98 replies to this topic

[Tombstoner]

Not sure if it was mentioned before but LRM's can be dumb fired into a pack encased in ECM. you dont need TAG. its not the best solution since it needs LOS and your basically dead in that case.

[Kitane]

I can't blame OP for unhappiness with ECM and the forced requirement to use TAG. My favorite ride is C4 and being forced to use Tag means I'm left with one medium laser. One! Don't get me started on A1...

It is infuriating to watch PGI's completely screwed up implementation of Guardian ECM while knowing that it is not supposed in any form to prevent locking and firing of LRMs and SSRMs. It's an invincibility shield PGI pulled out of their a***s and now they are too stubborn to admit their mistake.

[Aim64C]

The Strange, on 08 July 2013 - 09:19 PM, said:

There are so many ways to counter ECM now. I can't believe people are still whining about it. Plus, your LRMs can be dumb fired you know. But all of that wouldn't matter at all if you just took a TAG. Perhaps instead of railing at the game for not letting you have an easy mode, try using the tools in the game that allow you to use LRMs.

What other weapon system requires you to bring along support equipment just to make the ****** work?

Sure - you can dumb-fire. And hit enemies that are dumber than your dumb-fire missiles.

Geist Null, on 08 July 2013 - 09:26 PM, said:

I would love to see the server numbers on how many people overheated to 120% and actually took enough damage to die. they need to stop kittening the energy boats and just set the explosion bar much, much lower. the others are right about finding a friend on teamspeak. I run spider and hold targets for the LRM boats constantly, the LRM's take out our enemies rather quickly when one does that. solo players need to get on the bandwagon and be a part of the community.

I probably need to do this before I actually kill someone following a match of ridiculousness. Some of the teams I've been paired with make me pray for the return of small pox and the zombie apocalypse in one species-exterminating plague.

I have actually died from overheating, once - it was toward the end of a match and I took my quad ER Large Laser blackjack and hit the over-ride button before mashing my mouse buttons while over an enemy.

Though I think I'd already taken some CT internal damage.

It wasn't the "new" overheating mechanic, though. It was kind of entertaining watching my arms fall off, though. Since it happened after the conclusion of the match - it didn't count as death, though - which was nice.

Modo44, on 08 July 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

Picking a medium or assault to boat LRMs is just silly. The former does not have the tonnage to carry enough weapons plus support equipment (BAP and TAG). The latter dies too easy to fast-movers. Those mechs are better off using LRM as a support weapon, not for main firepower. On the other hand, my C4 with LRM40 has been known to BAP DDCs, and is generally a lot of fun. So yeah, learn to play.

So... completely canon builds should be useless in the game.

Medium mechs, which don't have the tonnage to dedicate "support weapons" to should just not use LRMs, even though that's what several of them are designed to use.

You may think you know how to play - but you really need to learn how to build.

Modo44, on 08 July 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

Says the guy who refuses to take support equipment vital for his main weapon.

Why is it vital?

Why SHOULD it be vital?

TAG actually didn't exist in most other MechWarrior titles. Mech 3 had it as a spotting tool for an out-of-map delivery of what was supposed to be Arrow IV artillery.

The idea with using TAG in the game is that it is supposed to increase effectiveness of LRMs for your team. It is -optional- support equipment. The same as the Artemis IV Fire Control System.

What you describe is it being -required, mandatory- equipment.

Which means mechs like the Catapult A1 have no role. No energy hardpoints. No TAG. Impossible to use. A 100% canon build.

MustrumRidcully, on 09 July 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

Compared to Gunbagwarrior 3, where an alpha strike with too many weapns just blew up your mech on the first attempt, it's definitely low.

Mustrum "I love my mechwarrior 3, why won't you run on my PC" Ridcully

I remember that you could deal so much damage to a mech in MW3 that it would go critical (which was awesome the first time I made it happen).

I also built an 11 CERPPC Annihilator that I tried out one time for the sheer stupidity of it all....

I utterly destroyed whatever it was that I shot at, and it was neat to see my mech explode and leave a crater.

[Modo44]

Aim64C, on 09 July 2013 - 02:26 AM, said:

So... completely canon builds should be useless in the game.

Of course some of them should be useless, because many have very specific roles. LRM boats without support equipment are undrwhelming without spotters. Slow mechs are underwhelming outside of urban areas. Many short-range builds are bad on big maps.

The game does not let you control many match parameters. Again, learn to play -- prepare for what the matchmaker throws at you, not for what you wish you could do. If you are not willing to do that, join a team and ask for a dedicated spotter. See how good players feel about entitled ********.

Edited by Modo44, 09 July 2013 - 02:42 AM.

[Aslena]

TAG is buggy when being put on someone with ECM and doesn't always work. I think it has something do with a second ECM being either near you or near the person that TAG is being put on but with no description from the powers that be I haven't exactly worked out what it's doing

[Lykaon]

Malora Sidewinder, on 08 July 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

LRMs don't require ability to use, and therefore have built in hardcounters that better pilots can use as an "i don't insta-lose to bad pilots" button.

solution? use harder to use weapons if you can. if not, stop complaining. your problem at that point isn't that PPCs are OP, but that you're a terrible pilot.

PPCs are NOT op. everything else just sucks right now. this game has been beaten with the nerf stick until it stopped twitching, and then PGI came back with a nerf-shovel to finish the job.

Another clueless player who assumes that LRMs fly out of the launchers and automaticly hit everything always no matter where the launcher or the target is always.

There is a hell of a lot more to using LRMs than spamming when you have a lock and if you don't know this by now you are probably just hopeless.At this point in the game LRMs are probably the hardest weapons to use effectivley seeing how an imbicile can simply pack ECM and AMS and hug cover while spam-wagoning PPCs.

The absolute need to keep a target Lit with TAG while you lob the slowest projectiles in the game down range at targets returning fire with the most efficent damage dealing weapons in the game means they will probably core you before you can even land a second salvo of un-concentrated LRM damage.

Seeing how you perpetuate the image of LRMs are somehow easyer to use than PPC shows you havn't a clue. I Can't even remember the last time I saw a LRM mech in 8 mans it's all ECM and PPC/Gauss.That should tell you something right there.No body bothers with LRMs because they are difficult to effectivley use so just bring PPC Spam-wagons instead..point,click,repeat.

It is soooo much easyer to use my 4 PPC Stalker than any other mech in my arsenal except maybe my gauss+ 3X PPC highlander.

Just stop pretending PPC snipe fest is anything but point and click.There is no exceptional skill in point and click.I can't even do it for more than a few matches before I get bored sick with it.

[Aim64C]

Modo44, on 09 July 2013 - 02:41 AM, said:

Of course some of them should be useless, because many have very specific roles. LRM boats without support equipment are undrwhelming without spotters. Slow mechs are underwhelming outside of urban areas. Many short-range builds are bad on big maps.

So, an entire team should become next to invulnerable to LRM fire because of a 1.5 ton piece of equipment that can be mounted on an Atlas?

Even in tabletop - mechs like the Catapult were able to fire at enemies under ECM. They took a penalty and things like Artemis were negated.... against the mech that had ECM. This "area cloak" didn't exist.

Quote

The game does not let you control many match parameters. Again, learn to play -- prepare for what the matchmaker throws at you, not for what you wish you could do. If you are not willing to do that, join a team and ask for a dedicated spotter. See how good players feel about entitled ********.

You assume that I am having some kind of difficulty killing people in this game.

Generally speaking, I have absolutely no problems slaughtering you genetic rejects in whatever build I so choose on whatever map I happen to drop into.

Here is the reality: Just to break even with the damage I regularly run in a Jenner - a 35 ton light skirmisher - I have to carry 22 tons in launchers, 6 tons in ammunition, and throw away a precious energy hardpoint for a prototype laser designator from the 1940s (only logic behind it being a whole ton for what can be mounted in your smart phone) that requires me to be in LINE OF SIGHT for at least 3 whole seconds (usually 5-6) to land a successful hit.

Successful use of LRMs, TAG, and Artemis in this game under its present state, means whoever you are shooting at ******* sucks - or has been hopelessly overwhelmed. Which is why you don't see them much in ultra-competitive teams. Anyone worth a snot knows how to get behind cover, knows to follow that little red beam back to the spotter and put 3 PPCs and a gauss into it, and has a DDC with ECM that allows it to trudge through wide open terrain and prevent any kind of sensor contact (because that's how jamming systems work - they make you invisible....right?)

The only 'redeeming' factor about LRMs is that they tend to stack damage onto the center torso when they do actually hit something.

Most of the kills I've made in my C4, lately, have been when the rest of my team gets wiped because they are incompetent. The other team, only marginally more competent, decides to charge me, and I core half of them before they figure out that they need to shoot where I will be rather than where I am.... (an LRM boat that has legs... what next, a rocket with particle cannons?) or the amount of raw laser fire finally does me in.

Or I run out of ammo.

Which is why I run my blackjack. I can score just as much damage and kill twice as many things and still be alive at the end of the match. None of its weapons are killed by ECM. None of them require supporting equipment to be effective or competitive. Unless you count jumpjets - but those are still quite optional (but much more useful than TAG, not to mention a NARC).

[Modo44]

Aim64C, on 09 July 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

So, an entire team should become next to invulnerable to LRM fire because of a 1.5 ton piece of equipment that can be mounted on an Atlas?

If nobody brought either of TAG, BAP, PPC, or common sense, then yeah, they deserve to get crushed. We're not talking about problems with fighting ECM, we're talking about the refusal of OP to even try.

[Karenai]

Yeah, yeah the old LRM vs Skill "debate". Put a little skill into LRM and you get people on the fences.

[Aim64C]

Modo44, on 09 July 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:

If nobody brought either of TAG, BAP, PPC, or common sense, then yeah, they deserve to get crushed. We're not talking about problems with fighting ECM, we're talking about the refusal of OP to even try.

You're blaming him for the team?

You're saying: "well, through teamwork, you can take down the other team."

Well - yeah, except that the other team can work together to, you know, take you down. There's no reason to bring LRMs in a team structure. ECM effectively shuts down a portion of the arsenal you've built your team around until you get your spotters up and on target.

Which puts them at an advantage to bring down your spotters (as your indirect fire is mostly useless, once those spotters start taking fire, they're going to have to evade and the locks are going to drop).

Your argument is that "there are all these things to counter ECM."

No, really, there aren't. TAG is a crutch, at best. You or someone else has a tattle-tale red line that says: "I'm the spotter. Shoot me!" Counter-ECM is a nice idea - but it doesn't work all that well in practice. Particularly when you're sacrificing close to 50 tons of weaponry and armor for it.

PPCs countering ECM is a nice wish. You're better off just killing the ******* outright if you've got the clear shot. The effect doesn't really last long enough to stake any kind of solid strategy around it, either.

There's a difference between "working with it" and "balanced."

You can work with/around ECM. But it's a completely overpowered and broken system. Null Sig doesn't really come into the picture until the Word of Blake do.

Outside of rare examples of lostech.

ECM functions as described here: http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

At least, within battletech.

Current ECM functions far better than the experimental Angel system: http://www.sarna.net...Angel_ECM_Suite

Again - you can work around it.

But the best solution to working around it is to avoid using missiles.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

While I appreciate the TAG argument, having TAG and using TAG are two different things.

And these are the things that differentiate LRM's from Direct FIre and make people like Malora look stupid.

So I'm within 750m, and I see an ECM anything.

To hit them, I need to first flash TAG onto them to break ECM. This normally is a 1-2 second process. Then once I get a lock, another 1-2 seconds, I fire. Depending on my range to target, I have another 2-3 seconds of holding TAG so I don't lose lock.

So I've now spent upwards of 4-7 seconds staring at a mech to do one volley.

During that time I cannot torso twist, and moving around too much is dangerous because if you go behind any kind of cover, or something blocks your TAG for even a nanosecond, you drop lock.

So you're telling me, with all of these mechs that can basically 2-3 shot a Trebuchet, he should expose himself for 4-7 seconds, with no defensive maneuvering to deliver MAYBE 30 points of damage if he's lucky?

[Modo44]

Aim64C, on 09 July 2013 - 04:28 AM, said:

You're blaming him for the team?

No, I'm blaming him for expecting every team to help, or the game to let him ignore counter-LRM measures. This is really not about the game, just about the dude being stubborn. It reminds me of people crying about AMS while only using LRM5s. In 1-tube launchers.

Edited by Modo44, 09 July 2013 - 04:55 AM.

[Ransack]

Tombstoner, on 09 July 2013 - 02:10 AM, said:

Not sure if it was mentioned before but LRM's can be dumb fired into a pack encased in ECM. you dont need TAG. its not the best solution since it needs LOS and your basically dead in that case.

I love when people say this nonsense.

Sure they can be dumbfired. Will they go where you are aiming? Your guess is as good as mine.

I'm glad I finished my three Buckets. One day Mediums will be viable again.

[Mudhutwarrior]

There is a couple of teams I run into and they all run ecm. Lites and dc's When they get lucky and synch drop you can count on a couple of cheese stalkers or yeagers running in concert. Never seen a match last longer than three minutes aginst them. Pretty much tried every counter but being Voip coordinated they are impossible to level agianst. Past that solo drops with multiple ecm I have beaten but its a workout for sure. Usually if they have a spider they win. Last night watched a spider take down the last four assults on my team. Took a while and it was painful to watch but they didnt stand a chance. If they got close he would dissapear and come from a new angle. The instant one got out of the pack he would pounce. It is an issue that should be in the balance but its not. No better than dropping in alpine with all heavys and assults against multiple lites. Might as well discconnect when you see that.

[topgun505]

If the target is in the middle of a blob and all of them have AMS then yes you are correct. If the target is by himself then I have to call BS

AMS doesn't do crap against a dedicated LRM boat.

AMS is handy vs the occasional odd volley thrown your way. Considering how many LRM boats I see fielded as of late I have started taking AMS on any of my mechs that travel slower than 120kph. It will help you get to nearby cover alive but if you get caught out in the open it isn't going to save your arse

Sephlock, on 08 July 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

Take TAG and close to 750 meters.

Then you can fully bask in the ineffectiveness of your LRMs.

And heaven help you if any of them have AMS.

[East Indy]

Sybreed, on 08 July 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

Step 3: Bring back ECM to sanity level of game design, slows lock time but doesn't prevent it

A few things could be done. Prevents 'Mech ID, slows lock, lowers missile hit count, shortens retention, etc.

ECM as-is would've made more sense in scout 'Mechs only. Rally-round-the-Atlas turns it into a cloak.

[Jungle Rhino]

The trick to LRMs on a Trebuchet is that you need to be firing them from 250m away while BEHIND the target.

You have obscene mobility in a Treb with JJs - use it. (and take TAG!)

The other trick to LRMs is to not boat them. You sacrifice too much mobility and leave yourself vulnerable in a gunfight.

[MustrumRidcully]

Jungle Rhino, on 09 July 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

The trick to LRMs on a Trebuchet is that you need to be firing them from 250m away while BEHIND the target.

You have obscene mobility in a Treb with JJs - use it. (and take TAG!)

The other trick to LRMs is to not boat them. You sacrifice too much mobility and leave yourself vulnerable in a gunfight.

The other trick to LRM is is to use AMS, so non-boaters don't even deal notable damage.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

MustrumRidcully, on 09 July 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

The other trick to LRM is is to use AMS, so non-boaters don't even deal notable damage.

I love the circles we go in over LRM's.

It's so fun.

[C E Dwyer]

Sybreed, on 08 July 2013 - 07:37 PM, said:

One of my favorite mechs is the Trebuchet.

This happened twice in a row:

I'm in a match where only 1 or 2 on our team has ECM vs the other team with 3 or more

I get to a distance of 800-900m to the enemy team, close enough to realize I can't target them and my LRMs are COMPLETELY USELESS, making me pretty much useless by definition.

Then, I get PPCed/Gaussed to death, having only my 3 mlasers to defend myself Highlanders and such.

This is just dumb. First, there's the PPC meta that's greatly annoying. Then, there's the crazy counter effect of ECM that is simply out of control if you don't have a ECM counter equipped.

Sigh... waiting on more patches PGI, please tell me you'll sort out this mess.

Reduce ecm effectivness and there will be even more lrm boats than there are now, narc effects ecm, tag effects ecm bap effects ecm, if these are fitted to mechs in your team ecm will be far less effective, its because people chose to slap another weapon on the mech for more damage output, and then gimp themselves is the problem not ECM

Personally I think things are fine and admittedly it could do with less ppc boiating but it could also do with less lrm boating

I take the other view, I'm sick of being in teams where I'm a light, medium, or heavy expected to run the gauntlet so HGN and Stalker builds with nothing but LRMs and a tag can spam damage..