use of the penetrating hits/internal components damage system from the TT combat system, which, with the addition of the advanced "critical hit" and critical damage rules behaves in an intuitive and predictable manner, while discouraging mindless rushing without making the game into an insta-death festival.

On the end user side - us sitting at our PC's, the advantages are that what's seen on screen behaves in a manner that makes sense and allows us to suspend disbelief ; BattleMechs actually perform like BattleMechs from the novels and the lore; Gunnery skill with a mouse and a cool head are rewarded, as is fore-thought and training; knowledge of the 'Mechs becomes useful and important (doubly so if the 'Mech "Quirks" from Strategic Ops are used); Knowledge of the weapons systems becomes important; new players aren't scared off, and veteran players have more things to pursue besides repetitive grinding for MC and the like.

Edited by blinkin, 28 August 2013 - 11:16 PM.

[blinkin]

and again for any newcomers here is the original version (i removed the first paragraph which was basically a sales pitch and contained nothing of substance beyond that i only ever increased font size or changed the font itself, bold, italics, underline, etc.). he has since changed it in response to my prodding. i will read the new version and see if anything meaningful actually changed, but i have my doubts :

Pht, on 29 November 2011 - 04:43 PM, said:

Physically, the main skill is the use of a joystick to indicate and track the desired target that one wants their 'Mech to try and hit, and the ability to pull trigger(s) exactly when necessary without disturbing one's aim. The joystick controls a firing reticule which is displayed on the main HUD in the cockpit. BTU 'Mechs are, by design, not allowed to target or track anything with the reticule or choose to shoot any weapon! Minor physical skills consist of the use of mode switches and, for example, configuring Target Interlock Circuits on the fly.

The three most important Mental gunnery skills are:

Knowing how the internal heat levels in your 'Mech will affect it's ability to aim, knowing if your 'Mech can make the shot you're indicating to it, and if you think it can make the shot, how long to let your 'Mech's Targeting and Tracking (T&T) computers calculate lead (weapons convergence) in order to hit the target being indicated and tracked by you. The decision on when to shoot or not shoot and how long let your T&T work on "a fix" is affected by other factors, which a good MechWarrior will take into account.

These factors consist of:
Choosing what weapons should be fired based on their rated battlefield ranges in relation to the distance to the target;

Knowing how the varying environmental and terrain types your 'Mech or a target is in will affect your 'Mech's ability to make the shot;

Choosing when to shoot based upon the target's behavior, for example, waiting until the target is relatively "still" enough in relation to your 'Mech's firing arc so that your 'Mech has an easier time making the shot;

Choosing what sort of movement you will be engaging in while asking your 'Mech to make a shot, for example, standing still while shooting, or running and shooting;

Choosing what types of weapons to fire based on their differing performance parameters i.e. ACs vs Gauss weapons, or pulse lasers vs normal lasers;

Choosing what types of ammo to use for ammo using weapons i.e., when to use LBX Cluster rounds vs LBX AC rounds;

Choosing firing modes for some weapons, for example, attempting to fire normal AC's in rapid fire mode, or rate of fire for Rotary ACs;

Knowing when engaging in an advanced firing mode is worth the tradeoff it requires (for instance, bracing an arm requires you to be immobile; Called Shots are harder to connect with, etc);

Knowing how the damage your 'Mech has taken will affect it's ability to make a shot (weapons can be degraded by taking damage, weapons in damaged arms might not align properly).

In case it's not already obvious, the 'Mech handles the calculation of how far to "lead" a target in order to hit the target that the MechWarrior is indicating with the reticule on his HUD. It is impossible for the MechWarrior to do these calculations anywhere near as fast or as precisely as the 'Mech's computer does them, and especially for multiple weapons types at once. YES, a 'Mech CAN align/converge all of its weapons, torso mounted or otherwise.

It should also be obvious that we can "do" all of these things with our computer peripherals - so there is no need to use and assign a "pilot gunnery skill" modifier in order to use the TT combat system and stats, and there should not be any in-game modifiers for pilot gunnery skill.

----

On to the nuts and bolts of how to "do" WFR!

The basic concept is to look at each weapon's listed TT performance and translate that into, say, a database format for the VG "engine" to work with, and also to look at how capable 'Mechs are at using those weapons in the TT and put that into the database, and any "quirks" that any individual 'Mech might have. Said DB is used in conjunction with whatever mechanic the game has for resolving where the firing and fired upon 'Mechs are and what way they are facing, what they were doing at the time of the shot, and where the targeting reticule in the firing 'Mech is placed at the time when the firing happens in order to handle WFR.

Things to know: plus modifiers ( + ) indicate things or conditions that make targets harder to hit. Negative modifiers ( - ) make it easier to hit targets. All to-hit modifiers are cumulative, and the total to-hit modifier is the number that must be equaled or surpassed when rolling two six-sided dice (2d6). Small Roller: http://www.fnordista...mallroller.html is an excellent program for calculating the effect that these modifiers have. As a rule of thumb, trying to hit anything that requires you to roll more than a six on 2d6 is a bad idea; just about half of your shots will miss on a 7. Just a little bit under 75% of your shots will hit "on a 6." The 'Mech actually indicates the to-hit number directly on the hud - it does it as color coding on the reticule; usually red for "poor targeting" (high to-hit modifier) to gold for "best targeting" (low to-hit modifier); along with audible cues.

The basic combat mechanic is to add up all of the to-hit modifiers, and than attempt to roll a number equal or higher than the total to-hit modifier on 2d6 for every weapon fired. Once it is determined which shots actually hit, the hit-location table appropriate for the situation is used to determine exactly what parts of the target your 'Mech was able to hit. The Hit-location tables are discussed in detail further down.

Now, onto how capable 'Mechs are of hitting the target indicated with their weapons

This describes the abilities of the 'Mech to handle it's weapons under varying conditions.

TARGET

Is:
Standing still -1
prone -2 from adjacent 30 meters, +1 from further out
Immobile -4
skidding +2
A Battle Armor +1
Aerofighter @ 12 high +1
Aerofighter otherwise +3
Secondary in fwd arc +1
secondary in other arc +2
Jumping +1(additional to other mods)
Flying non-aero +1
Sprinting -1
Evading +1 to +3, dependent on it's pilot's skill.

Is at:
Minimum range (minimum)-(target range)+1 (only for weapons with a minimum range, like ppcs)
Short range +0 - 100% of the shots hit
medium range +2 - 100% of the shots hit
long range +4 - 91.67% or 11 out of 12 shots hit
Extreme range +6 - 72.22% or 13 out of 18 shots hit
LOS range +8 - 27.78% or 5 out of 18 shots hit

Again, please note that this range table describes the capabilities of the 'Mech to overcome range effects on shots, NOT MechWarrior gunnery skill!

Target movement/ Target has moved (x) number of hexes:
Immobile -4 (Immobile =target CAN NOT move)
0 hexes moved -1 0 meters (standing still)
1-2 hexes moved +0 30-60 meters (10.8 to 21.6 KM/h - 6.7 to 13.4 mph)
3-4 hexes moved +1 90-120m (32.4 to 43.2 KM/h - 20.1 to 26.8 mph)
5-6 hexes moved +2 150-180m (54.0 to 64.8 KM/h - 33.5 to 40.2 mph)
7-9 hexes moved +3 210-270m (75.6 to 97.2 KM/h - 46.9 to 60.3 mph)
10-17 hexes moved +4 300-510m (108.0 to 183.6 KM/h - 67.1 to 114.0 mph)
18-24 hexes moved +5 540-720m (194.4 to 259.2 KM/h - 120.7 to 161.0 mph)
25+ hexes moved +6 750m (270.0 KM/h - 167.7 mph and up)

Yes, there are "range gaps" here; but the raw math data here can be plotted on a graph, so these "range gaps" can be "filled in," and if necessary, the raw velocities can be used to determine to-hit numbers, if that is easier for the back-end of the video game. This is an example where the exact form of the TT rules might not be the best to use, but the math expressed can still be used to get good results.

Target is in:
light woods +1
heavy woods +2
ultra heavy woods +3 (woods too dense for 'Mechs or protomechs to move through)
light jungle +1
Heavy jungle +2
Ultra heavy jungle +3 (woods too dense for 'Mechs or protomechs to move through)
Heavy industrial zone +1
Light smoke +1
heavy smoke +2
EM interference +2 (-2 cluster table)

This particular list could go on to insanity - there are many terrain and environment types that affect targeting.

SELF

Damage Effects:
Sensor hit +2
Shoulder hit +4 for weapons in arm, disregard all other damaged actuators in arm
upper or lower arm actuator (each) +1 for weapons in arm
Varying effects based on the Extended Critical Damage rules from Tactical Operations, from a +1 to-hit modifier to varying effects such as even worse to-hit modifiers, weapons jamming, or less damage output. .

Heat Effects:
0-7 +0
8-12 +1
13-16 +2
17-23 +3
24-32 +4
33-40 +5
41-47 +6
48 and higher +7

Yes, heat is EVIL! It makes the 'Mech's myomers sluggish, jerky, and unpredictable; and does ugly things to weapons alignment motors... besides possibly destroying components at extremely high heat levels. Don't even ask how evil ammo explosions can be. This is why keeping track of your 'Mech's heat level is such an important gunnery skill!

Movement & other effects:
Stationary +0
walked +1
ran +2
jumped +3
prone +2 (does not apply to quads)
skidding +1
sprinted - impossible to shoot while sprinting

Snap shots: (A no waiting on the T&T to get a good "fix" on the target indicated type of shot, the shot occurs so quickly that the 'Mech cannot torso twist or swing arms to align weapons arcs not already pointed at target)
While standing still +2
While on the move +3
While Jumping +6

Careful aim -1 to -3 (allowing your T&T computers a longer time to get a good "fix"- does not work with pulse weapons, cluster LBX rounds, or rapid-fire weapons firing more than one salvo.)
Bracing -2 (this is when you brace one of your 'Mech's arms on a structure to steady it, modifier only applies to weapons in braced arm).

... and there are more that could be listed for the 'Mechs, but this is enough and than some for right now.

---

How well a 'Mech can converge (concentrate its weapons fire into any given area) a single or all of its weapons onto a target.

This is the thing that's really been messed up in MW video games. It seems developers have so far thought that the pilots are the major factor in how well a 'Mech can converge it's weapons - which is wrong. Getting every weapon to hit a single section of a targeted 'Mech is a HARDWARE thing in the BTUniverse. Namely, if you don't have an Advanced Targeting Computer, your 'Mech won't be able to get its weapon or weapons to hit exactly what section you're aiming at on mobile targets. The advanced TC will be discussed a bit further down. There ARE also a set of hit-location tables that DO represent raw Mechwarrior Gunnery skill - the Called Shot tables. Those are discussed too. Also if a target is immobile any 'Mech, with or without an advanced TC, will be able to get more of it's weapons to concentrate onto a single area of a targeted 'Mech; this is an Aimed Shot.

BESIDES the Called Shot hit location tables that represent the pilot's gunnery skill, these hit-location tables represent the combat performance of THE BATTLEMECH.

So let's have an example; I'll work this out for a shot to the center of mass of the front of a targeted 'Mech.

Remember, this is just expressing the ability of the 'Mech to converge one or all of its weapons onto the area of the targeted 'Mech that the pilot has indicated, not weapons or pilot performance; and this is only for shots that have ALREADY been determined to have hit the targeted 'Mech.

The Basic hit-location table
This first set represents keeping the the reticule on the center of mass ("chest") of the front of the target 'Mech:

There's a 13.89% or 5 out of 36 chance of hitting the right arm
There's a 13.89% or 5 out of 36 chance of hitting the left arm
There's a 11.11% or 1 out of 9 chance of hitting the right leg
There's a 11.11% or 1 out of 9 chance of hitting the left leg
There's a 13.89% or 5 out of 36 chance of hitting the right torso
There's a 13.89% or 5 out of 36 chance of hitting the left torso
There's a 16.67% or 1 out of 6 chance of hitting the center torso
There's a 2.78% or 1 out of 36 chance of hitting the cockpit

What do all these percentages mean in the game? Well, in the DB, they're just pure numbers in a math equation, but for the player it could be expressed visually in the game manual or in training missions in color coded zones across the target to show how shots will concentrate, depending on what you're aiming at, so people could get a feeling for the combat capability of their 'Mech; and this would go for every type of hit-location table.

Here's the table that gives the data that the above is derived from:



And here's the hit-location table for 'Mechs lying on the ground (or quad 'Mechs):



Called Shot hit-location tables

These are the tables that represent how well a 'Mech's pilot can get their 'Mech to get it to put it's weapons fire into a smaller area of a targeted 'Mech. There are two tables: Call high-low, and Call left-right. Attempting to make a Called Shot adds another +3 to the to-hit number that must be overcome. This means that less of your shots will hit, but those that do hit will concentrate into a smaller area.

In game play terms, you "activate" the called-shot hit-location tables by aiming at specific parts of your target. For example, to use the "aim high" Called Shot table, you'd aim at the target's cockpit, neck, or extreme upper torso.

Called high:
There's a 16.67% or 1 out of 6 chance of hitting the:
Left or right arm, Left, right, or center front torsos, or the cockpit.

(Yes, this means that if anyone tells you that if you that if you aim at his cockpit, you can hit his foot ... they're wrong.)

Called Low:
A 33.34% chance of hitting the right leg
A 33.34% chance of hitting the left leg
A 16.67% or 1 out of 6 chance of hitting the right torso
A 16.67% or 1 out of 6 chance of hitting the left torso

Here's the table for Called Shots aimed high/aimed low.



For Called Shots Left or Right:
You use the normal hit-tables, except you have a +3 modifier, and you use the column one section over from where you would normally aim... for instance, if you call a shot left against a target standing directly in front of you ("in your front arc"), facing you , you use the "left" column on the basic hit table.



This table is used for calling shots Left/Right against a mech with it's front facing directly at you or it's back facing directly at you.

If your target's left or right side is facing you, and you want to aim left/right you use the Advanced hit table, posted above (which gives you a chance to hit their rear torsos).

It should be very obvious by now that the hit-location tables are VERY important. In fact, there is good reason to use the tables we already have as a standard baseline to construct more hit-tables to account for some situations which crop up in the video game format.

Aimed Shots

An Aimed shot is the occasion when a 'Mech without an advanced Targeting Computer can actually target specific locations against a target. Without a TC Aimed shots are only possible versus immobile targets, and only direct fire weapons and non-cluster ammunition types are usable for this.

The to-hit modifier for an immobile target is -4 (-5 if you have a TC) if you try and target any part other than the cockpit; cockpit aimed shots have a +3 to-hit modifier (A TC does not affect the cockpit to-hit). After it is determined how many of your shots connect, all weapons that roll a 6, 7, or 8 on 2d6 hit the location you've chosen. If you don't roll a 6,7, or 8 you don't automatically hit the specific location you aimed for. Instead, you roll on the appropriate normal hit-location table (yes, this can result in hitting the section you targeted anyways).

A 'Mech is considered immobile if it is shut down, it's pilot is unconscious, if it is bracing an arm to try and make a hard shot, if it is hooked to a coolant truck, or is having it's ammo reloaded. Quad 'Mechs that have lost 3 or 4 legs are considered immobile. A bipedal 'Mech that has lost both legs and both arms is considered immobile. "Immobile" equates to a unit not being able to move on it's own at all.

The Advanced Targeting Computer

This bit of hardware is a game-changer. It is a HIGH reward for big tradeoffs piece of hardware. Besides subtracting 1 from virtually all to-hit modifiers (including those for Called Shots), it allows your 'Mech to actually target specific locations on a mobile target!

A TC consists of an advanced computer that is far more powerful than the standard BattleMech T&T suite - it is able to adjust for many more variables far more quickly. A TC is not just an advanced computer suite, it also employs recoil compensators, gyroscopic stabilizers, and other hardware attached to the various direct-fire weapons systems mounted in a 'Mech. These components help to overcome weapons drift, muzzle recoil on kinetic weapons, and any erratic targeting inputs induced by the MechWarrior. The size and weight of a TC is directly proportional to the weight of all 'Mech-scale heavy weapons it is connected to. Inner Sphere TC's equal the total weapons weight divided by four, clan TC's divide by 5, and both take up a number of criticals (internal spaces) equal to the calculated tonnage of the TC (rounding up at half tons). Yes, they can get VERY heavy and large quite quickly... no free lunches!

In gameplay, having a TC allows you to make an Aimed Shot (not to be confused with a Called Shot) against *mobile* targets. The differences between a normal Aimed Shot vs an Immobile target and an Aimed Shot against a mobile target using a TC is that there is a +3 to-hit modifier, and it is not possible to target the cockpit on a mobile target. Otherwise, all of the other rules for an Aimed Shot apply. If my wonky math is correct, that's about 1 out of 4 shots that "make" their to-hit number will hit what you've aimed at, on average, which doesn't sound like much, until you consider that the best odds you can normally get otherwise are 1 out of 6 vs the center torso, or to hit a leg, when calling a shot low (when virtually all there IS to hit is a leg!). In practice, TC aimed shots vs mobile targets are very useful for chiseling a specific part off.

Using a TC to make a shot vs a specific location in game requires turning this function on. With this function off, a 'Mech with a TC behaves just like a 'Mech without one, except you have the advantage of a -1 to-hit modifier for most direct fire weapons types in the vast majority of situations.

---

So, what are the bonuses building the video game combat system this way? For one, it's possible put the stuff into a DB in the form of rules, which means its possible to control and predict what's going to happen, and to predict how new rules in the DB will modify gameplay. It allows the Devs to control how the combat will function in game - misses and hits with weapons can be made to visually (and otherwise) miss in ways that "Make sense." It gives the flexibility to tweak values in small amounts in order to get things "just right." It would also allow the use of the penetrating hits/internal components damage system from the TT combat system, which, with the addition of the advanced "critical hit" and critical damage rules behaves in an intuitive and predictable manner, while discouraging mindless rushing without making the game into an insta-death festival.

On the end user side - us sitting at our PC's, the advantages are that what's seen on screen behaves in a manner that makes sense and allows us to suspend disbelief ; BattleMechs actually perform like BattleMechs from the novels and the lore; Gunnery skill with a mouse and a cool head are rewarded, as is fore-thought and training; knowledge of the 'Mechs becomes useful and important (doubly so if the 'Mech "Quirks" from Strategic Ops are used); Knowledge of the weapons systems becomes important; new players aren't scared off, and veteran players have more things to pursue besides repetitive grinding for MC and the like.

[Pht]

For the newcomers; I already had the previous two versions linked at the very top of the post he's talking about; which he clearly has missed; easily opened in any web browser.

[Enigmos]

Also I would not support having your mech pick its targets and pull the trigger for you.

[Pht]

OriginalTibs, on 04 September 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

Also I would not support having your mech pick its targets and pull the trigger for you.

... NOBODY is proposing that.

Even blinkin has not accused me of this.

[RandomLurker]

I picked 'other'. I think convergence needs to be addressed in a big way, or Clan weapons will completely break the game when they come out. My own suggestion is to tie convergence to movement, which is sort-of a tabletop mechanic and a good tactical FPS mechanic as well. Detailed here: http://mwomercs.com/...point-solution/

[Scorpio Rising]

I like it the way it is now. I just assume that in 3050, the targeting systems on the mech are advanced enough to auto-converge the weapons on the target selected.

Just because a weapon is mounted on the torso doesn't mean that it can't move and that it doesn't have some slight mobility within that hard point to make minor elevation and windage adjustments as the mech's targeting system sees fit.

Ya, ya, lore and all that. Whatever.