256 replies to this topic

[DogmeatX]

I prefer to drop in a premade. That said I support there being a solo queue. If people sync drop to try to grief/abuse it, they need to be banned.

Not EVERYONE wants to/has time to/knows to look for premades or go on third party sites/voice comms servers. Quite a lot of gamers are just casuals who just want to play without necessarily being cannon fodder for organised groups of people.

Let them have a solo queue. Put more of the groups vs each other. Unsurprisingly though some of the easy mode stompers can't handle even the idea of going vs other organised groups and desperately try to discourage anything that might take away their easy mode...

[Boris The Spider]

No, what we have here is an anti-social self appointed majority who want to drive a wedge between group and solo players, they are happy to redefine the term casual player to basically just include themselves and new players and redefine anybody who doesn’t play alone as an organised house/unit. Two colleagues who meet up for a few rounds after work (Try-hard-premade) Father who groups up with his son (Try-hard-prmade) group of random people using a free public team-speak server (Try-hard-premade) The guy in a public training channel on team-speak, been in the game 2 days getting some help (Try-hard-premade)

They want the middle ground removed, the space that real casual players can occupy and reduce the game to two groups, solo dropping c-bill farmers and 12 man organised play, once this is accomplished, the step up from solo dropping to 12 man organised play becomes an insurmountable obstacle to new players.

This is why every time group player are brought up they paint the majority of groups as try-hard-premades, this is why they will do anything they can, come up with any lie or slight to discourage new players from joining a TS and this is why if you try to help new players get into said TS by posting the address up for them you get a load of abuse hurled at you. This is why they don't lobby for a new players base Elo to be lowered, this is why they don't lobby for integrated voice comm's. It is because they are not in it to help new players, they are in it to farm them, this whole pug-stomping BS is just projection.

If your Elo is low and you group, such as the case for the father grouping with his 12 year old son, they should be fighting against other low Elo players, even if that is mostly solo players. If you have no job, the twitch reflexes of a ninja and can devote 12 hours a day to playing MWO you should be playing with high Elo players, even if that includes groups.

[Galenit]

No Guts No Glory, on 08 July 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

Alternately instead of putting a same size group on each side, simply have an ELO multiplier based on group size. Larger groups would fight higher ranked players, may not be as " fair " but likely far better than the current implementation.

Suggest this month ago ....
If the Elo for each groupmember goes up with each member it would be best.
Not that much, around 2,5% for everyone in the group would be fit.

A 8man fighting 8 solo players each with a 20% higher elo sounds fair.
If the 8man has around 1500 elo , the 8 solos will be around 1800 then.
8 coordinated average players in a team against 8 elite solo players.

In the end, the real number needs longtime tweaking and testing.

Edited by Galenit, 09 July 2013 - 03:07 AM.

[armyof1]

Boris The Spider, on 09 July 2013 - 02:59 AM, said:

No, what we have here is an anti-social self appointed majority who want to drive a wedge between group and solo players, they are happy to redefine the term casual player to basically just include themselves and new players and redefine anybody who doesn’t play alone as an organised house/unit. Two colleagues who meet up for a few rounds after work (Try-hard-premade) Father who groups up with his son (Try-hard-prmade) group of random people using a free public team-speak server (Try-hard-premade) The guy in a public training channel on team-speak, been in the game 2 days getting some help (Try-hard-premade)

They want the middle ground removed, the space that real casual players can occupy and reduce the game to two groups, solo dropping c-bill farmers and 12 man organised play, once this is accomplished, the step up from solo dropping to 12 man organised play becomes an insurmountable obstacle to new players.

This is why every time group player are brought up they paint the majority of groups as try-hard-premades, this is why they will do anything they can, come up with any lie or slight to discourage new players from joining a TS and this is why if you try to help new players get into said TS by posting the address up for them you get a load of abuse hurled at you. This is why they don't lobby for a new players base Elo to be lowered, this is why they don't lobby for integrated voice comm's. It is because they are not in it to help new players, they are in it to farm them, this whole pug-stomping BS is just projection.

If your Elo is low and you group, such as the case for the father grouping with his 12 year old son, they should be fighting against other low Elo players, even if that is mostly solo players. If you have no job, the twitch reflexes of a ninja and can devote 12 hours a day to playing MWO you should be playing with high Elo players, even if that includes groups.

A long rant that could have been avoided if only you've read what's been suggested several times already, that solo players can choose to drop with mixed premade queue if they want to or in the only solo queue. So you can forget about the wedge now, how good is that. Or are you somehow against letting solo players choose to have their own queue?

[Boris The Spider]

armyof1, on 09 July 2013 - 03:08 AM, said:

A long rant that could have been avoided if only you've read what's been suggested several times already, that solo players can choose to drop with mixed premade queue if they want to or in the only solo queue. So you can forget about the wedge now, how good is that. Or are you somehow against letting solo players choose to have their own queue?

And if they choose not to? I don't have a problem dropping solo at the minute, I consider it vastly easier than dropping with a 4 man group and I use it level up bad mechs or just if I'm not firing on all cylinders. You dangle an extra-easy mode in front of me, why wouldn't I take it? This choice would make matchmaking all but impossible for small casual groups and segregate MWO into two separate games.

[armyof1]

Boris The Spider, on 09 July 2013 - 03:18 AM, said:

And if they choose not to? I don't have a problem dropping solo at the minute, I consider it vastly easier than dropping with a 4 man group and I use it level up bad mechs or just if I'm not firing on all cylinders. You dangle an extra-easy mode in front of me, why wouldn't I take it? This choice would make matchmaking all but impossible for small casual groups and segregate MWO into two separate games.

Now you're just making things up, easier playing solo than in 4-man premade? You must play with horrible team-mates then.

[Boris The Spider]

armyof1, on 09 July 2013 - 03:20 AM, said:

Now you're just making things up, easier playing solo than in 4-man premade? You must play with horrible team-mates then.

armyof1, on 09 July 2013 - 03:20 AM, said:

Now you're just making things up, easier playing solo than in 4-man premade? You must play with horrible team-mates then.

No, its down to the matchmaker, when I drop in a 4 man group there are almost always 4 man groups I recognise on the other side, often there are two, sometimes they are sync-drops. When I drop solo, I dont see anywhere near as many recognisable groups and when I do have a 4 man group on my side I can still effectivley work with them without VOIP so I get little disadvantage from playing solo.

This is not uncommon.

[No7]

Lobby system ftw.

Even the god awful lobby that some game has had at launch/open beta, they at least knew that they had to have one.

For some reason PGI didn't think it important.

[armyof1]

Boris The Spider, on 09 July 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

No, its down to the matchmaker, when I drop in a 4 man group there are almost always 4 man groups I recognise on the other side, often there are two, sometimes they are sync-drops. When I drop solo, I dont see anywhere near as many recognisable groups and when I do have a 4 man group on my side I can still effectivley work with them without VOIP so I get little disadvantage from playing solo.

This is not uncommon.

That just is not true at all, matchmaker has never balanced out premades between teams, it just tosses them in there at random so you could get 2 premades in one team and all solos in the other as much as premades in both teams. And you Elo does not change from when you're in a premade or not, so you'll be matched in the same manner even when solo.

Edited by armyof1, 09 July 2013 - 03:44 AM.

[Boris The Spider]

armyof1, on 09 July 2013 - 03:44 AM, said:

That just is not true at all, matchmaker has never balanced out premades between teams, it just tosses them in there at random so you could get 2 premades in one team and all solos in the other as much as premades in both teams. And you Elo does not change from when you're in a premade or not, so you'll be matched in the same manner even when solo.

Going to need a source for that.

[armyof1]

Boris The Spider, on 09 July 2013 - 03:46 AM, said:

Going to need a source for that.

You claim matchmaker does something that no dev has ever claimed it does, and you ask for a source from me? Are you kidding me?

[Boris The Spider]

armyof1, on 09 July 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

You claim matchmaker does something that no dev has ever claimed it does, and you ask for a source from me? Are you kidding me?

No, I reported an observation of my play experience and that of people I have talked to, your the one stating something is a fact.

[Hauser]

Boris The Spider, on 09 July 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

No, its down to the matchmaker, when I drop in a 4 man group there are almost always 4 man groups I recognise on the other side, often there are two, sometimes they are sync-drops. When I drop solo, I dont see anywhere near as many recognisable groups and when I do have a 4 man group on my side I can still effectivley work with them without VOIP so I get little disadvantage from playing solo.

This is not uncommon.

Boris The Spider, on 09 July 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

No, I reported an observation of my play experience and that of people I have talked to, your the one stating something is a fact.

I think that would be Elo at work. The players in a pre-made are usually pretty good due to their coordination. As a result they get a higher Elo score then players who mostly play solo. As the match maker is looking for people with comparable Elo, this results in premades being matched with and against each other.

edit:

There is a with people who play both solo and premade. Their Elo will constantly be in flux between the appropriate value for playing with a premade and playing solo. As such I hope PGI increases the Elo value of a premade a bit to account for the added coordination.

Edited by Hauser, 09 July 2013 - 04:11 AM.

[Ghogiel]

MischiefSC, on 08 July 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

Multiplayer blew up on the PC. Mplayer and Ultima Online really drove it originally and from there FPS games with a multiplayer option grew out based on the marketing concept that multiplayer players drew in more non-pirated copies - you couldn't play a pirated copy online on the official servers with your friends without getting caught.

They had huge selling multiplayer games on consoles before people really even had internet. I'm talking mario kart in the early 90's and console adding 4 joystick ports as standard or multitap addons. Ultima online is like 5 years late to the party.

Edited by Ghogiel, 09 July 2013 - 04:09 AM.

[armyof1]

Boris The Spider, on 09 July 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

No, I reported an observation of my play experience and that of people I have talked to, your the one stating something is a fact.

I base my it on the dev notes released about Elo used in MWO and in nowhere is there mentioned premades being balanced evenly between teams. The reason you see more premades when in 4-mans could be because your team-mates have a higher Elo, so the match being set up is with higher ranked players, which means there are more other premades in the match.

Edited by armyof1, 09 July 2013 - 04:17 AM.

[Boris The Spider]

Hauser, agree 100%. If the matchmaker can be made to balance teams out better in any way, that would be a change I would fully support. Tonnage is the real killer at the minute though, teams without a brawler are getting mauled by teams with one.

Armyof1, I'm not trying to decipher how the match maker works, I'm just saying that it provides me with a good match either in 4 man or solo drops, and if I'm solo dropping I don't have to play at anywhere near as high a level to produce a win as I do in a 4 man and that this is not uncommon.

[Lykaon]

Sigifrid, on 07 July 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

We have been over this. The answer is no. We do not need the queue split any further than it will be, especially with the 3rd person view (crap) coming.

This is the main reason I am opposed to any more segregation in the player base.

There will always be players losing to other players and of course making suggestions about how the game mechanics can be coopted to help boot strap the losing players.

Eventually we will have ques all over the place with not enough players in any one que to make a match.

Also,I am really starting to think that people making these suggestions fail to even consider what it really means.

Only solo que so solos will only ever fight solos.

So grouped players need to be in a group only que? what about math?

Solo is 1+1+1+1+1+1 etc so real easy to match

Groups may be 8+6+12+2+4+7 not so easy to match with group sizes being 2-12 players.

The irony is the game's initial design goal was groups of 2-12 vs groups of 2-12 and solos filling in the gaps where groups didn't match in numbers.Now solos want to further partition groups so they can solo it up in what is in all honesty the keystone cops of mechwarrior,the solo que.

[armyof1]

Boris The Spider, on 09 July 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

Armyof1, I'm not trying to decipher how the match maker works, I'm just saying that it provides me with a good match either in 4 man or solo drops, and if I'm solo dropping I don't have to play at anywhere near as high a level to produce a win as I do in a 4 man and that this is not uncommon.

The dev notes about Elo are not hard to understand really, it just takes a little time to read through it. As for your having it easier to win playing solo, frankly that pretty much goes against all I've read and seen myself regarding solo vs premade.

Edited by armyof1, 09 July 2013 - 04:30 AM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Funny how the loudest opponents I see steamrolling in the game on a regular basis.. Really how dumb do you think we are? No one is calling to stop premades just give solos the option. Call it an expiriment to see what increases membership and gameplay?

You founders created this mess yourselves. This has been posted about for a long time and I remmber going back if any solo dared to mention premade steam rolling,sych drops or anything else that ran counter to the team thing they got steam rolled an ridiculed of the forum. Well you failed because its reaching critical mass and the honest founders are coming forward with what they see as the problem also. None of you did a thing to stop steamrolling and only complain about what bothers your teams like alphas and cheese builds. Adding and retaining new players is in PGI's best interests and they are starting to see that. A large number want to just enjoy the play. We dont want to be the best in scoring, have funny things on our dashboards or wear fictional hats of some clan. We want to build mechs and fight them with our peers. There is a reason you dont see white kids running alone through black gang territory. Or bikers wearing their colors riding solo in another gangs area. Its stupid and pointless and serves no purpose. That is reality but your asking us to enjoy just that. Enough with excuses and lets use some common sense.

Any founder who says there is no problem is hiding from reality. Either blind or blind on purpose. I guess we will decide how we see it. Its not like any of us are afraid of getting killed by a better player its just we have no idea if they are better when four of them target you. Generally in my veiw they are not. They just can call targets instantly change direction in a flash and direct everyone elses fire. Solos can't without exceptional delay.. Level it up and stop hiding. If you want to be the swat team bashing doors and killing unarmed people in the wee hours do the work to join a real one. This is a profit center and the final decision is with PGI not you. They are aware of it by now I am sure. The stomping of their staff sure started the discussion.

[Disapirro]

Lykaon, on 09 July 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

There will always be players losing to other players and of course making suggestions about how the game mechanics can be coopted to help boot strap the losing players.

Not that it matters, but I have a 1.21 win/loss ratio as a 100% pug player with 1300+ drops since ELO started. This is probably not the greatest performance, but certainly not losing more than winning. So that is not the issue. What drove me to bring this topic up is, just guessing here cause I have not really kept track, the every few rounds or so when it appears to me that one team has some advanced coordination and the other does not and it ends very quickly and badly for the one that does not.

Lykaon, on 09 July 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

Also,I am really starting to think that people making these suggestions fail to even consider what it really means.

Only solo que so solos will only ever fight solos.

So grouped players need to be in a group only que? what about math?

Solo is 1+1+1+1+1+1 etc so real easy to match

The suggestion was not to take away the ability to drop solo in the group queue, but add an option that may make for a more balanced experience for the more casual player, or hopefully the newer player.

Edited by Disapirro, 09 July 2013 - 04:43 AM.