65 replies to this topic

[HansBlix WMD]

IceSerpent, on 09 July 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

You will get a miniature lightning bolt and can possibly damage (melt part of) the screwdriver if the capacitor is large enough. Nothing overly catastrophic.

The amount of energy stored in the capacitor is 1/2 * C * V^2, c = capacitance and v = voltage. If you close the circuit with close to 0 resistance, you will release that energy almost instantaneously. How catastrophic it is depends on how much energy there is. If it's enough to fire a PPC, I'm fairly certain there would be some kind of mini-catastrophe on board the mech.

IceSerpent, on 09 July 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

Yes, I meant electrolytic, sorry about the typo. No, I was not talking about batteries. Just google it if you are curious - it's one of the capacitor types (looks like a small metal cylinder with two connectors sticking out of one end of it).

Cool, thanks I'll check it out.

[zraven7]

Prosperity, I like your idea, but it unfortunately does nothing for ERPPCs. If a portion of the "under-90" damage was returned to mech firing, then either ERPPCs would need to have their heat and their cooldown time significantly increased, or, well, they could be the ones that blow up.

Also, having the PPC take damage from overheat is good, though I've long been a proponent of mech internals taking significant damage each and every time you overheat, period. If each time you overheated, your internal condition dropped an entire color level, people would start being more careful. This is also canon. In every novel, pilots are absolutely terrified of even getting to maximum heat threshold, let alone surpassing it, because they are afraid they could fry their mech, cook off their ammo, or even bake themselves.

[MrMasakari]

zraven7, on 10 July 2013 - 04:30 AM, said:

Prosperity, I like your idea, but it unfortunately does nothing for ERPPCs. If a portion of the "under-90" damage was returned to mech firing, then either ERPPCs would need to have their heat and their cooldown time significantly increased, or, well, they could be the ones that blow up.

Also, having the PPC take damage from overheat is good, though I've long been a proponent of mech internals taking significant damage each and every time you overheat, period. If each time you overheated, your internal condition dropped an entire color level, people would start being more careful. This is also canon. In every novel, pilots are absolutely terrified of even getting to maximum heat threshold, let alone surpassing it, because they are afraid they could fry their mech, cook off their ammo, or even bake themselves.

This^^.

Quite frankly if someone is firing 4 PPCS at once and constantly overheating, they should take damage from it. It would certainly force people to think wisely before alphastriking continuously, especially if it means they could blown their own 'Mech up from doing it, which as Zraven7 said is actually canon. Seems like a winwin situation really.

[Ph30nix]

im still of the opinion that the majority of the reason the PPC is so good is because most of the other weapons are such utter crap.

[MrMasakari]

Ph30nix, on 10 July 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

im still of the opinion that the majority of the reason the PPC is so good is because most of the other weapons are such utter crap.

Haha, thats actually a very interesting way of looking at it. There are quite a few weapons still meaning to be brought up to par I have to agree. The LBX is lacking alongside large pulse lasers, but PPCs are superior because the Devs made them that way, which they will soon rectify hopefully. I could go into why they are lacking in comparison but I think most people know the details.

[zraven7]

Ph30nix, on 10 July 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

im still of the opinion that the majority of the reason the PPC is so good is because most of the other weapons are such utter crap.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the other weapons are crap, by any means. They just require a bit more skill and finesse than the PPC.

AC20 - high damage, low ammo. Have to make shots count, but can change a match.

UAC5 - bit of a gamble, but very high DPS, especially when run in multiples. A staple for ballistic brawlers.

GAUSS - also a gamble, but in a different way. Still, high damage at high range with high projectile speed. Also limited ammo, though

SRM6 - when paired with artemis, much more devastating than people realize. Some of my highest damage matches have been with my SRM Trebuchet.

SSRM2 - bane of lights, and much better against larger mechs than a lot of people realize,

medium laser - ton for ton, possibly the best weapon in the game. 1 slot, 1 ton, 5 damage for 4 heat, good range, no ammo worries. It's a filler weapon that is worth it.

Plenty of the other weapons are good in the right circumstances or on the right mech, as well.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

The problem with buffing other weapons is we are already basically insta-gibbing eachother.

Do we really want to die faster?

If nothing else, lower the damn heat cap and increase dissipation.

Lets see what that does.

Make some real changes instead of the BS we've seen up till now.

[zraven7]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 10 July 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

The problem with buffing other weapons is we are already basically insta-gibbing eachother.

Do we really want to die faster?

If nothing else, lower the damn heat cap and increase dissipation.

Lets see what that does.

Make some real changes instead of the BS we've seen up till now.

That would allow for normal use of energy weapons while only penalizing people pushing to 90% plus with each alpha...

Wow. Yeah, I agree with Nic. That might do it.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

zraven7, on 10 July 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

That would allow for normal use of energy weapons while only penalizing people pushing to 90% plus with each alpha...

Wow. Yeah, I agree with Nic. That might do it.

They already poo poo'd it in an ATD. But they only addressed lowering the heat cap, not increasing dissipation.

I don't think they really thought through the question.

My big hope at this point, is that they release the public test realm, and try stuff like the above.

Otherwise we are in trouble.

[Mizore]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 09 July 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

terrible idea. the gauss changes hardly matter, dual gauss k2 is completely unaffected.

And the K2 was the only reason they nerfed the Gauss... so sad... now every other mech that mounts a Gauss in its sidetorso has to pay the bill for that ****** gauss nerf.

Wanna try the Atlas-7K in it's standard config?
It's a walking bomb, because of XL-engine and Gauss...

At the beginning of open beta I could kill half of the enemy team... now I'm dead within the first 2 minutes of a match, mostly because of the Gauss nerf and the current PPC meta.
PGI balancing really is sooooo awesome... NOT!!!

Edited by Mizore, 10 July 2013 - 05:46 AM.

[ClaymoreReIIik]

I think the main issue with the PPC/ERPPC builds is they do not have an explicit "counter-strategy".

If you look at pure damage on long range the gauss, ppc and LRMs are pretty much on par.

If you see a gauss-heavy mech on the other side your strategy is "open the gauss location and watch it go boom".
If you see an LRM-heavy mech on the other side your strategy is "get under 180 meters and eat him while he cannot fight back".

Whats the heavily pronounced option to fight a PPC-heavy mech? Get under 90 meters? Since the decline in damage is linear its more like "get under 45 meters". Thats not really a viable counter at all.

Whats the drawback of the PPCs? It is heat. Canon talks of PPCs being incredibly hot. Canon talks of field inhibitors that prevent PPCs from firing under minimum range.

I really really like Prosperity Parks idea of feedback as a balancing mechanism. I do not like the idea to let that feedback from min range firing be damage. That seems to be too much punishment and its going to cause too much frustration from firing into hidden corners.

I would increase the min Range by 30% to 120 meters and let the feedback be heat. There is no need to damage the mech if it shoots under min range. You seriously punish lighter/faster builds with that unnecessarily. As people mentioned there are too many "hidden corners" on the maps to make this viable right now.

If the feedback from the PPC shot under min range is heat, you could apply that to ER PPCs as well. Let the ER PPC do full damage, but let it get its punishment by heat-buildup just as much as the normal PPC. If you shoot at 60 meters distance you do your full damage but you get a 50% additional heat.

Most Mechs with a "sane" amount of 2-3 PPCs will be able to handle the additional heat. 4 PPCs updwards will generate so much heat though that they directly blast into the shutdown and the possible CT-damage from being overheated badly.

So there is your strategy against PPC-builds. You close in, make the guy overheat and then kick his head in with 2-3 aimed shots at a shutdowned mech.

Edited by ClaymoreReIIik, 10 July 2013 - 06:03 AM.

[IceSerpent]

HansBlix WMD, on 09 July 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

The amount of energy stored in the capacitor is 1/2 * C * V^2, c = capacitance and v = voltage. If you close the circuit with close to 0 resistance, you will release that energy almost instantaneously. How catastrophic it is depends on how much energy there is. If it's enough to fire a PPC, I'm fairly certain there would be some kind of mini-catastrophe on board the mech.

You are missing a small detail - namely, what all that energy is applied to. If voltage in the circuit doesn't change (and in this case it doesn't - capacitor just like a battery outputs whatever voltage it's rated for) and resistance is very small, current (amps) in th circuit jumps sky high due to Ohm's law: U (volts) = I (amps) * R (ohms). This causes whatever conductor you used to close the circuit to heat up very rapidly due to Joule's first law: P (power) = I^2 (amps) * R (ohms) and most likely to melt (depends on the energy stored in the capacitor and material of the conductor). So, the most you'll get in terms of mini-catastrophe would be droplets of molten metal flying around.

[zraven7]

IceSerpent, on 10 July 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

You are missing a small detail - namely, what all that energy is applied to. If voltage in the circuit doesn't change (and in this case it doesn't - capacitor just like a battery outputs whatever voltage it's rated for) and resistance is very small, current (amps) in th circuit jumps sky high due to Ohm's law: U (volts) = I (amps) * R (ohms). This causes whatever conductor you used to close the circuit to heat up very rapidly due to Joule's first law: P (power) = I^2 (amps) * R (ohms) and most likely to melt (depends on the energy stored in the capacitor and material of the conductor). So, the most you'll get in terms of mini-catastrophe would be droplets of molten metal flying around.

Well, a large chuck of metal flash-melting in your mech could certainly do internal damage. Also, many theoretical PPCs included a de-ionizing agent that the "projectile" passed through as it was fired. Could a malfunction with that component cause a premature dispersal of projectile energy? Like, in the barrel?

[Stewbawl]

i think forced ejection from your mech upon excesive overheating would be a good way to balance PPC boating. i posted this in another topic and thought i'd throw it on here as well.

this could also be a great way to solve the PPC boating people are complaining about. what if there was a % chance depending on how heavily you overheat that your pilot automatically ejects? i only played tabletop a few times but wasn't it possible that you could overheat to the point of cooking the pilot to death? PPC boaters run that fine line of trying to stay just under the shutdown limit, and eventually they are lingering right around 95+% and they fire off an alpha when they shutdown. i think it would curb that behavior pretty well and fast if there was a chance it would end the match for them. and it fits right in with the immersion of everything, you got too hot and had to eject to save your life.

as an example. we overheat at 100%? lets say every time you exceed this you have a base chance of 10% plus 1% per percentage you exceeded that. if you fail the roll you get ejected, if you pass you just get shutdown. for instance, i'm at 93% and i alpha and it bumps me up to 127% heat. that means i have a 37% chance to get ejected and a 63% chance to get shutdown. this is just a soft suggestion but i like it.

[CutterWolf]

Easy way to blance PPC's is to put there heat closer to TT values.

PPC TT heat = 10, MWO = 8
ERPPC TT heat = 15, MWO = 11

Battletech Description:
Description

The Particle Projector Cannon (or PPC) is a unique energy weapon. PPCs fire a concentrated stream of protons or ions at a target, causing damage through both thermal and kinetic energy. As such, despite being an energy weapon, it produces recoil. The lethality of the weapon rivals that of a higher-caliber autocannon; just three shots from a PPC will vaporize two tons of standard military-grade armor. Targets hit by multiple, simultaneous PPCs can also suffer electrical side-effects, such as overloaded computer systems or targeting sensors. The ion beam also extends to much farther ranges than autocannon fire, though PPCs generate large amounts of waste heat.
PPCs are equipped with a Field Inhibitor to prevent feedback which could damage the firing unit's electronic systems. This inhibitor degrades the performance of the weapon at close ranges of less than 90 meters. Particularly daring warriors have been known to disengage the inhibitor and risk damage to their own machine when a target is at close range.

Description

First introduced in 2760 by the Terran Hegemony, the Extended-Range Particle Projector Cannon, or ER PPC for short, has a greatly increased range than that of a standard PPC. Capable of causing extreme damage at long range, it unfortunately generates a tremendous amount of heat, and so can be difficult to use effectively. The ER PPC is also noticable for having no minimal range.
After becoming lostech during the Succession Wars, the ER PPC was first reintroduced to the Inner Sphere in 3037 by the Draconis Combine. By this point the Clans had greatly refined the weapon, with slight reductions in size and weight, but most notably boosting its damage by fifty percent, making it capable of shaving off almost a ton of armor in a single hit. Despite the best efforts of the Great Houses, none have been able to successfully replicate this increase, though their efforts have resulted in the Heavy PPC which matches the damage potential (and heat) of the Clan weapon and has also lead to devices such as the PPC Capacitor that can emulate the increase to a degree.

There is no need at all to reduce its speed since it is the one factor that upping made since to do. It was because of that PPC's finely start hitting and doing reliable damage.

Put them at their TT heat levels and PPC boating will be a thing of the passed. But, if they do that PPC's will need to do something that they should already be doing to "every" Mech "Targets hit by multiple, simultaneous PPCs can also suffer electrical side-effects, such as overloaded computer systems or targeting sensors." Instead of just effecting ECM.

Edited by CutterWolf, 10 July 2013 - 11:27 AM.

[Andross Deverow]

I dunno about having PPC blow up but they could definitely melt and be useless if overheated too much, say maybe if they overheated during PPC fire more than 3 times in a match any given PPC would meltdown and be useless the rest of the match? Or even destroyed and need to be replaced?

Regards

Edited by Andross Deverow, 10 July 2013 - 01:15 PM.

[IceSerpent]

zraven7, on 10 July 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Well, a large chuck of metal flash-melting in your mech could certainly do internal damage. Also, many theoretical PPCs included a de-ionizing agent that the "projectile" passed through as it was fired. Could a malfunction with that component cause a premature dispersal of projectile energy? Like, in the barrel?

Well, that huge chunk of metal to melt would be the projectile that damaged PPC to begin with (assuming that your mech is not infested with gremlins that stick screwdrivers into every capacitor they see), so it's unclear whether flash-melting would increase or decrease damage.

[HansBlix WMD]

IceSerpent, on 10 July 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

Well, that huge chunk of metal to melt would be the projectile that damaged PPC to begin with (assuming that your mech is not infested with gremlins that stick screwdrivers into every capacitor they see), so it's unclear whether flash-melting would increase or decrease damage.

Well I'm sure we won't have got completely rid of mysterious bug-causing gremlins in large machines by 3050, so we probably shouldn't assume them away!

Seriously though, not only are you going to heat up the circuit closing element, you're probably also going to cause arcing, assuming you exceed the arc potential of whatever air is inside the PPC, which can melt other things, start fires, etc. It's not a stretch to say that closing a massive capacitor powered by a fusion engine is a Bad Idea.

[Prophetic]

Add three tons to the weight of PPCs and your problem is solved. Small mechs won't be able to afford them and bigger ones won't be able to mount all those sinks.

[Khobai]

PPCs don't need to blow up. They just need to not converge on the same hit location.