256 replies to this topic

[HansBlix WMD]

xDeityx, on 08 July 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

Actually just being in a group and on comms doesn't automatically make you coordinated. You need skill for coordination.

Unskilled players are actually hurt by being on comms. Having VOIP is just one more thing that they have to deal with and many of them aren't trained in proper battlefield communication etiquette. I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone take a simple message like "2 heavies 1 light at Epsilon" and turn it into a rambling diatribe that hogs the communications and prevents you from hearing important in-game sound queues.

At higher Elo ratings both the premades and the pugs have coordination that comes naturally from having awareness of your surroundings. I've solo dropped onto teams where we've communicate with each other by how we maneuvered our 'mechs. Just establishing some "eye" contact and then charging after your team scores a long-range kill is enough of a "follow me" that nothing needs to be said.

The above paragraph is why I think that most of the complaints about premades are coming from players in lower Elo ratings who happen to see 4 players with the same House affiliation and assume a premade.

Just because there exist some really bad people using VOIP and some really good people not using VOIP does not prove that people using VOIP don't have an in-built advantage.

That's like saying that since there exist certain women who are stronger than certain men that women are stronger than men, on average.

All else being equal, the same players using VOIP will, on average, have a distinct advantage over the exact same players not using VOIP. The same is true for the community at large, on average.

[Deathlike]

xDeityx, on 08 July 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

Actually just being in a group and on comms doesn't automatically make you coordinated. You need skill for coordination.

Unskilled players are actually hurt by being on comms. Having VOIP is just one more thing that they have to deal with and many of them aren't trained in proper battlefield communication etiquette. I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone take a simple message like "2 heavies 1 light at Epsilon" and turn it into a rambling diatribe that hogs the communications and prevents you from hearing important in-game sound queues.

At higher Elo ratings both the premades and the pugs have coordination that comes naturally from having awareness of your surroundings. I've solo dropped onto teams where we've communicate with each other by how we maneuvered our 'mechs. Just establishing some "eye" contact and then charging after your team scores a long-range kill is enough of a "follow me" that nothing needs to be said.

The above paragraph is why I think that most of the complaints about premades are coming from players in lower Elo ratings who happen to see 4 players with the same House affiliation and assume a premade.

I don't subscribe to having VOIP (but it does wonders for teamwork)... but there really needs to be better in-game tools to improve teamwork like voice messaging (prerecorded voice message generation) to be able to direct PUGs to attack a certain coordinate or identify your current location... stuff that has been done in many FPSes (including MW4's single player campaign where you direct your AI teammates to do stuff). That's what's sorely missing.

PGI has slowly improved the interfaces, but they are still a weak far cry from being useful all the time and it doesn't help that newbies still don't know what some of the stuff means (blame lack of tutorial for most of that behavior). The tool for teamwork are not fully there, so that's really an issue that PGI has to resolve.

[Roland]

Deathlike, on 08 July 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

So, for the sake of argument that we have such queues.. and I can join both as I wish. Let's say that I rake in the solo queue just as much as the group queue (which is unlikely, but just humor me)... wouldn't people just be accusing me of just farming those people in the solo queue? It doesn't seem like it makes it any better... it just moves the qq to something different.

A number of elite players will solo for various reasons... but the problem then simply becomes that they are accused of farming the solo queue. That doesn't really fix the problem that the original idea intends to resolve.

What exactly are they gonna complain about?
That you are "too good" and that it's not fair that you should play against them? Despite having the same elo rating?

If you're not grouped, and are beating them simply by being better, I can't really see the merit to their complaint.

[xDeityx]

HansBlix WMD, on 08 July 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

Just because there exist some really bad people using VOIP and some really good people not using VOIP does not prove that people using VOIP don't have an in-built advantage.

That's like saying that since there exist certain women who are stronger than certain men that women are stronger than men, on average.

You're right! It's a good thing for me that's not what I was setting out to prove.

The post that I quoted was making the assertion that comms = coordination. This is not true, so I showed why.

HansBlix WMD, on 08 July 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

All else being equal, the same players using VOIP will, on average, have a distinct advantage over the exact same players not using VOIP. The same is true for the community at large, on average.

I agree that VOIP is an advantage in general. I disagree that it is much of one or "distinct." I've already gone over the proof for that claim in my previous posts in this thread. Mainly that Riot Games did a study of hundreds of thousands of League of Legends games to see exactly how much effect grouping up had on the game. They concluded that:

• Full-team pre-mades are only moderately stronger than solo queuers
  
• Partial pre-mades have only a slight advantage
  
• New players don’t benefit much from being in a pre-made, while experts benefit a lot

[HansBlix WMD]

xDeityx, on 08 July 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

You're right! It's a good thing for me that's not what I was setting out to prove.

The post that I quoted was making the assertion that comms = coordination. This is not true, so I showed why.






I agree that VOIP is an advantage in general. I disagree that it is much of one or "distinct." I've already gone over the proof for that claim in my previous posts in this thread. Mainly that Riot Games did a study of hundreds of thousands of League of Legends games to see exactly how much effect grouping up had on the game. They concluded that:

• Full-team pre-mades are only moderately stronger than solo queuers
  
• Partial pre-mades have only a slight advantage
  
• New players don’t benefit much from being in a pre-made, while experts benefit a lot

I'm not familiar with LoL's in-game communications suite. Tell me, does it share MWO's feature set:

1. Can't use the backspace key
2. Can't scroll up to see chat
3. No real time ping/warning mechanism
4. No in-game VOIP
5. Can't use the num pad enter to send chat
6. Team/lance messages are occasionally sent to all chat or repeated for no reason
7. Clunky command feature actually blocks the view of the minimap when used
8. No copy/paste functionality
9. Chat interrupted and/or repeated when transitioning from load to game, or from game to scoresheet
10. Movement requiring constant attention to throttle and bearing (thus making chat during any kind of engagement completely out of the question

No? Didn't think so. Maybe try finding a relevant study before you attempt to use it as "evidence".

[Deathlike]

Roland, on 08 July 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

What exactly are they gonna complain about?
That you are "too good" and that it's not fair that you should play against them? Despite having the same elo rating?

If you're not grouped, and are beating them simply by being better, I can't really see the merit to their complaint.

You can't assume the person on the other end has the same ELO than you do. That's the inherent problem.

Most of the complaints about the MM is not because of the integration of solo and premades... it's due to the disparity of skill. Sure premades generally have more skill, but that's not always true. You could put together a newbie premade group that doesn't exactly benefit as those that have played together much longer... they just happen to be people that play together. The biggest hue and cry from those not liking the MM is because they are not paired with people of similar skill (vets complaining about having to carry the 2 or 3 newbies in trial mechs on their team). It's easy for a newbie to complain about premades, even though they may be carrying one themselves (especially if they are a newbie premade from my example).

Again, the cries are really from a skill disparity... and some people (newbies and vets) make the mistake to blame the premades. That's just wrong on many levels.

[Disapirro]

Look xDeityx already settled the discussion, there is no problem with organized groups on voice comms taking advantage of the current system. No point in discussing further.

[Roland]

I think, in general, folks are less upset about losing to people who are better than them, than they are about losing to folks who had a perceived advantage over them in terms of being grouped up.

[Deathlike]

Roland, on 08 July 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

I think, in general, folks are less upset about losing to people who are better than them, than they are about losing to folks who had a perceived advantage over them in terms of being grouped up.

That is probably true, but it's more or less a lateral move if not another outright excuse.

If your teammates had around the same ELO level that you have, it's easier to laugh off the guy that is making excuses to why he lost. However, every match with the current MM can go in any direction because of the complete disparity in skill, causing a lot more roflstomps than there should be.

Edited by Deathlike, 08 July 2013 - 01:17 PM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Deathlike, on 08 July 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

That is probably true, but it's more or less a lateral move if not another outright excuse.

If your teammates had around the same ELO level that you have, it's easier to laugh off the guy that is making excuses to why he lost. However, every match with the current MM can go in any direction because of the complete disparity in skill, causing a lot more roflstomps than there should be.

I think your confusing that, there is just one single issue with MM.

which is not the case.

The premade vs solo issue needs to be resolved first, before you resolve the stupidity that is the elo system.

[xDeityx]

HansBlix WMD, on 08 July 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

I'm not familiar with LoL's in-game communications suite. Tell me, does it share MWO's feature set:

1. Can't use the backspace key-this is not a feature of MWO. Oh you're being hyperbolic and lying about the actual problem, which is that you can't hold down backspace and instead have to shift-home and delete or spam it. Yes, you can shift-home and delete in LoL as well.

2. Can't scroll up to see chat-Haven't played in a few months but when I stopped playing you could scroll up but every time someone said something on either team it auto-scrolled you back down so it was extremely hard to scroll up to what you actually wanted to see.

3. No real time ping/warning mechanism- MWO has a real-time ping/warning mechanism called the Company Commander, you should check it out. LoL has no commander but any teammate can ping the map or targets.

4. No in-game VOIP-LoL has no in-game VOIP.

5. Can't use the num pad enter to send chat-oh the humanity! I honestly have no idea because this one is such a non-issue

6. Team/lance messages are occasionally sent to all chat or repeated for no reason-I've never heard of a teamchat message being sent to all, sounds like user error to me. You are really stretching with this one eh?

7. Clunky command feature actually blocks the view of the minimap when used-LoL does not have the advantage of being able to have one person on the team designated as the commander.

8. No copy/paste functionality-not sure why this is useful. I have no idea if LoL has copy/paste functionality because I've never tried copy/pasting "help mid" or any other message. Is this really an issue to you? Wow.

9. Chat interrupted and/or repeated when transitioning from load to game, or from game to scoresheet-yes, chat is interrupted when transitioning to the scoresheet and when going from the game start screen to the loading screen

10. Movement requiring constant attention to throttle and bearing (thus making chat during any kind of engagement completely out of the question-yes, chatting in combat is impossible in league. Controlling your character requires way too much of your attention, if you try to chat while in an engagement you'd be totally screwed.

No? Didn't think so. Maybe try finding a relevant study before you attempt to use it as "evidence". Seems pretty relevant to me ^^.

Replied in-quote in italics.

[MischiefSC]

xDeityx, on 08 July 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

It specifically says the exact opposite actually, that they looked at teams of mixed new and veteran players:

The part which you are misunderstanding is just them acknowledging that in general players tend to team up with people of similar skill:

Here is an excerpt from the post from Riot you quoted:

xDeityx, on 08 July 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

If a player pre-makes, he joins up with people of approximately similar skill, and he is partnered with fewer random teammates boosting or impairing him, so his rating reaches an accurate value more quickly because more of each game result is due specifically to him and his friend(s), who are likely close in skill.

So in LoL you're going to be on a team of people of a similar level (say 30). The matchmaker in LoL will not only match by level but relative class strength in addition to a modified average of the Elo of the people in your premade team. That's a great way to go about it and because they up the difficulty for premades (they get a bump in their estimated level by dropping on a team) they get put in more challenging matches. THAT is what nullifies their advantage.

In MWO it's simply tonnage and your relative win/loss rate for that weight class. If one is an LRM boat and the other guy is all flamers they get the same value for weighting. My Elo is the same if I'm piloting a stock Dragon or if I'm out rampaging in my boomJag. Mech and loadout in MWO is far more significant than player skill - a spider with flamers piloted by a genius is still likely to get crushed by a mouth breather in a Jenner with Streaks.

That's also where relative player skill comes in and the difference in MWO vs games like LoL - also why I said LoL has more in common with WoW than MWO. Character classes with levels, skill trees and the like. MWO has nothing significant like that. Engine tweak, tiny adjustments to heat performance - taking a mech to master certainly gives some advantages but it doesn't create a 'build'.

If MWO used a BV system to influence the MM I'd be more inclined to agree with you. As it doesn't though the two have little in common.

xDeityx, on 08 July 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

And if you think about it for two seconds you'd realize that your claim is ridiculous. How and why would Riot ensure that all players who decide to team up with each other are the same skill? 0.o

I'm talking character level. See my prior response.

xDeityx, on 08 July 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

You're moving the goalposts now. It's one thing to claim as you did originally that premades consist of 4 assault 'mechs focus firing on a component. It's an entirely different thing to claim as you now do that a lot of premades drop in assaults and heavies.

You've clearly played competitively in MWO - see a lot of Dragons and Cents in 8mans? Competitive team play? Even moderately skilled teams anymore? You drop in a team much at all and your Elo gets to a point that you've got to bring the LRM/PPC fun or you're gimping your team. I'd stand by my statement that a lot of premades drop in heavies/assaults and coordinate fire - unless they're just playing for giggles.

xDeityx, on 08 July 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

I'm not sure how LoL suddenly became my game or how I am a cowboy, I guess we're just descending into ad hominem at this point. I guess it beats making a cogent argument.

So the part where you call me ignorant, we'll just skip over that? The part where you got all defensive about LoL and its matchmaking system, game depth, etc? Re-read your original post. It also missed the point of mine -

LoL matches not just by Elo but level and build. Hence, again, LoL and MWO matchmaking have nothing really in common save that they both also include weighting of the players win/loss rate. As to what they are balancing, no. Nothing in common nor does the value of premades in a 5-man LoL match acounting for character level, class and build in any way, shape or form really translate into 4-8 man premades in an 8v8 match that simply accounts for weight class (light/medium/heavy/assault) divorced from BV.

xDeityx, on 08 July 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

Nothing you said at all addresses my point, which was that LoL's popularity is orders of magnitude greater than MWO's. Instead you want to split hairs about which game is the most popular. It shows how weak your argument is.

No, pointing out that LoL isn't the end-all be-all on the topic. By all accounts they have a great matchmaker - for LoL. It wouldn't work for WoT or any other game in the same way it works for LoL, so again. Translation is irrelevant. That I drew attention to your bias towards LoL is just case in point for why you're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

xDeityx, on 08 July 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

In LoL you can kill an entire team in literally 1-2 seconds with well coordinated ultimates. I have no idea what level of games you've been watching but if you watch protatomonster's top 5 plays of the week youtube channel you can see things like this happen fairly regularly.

No, what I see are power builds exploiting weaknesses. It's not something that translates to the voice comm benefit of 4 players in MWO over pugs. There isn't a LoL tactical equivelent of hiding in a light and calling locations, tagging, coordinating sniper fire on a target of opportunity. It's a FPS vs a RPG style game.

xDeityx, on 08 July 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

You lost all credibility when you said LoL has more in common with WoW raids than MWO. You demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of LoL prior to that, but that was just the icing on the cake.

That you don't understand the difference makes it clear that you're not going to see how silly the concept is via a forum debate.

One is an RPG style game with levels, classes, skill trees, 3d person isometric view scroller - max 5 people on a team.

One is a FPS with widely divergent loadouts for mechs of different weights each swinging dramatically in value and game impact and designed to work in concert with other mech loadouts. Games are 8v8 with a max 4 person on a team - specifically before PGI said more than that made balance totally impossible even with an Elo system - so they built an 8v8 queue which died largely because competent 8 man teams with the right build and good coordination in voice were simply unstoppable and made it no fun to play because you either showed up in that one mech and played the same part again and again or you were a burden.

Get it?

Edited by MischiefSC, 08 July 2013 - 01:37 PM.

[MischiefSC]

xDeityx, on 08 July 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

I already solo queue quite a bit. This change would be the opposite of playing in a more competitive environment because then I wouldn't be matched agains the premades that you are so scared of.

Could it be that you are afraid of playing in the more competitive environment we currently have?

Smurfing is something that gets around Elo. The ability to abuse it does not depend on the maximum team size.

With Elo in place, we don't need a limit on queue size because any team running an organized 8-man tryhard comps will be at the top of the curve and will be fighting other teams running similar builds. If a solo player of average Elo runs into an 8-man premade it is because the players in the 8-man premade are terrible players who happen to be grouped up. With the introduction of Elo all you need to do is give a very slight penalty to the Elo rating of premades.

No. Tryhards will be just as likely to do what nets them emotional reward - wins - as they are hunting for competitive play. Competitive 8v8 was had but died because it was too competitive. People got used to an 80 or 90% win rate and want it. Smurfing and sandbagging would make the game exactly what it was before Elo came out.

xDeityx, on 08 July 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

The same place as the data saying you can't compare two relatively similar things. There's no reason you can't compare two games that all share an Elo rating system, premades vs solo queuers, and teamwork. We aren't comparing MWO and LoL in any of the areas in which they are different. They both share these three aspects, and that's all we are focusing on in this discussion.

And honestly you can compare anything you want. Who says you can't compare apples to oranges? They are of similar size but the apple is red or green and sweet compared to an orange which is more acidic. There, I just compared apples and oranges. Tada.

That you attempted to correlate the ability to ignore the obvious to create relations in comparison between apples and oranges pretty much answers everything. Your argument is that all the data PGI collected about premades vs pugs is clearly wrong and we should just pretend that matchmaking in LoL and MWO have anything in common and just do it like LoL does. Because, coincidentally, you play on a team and want the ability to drop 8mans vs pugs. Because you feel that will be perfectly challenging for you and result in a 50/50 win/loss rate.

A raise of hands from who's fooled here.

xDeityx, on 08 July 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

I pug as much as I team up. A lot of the time when I am solo I win more than when I'm in a group.

When the game only had one queue regardless of premade size I played with anywhere from around three to six guys who would regularly log in and play. Since the 4-man-only change was implemented that number has steadily dropped to where I'm lucky to find two other guys on.

People are leaving for a lot more reasons than just 'I want to group with more than 3 other people'. If people are leaving because they can't play in the group size they want.... I don't know what to tell you. I suspect it's a bit more than that.

xDeityx, on 08 July 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

The reality is that you lose because you're bad, not because of the big mean premades. I get that you have an agenda to dumb the game down so that the lowest common denominator can feel good about themselves but I'm not going to agree with you that we need to hold the hands of all the people too socially awkward to play with friends but want to delude themselves into thinking premades are the reason they aren't winning. There are plenty of good solo queue players who regularly get matched against and with premades and are doing just fine, me included.

You aren't getting your solo-only queue, that dead horse has already been beaten to death when they originally made the changes.

The ad hominem attempt to identify anyone who doesn't want to join make believe guilds to play big stompy robots with is somehow antisocial is a bit insulting. When it's not so miserable hot out I play games with my friends - in person. At the park. Football, toss the frisbee around, biking and jogging. I also do a lot of tabletop gaming - I'm not alone in that either. So I get my socialization in person with actual people. Many people have no desire or interest to join a pretend 'guild' with a bunch of strangers in an antisocial online environment just to play a game. We can get into the narcissistic nature of online social groups if you'd like and relative value of the socialization they provide vs direct human interaction, I'm very familiar with the topic. Seems pretty far afield though.

I do agree that premades vs pugs isn't a big cause of win/loss shifts. Have always said so. I'd play in a 'everyone' queue, I like pugging alongside teams. They often have a bit more of a plan.

That doesn't mean that a solo only queue is out of the question. The funny thing is that there really isn't a logical argument against it - aside from making wait-times for people in premades too long. If we get lobbies that are able to split out premades/pugs, let you set your lobby for solo only, what do you think will happen? Likely the same thing that happened with the 8man queue. People will ***** that it's too hard and that you can't play around, team vs team is too competitive.


Which essentially is a complaint that they want it easier, they want to play against people they have an advantage over. This is the same complaint since the beginning. This isn't about premade vs pug it's about limiting advantage. People with an advantage don't want to give it up and view any attempt to get out from under it as a threat to their fun.

Ghogiel, on 08 July 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

Is this one of these veiled the game is dieing (or going to) because premades are evil and steal all the fun?

I do my best to steal peoples fun when I'm dropping in premades, which I do passably often. That the game needs to be appealing to people who just want to come play, not socialize, isn't a mystery though. The fact is that most people don't want multiplayer. They put up with it when they have no choice but they don't want it. About 70% overall, closer to 90% when you sort out online casual games (like Farmville). Will those people migrate more happily into the multiplayer environment over time? Possibly, given the chance. You don't give them the chance though, have them feel like they're being picked on and you'll never find out.

[Screech]

After 7 pages has any argument against a solo queue besides "we don't have enough people" been made?

[Disapirro]

Just

Screech, on 08 July 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

After 7 pages has any argument against a solo queue besides "we don't have enough people" been made?

Just more of xDeityx saying how great his is and that everyone else is bad, bad, bad, bad. Oh, and how we are socially ackward for not joining his pretend clan/group thingie.

[Ghogiel]

Screech, on 08 July 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

After 7 pages has any argument against a solo queue besides "we don't have enough people" been made?

The devs basically said a premade queue needs (with odd sized groups) solo players to make match making work. It could restrict the number that can be in a premade to 8mans (or 12s) and it might work if enough people actually play in it. I doubt that will go down very well and could just end up being as awkward as the fifth wheel scenario or dead 8man queue we have now.

But ultimately yeah, it boils down to not enough people.

MischiefSC, on 08 July 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

I do my best to steal peoples fun when I'm dropping in premades, which I do passably often. That the game needs to be appealing to people who just want to come play, not socialize, isn't a mystery though. The fact is that most people don't want multiplayer. They put up with it when they have no choice but they don't want it. About 70% overall, closer to 90% when you sort out online casual games (like Farmville). Will those people migrate more happily into the multiplayer environment over time? Possibly, given the chance. You don't give them the chance though, have them feel like they're being picked on and you'll never find out.

70% of people not wanting to play multiplayer doesn't tell me how the game is dieing because evil premades.

[Major_Crash]

I really like and support Solo queue idea. At least, I want to see it implemented to test it before release and validate pros and cons. I have nothing against casual players playing with friends. What I don't like is dropping against coordinated 3 LRM boats with spotter, coordinated 4 PPC boats, coordinated 4 Atlai, coordinated wolf pack of lights ...

Regarding "everyone can join a TS" argument. I neither want nor like it. I tried playing with strangers in public TS for an hour to test the waters, did not like it much, won't do it again probably. Maybe if I had real life friends playing with me it would be a different thing, but unfortunately none of them playing.

Regarding community separation argument. There are two options: 1) add a solo queue and lose me to it; 2) don't add a solo queue and lose me because I stopped playing. Regardless, you eventually lose me anyway and, I guarantee, you cannot force me to play the game I don't like. Besides, I don't really care what kind of problems these "gg close" people will run into.

I don't mind waiting for 3 minutes for a match.

[MischiefSC]

Ghogiel, on 08 July 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

The devs basically said a premade queue needs (with odd sized groups) solo players to make match making work. It could restrict the number that can be in a premade to 8mans (or 12s) and it might work if enough people actually play in it. I doubt that will go down very well and could just end up being as awkward as the fifth wheel scenario or dead 8man queue we have now.

But ultimately yeah, it boils down to not enough people.



70% of people not wanting to play multiplayer doesn't tell me how the game is dieing because evil premades.

I never said the game was dying because of evil premades. I didn't even say it was dying. My original solution was lobbies that allow you to set weight limits on teams, ignore Elo and premade/solo indicator next to your name in stats in game along with the ability to set your game in the lobby as solo only if you want.

We had this argument many moons ago Ghogiel. I'm the guy who said premades were not the main problem, poor matchmaking was. I still think that's the case. xDietyx however came in with a completely incorrect attempt to associate LoL matchmaking with MWOs. A solo queue however would be a benefit, as it would be a draw to that 70%. If there's not going to be a single player version of the game at least one that minimizes the need to deal with the MP aspect of the game would be good.

This is worth saying - the push in the industry towards multiplayer has NOTHING to do with changing player preferences. It has to do with piracy. A MP-only game or online only is all but impossible to pirate. Diablo 3 as an example. Don't mistake a drive in modern games to require always-on internet connection and justify it with MP for a shift in player dynamics.

[Mudhutwarrior]

thalarg, on 08 July 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

I really like and support Solo queue idea. At least, I want to see it implemented to test it before release and validate pros and cons. I have nothing against casual players playing with friends. What I don't like is dropping against coordinated 3 LRM boats with spotter, coordinated 4 PPC boats, coordinated 4 Atlai, coordinated wolf pack of lights ...

Regarding "everyone can join a TS" argument. I neither want nor like it. I tried playing with strangers in public TS for an hour to test the waters, did not like it much, won't do it again probably. Maybe if I had real life friends playing with me it would be a different thing, but unfortunately none of them playing.

Regarding community separation argument. There are two options: 1) add a solo queue and lose me to it; 2) don't add a solo queue and lose me because I stopped playing. Regardless, you eventually lose me anyway and, I guarantee, you cannot force me to play the game I don't like. Besides, I don't really care what kind of problems these "gg close" people will run into.

I don't mind waiting for 3 minutes for a match.

Make that two. These guys don't want it to change because they earn doing what they do to pugs. Pretty obvious being their only argument is that it will divide. It would not though because then we get to know other players get them to join with us and move into teams. its a progression that the blind cant see. Blind on purpose I tend to beleive. I wont do teams until that happens if I last that long. Getting tired of it quicly now like the five I got to join and since left. Sure am not spending a dime at this point though I did in the past.

[No Guts No Glory]

Ghogiel, on 08 July 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

The one where match maker works best in a larger queue.

The ability to attract and retain a larger player base would make this a pretty moot point and honestly, how well does the MM really work for most people. The player base is seemingly already too small for it to work effectively.

Ghogiel, on 08 July 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

The devs basically said a premade queue needs (with odd sized groups) solo players to make match making work. It could restrict the number that can be in a premade to 8mans (or 12s) and it might work if enough people actually play in it. I doubt that will go down very well and could just end up being as awkward as the fifth wheel scenario or dead 8man queue we have now.

Simply give solo players the choice to drop into the group queue as filler if they wish. Let's not kid ourselves, lot's of solo's would drop into this queue with the hope of premades carrying them to victory. Solo's looking to join a clan/guild/whatever would likely drop into this queue too.

Or as has been suggested many times, simply put a same sized group on each side ( +/- 1 player ) with premade group indicators on the scoreboard. This would allow groups of any size to drop while also making matches " fair " . Indicators for premades will ideally silence the whole pugstomper whines as players will be able to clearly identify grouped players on each team, even if only at match end.

Alternately instead of putting a same size group on each side, simply have an ELO multiplier based on group size. Larger groups would fight higher ranked players, may not be as " fair " but likely far better than the current implementation.

Yes this is all too much to expect from PGI, just give me an Annihilator and I'll be happy.