73 replies to this topic

[Tennex]

Viktor Drake, on 10 July 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

Keep in mind, I got over 1700 matches played so aiming isn't an issue. I am not some nub off the boat that doesn't have a clue how to hold aim and I learned on lasers which require even more percision in aiming to be successful with.

The 3 matches are just with a Quad PPC build which isn't any harder to use than a dual PPC build or even a single PPC build. As long as you can hit with one PPC, your golden as far as the actual skill involved is concerned.

As far as 40 points in a single volley, thats not too hard. My Dragon Slayer with a Gauss, ER PPC, 2 ML set up can pound out 35 damage to a single section easily and that is not even counting extra damage from the streaks I have that may or may not hit where I want them to. I will grant you that I can't do it past 270m because of the MLs but the DS is also a hell of alot more mobile than the Stalker so getting to those ranges isn't often an issue.

I guess that is my point, I just don't see how the Quad PPC set up is actually better or even perhaps not enough better to justify all the rage, controversy and praise that it gets here on the forums.

same reason the AC40 does. since they both do 40 damage lol. now thats pin point damage. not DoT like lasers.

Edited by Tennex, 10 July 2013 - 10:33 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Tennex, on 10 July 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

same reason the AC40 does. since they both do 40 damage lol. now thats pin point damage. not DoT like lasers.

Now why do people persist in thinking that it is not possible to keep a laser focused on a single section of an enemy mech for the entire duration of a 1 second pulse? I personally haven't had a real issue doing it since about a month after I started the game. Definately takes more skill, I will grant you that, but it isn't super hard most of the time.

Quad LL = 38 damage
Quad PPC = 40 damage

Quad LL = 3.25 sec cooldown
Quad PPC = 4 sec cooldown

Quad LL = 28 Heat
Quad PPC = 40 Heat

Quad LL = 20 Tons weight
Quad PPC = 28 Tons weight

Now I am still talking boats here but how is the PPC boat better again?

Edited by Viktor Drake, 10 July 2013 - 10:41 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Viktor Drake, on 10 July 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

Now why do people persist in thinking that it is not possible to keep a laser focused on a single section of an enemy mech for the entire duration of a 1 second pulse? I personally haven't had a real issue doing it since about a month after I started the game. Definately takes more skill, I will grant you that, but it isn't super hard most of the time.

Quad LL = 38 damage
Quad PPC = 40 damage

Quad LL = 3.25 sec cooldown
Quad PPC = 4 sec cooldown

Quad LL = 28 Heat
Quad PPC = 40 Heat

Quad LL = 20 Tons weight
Quad PPC = 28 Tons weight

Now I am still talking boats here but how is the PPC boat better again?

since I twist and twitch (and micro jump) I find Large Lasers even if caught in the open tend to give a "whole body exfoliation" not sustained cored damage. If they catch me flatfooted, certainly. But I am no Leet Vic, but I can promise you will almost NEVER get a full second duration in one location on me (except when shut down or a sneaky backshot) so that 38 dmg becomes closer to 30 most times, and spread all over me. the PPCs, where they tag you is where they tag you.

Can't talk for your opponents (and the ELO thing is largely a myth, except in 8 man), just telling you from the perspective of the guy often on the receiving end.

The only time I prefer Lasers is against fast movers, as even a snap shot can allow me to sweep them. (even then, i prefer them as a secondary weapon, as I would rather bludgeon them when the opportunity arises). I have done OK with quad large for instance, and many of my best RS builds run 4 LLasers as brawlers. But the ability to snap shot and do pinpoint 1080
and 1340 respectively, is pretty significant. Especially as a large max reaches what, 900? and if you keep your beam on one location, at that range consistently, you sir, are a far better man than I.

[NRP]

Viktor Drake, on 10 July 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

I guess I honestly don't see why this is suppose to be the ultimate, uber competitive build. I mean it was easy to use but other than that there was just nothing special that stood out about it.

It's not. The PPC stalker has become the scapegoat for those whiny souls who are frustrated with the game but don't really understand why.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 July 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

since I twist and twitch (and micro jump) I find Large Lasers even if caught in the open tend to give a "whole body exfoliation" not sustained cored damage. If they catch me flatfooted, certainly. But I am no Leet Vic, but I can promise you will almost NEVER get a full second duration in one location on me (except when shut down or a sneaky backshot) so that 38 dmg becomes closer to 30 most times, and spread all over me. the PPCs, where they tag you is where they tag you.

Can't talk for your opponents (and the ELO thing is largely a myth, except in 8 man), just telling you from the perspective of the guy often on the receiving end.

The only time I prefer Lasers is against fast movers, as even a snap shot can allow me to sweep them. (even then, i prefer them as a secondary weapon, as I would rather bludgeon them when the opportunity arises). I have done OK with quad large for instance, and many of my best RS builds run 4 LLasers as brawlers. But the ability to snap shot and do pinpoint 1080
and 1340 respectively, is pretty significant. Especially as a large max reaches what, 900? and if you keep your beam on one location, at that range consistently, you sir, are a far better man than I.

Well I don't want to turn this thread into a LL vs PPC debate (maybe I should have thought of that prior to my last post hehe) but I can actually usually hold my beam on the CT at long ranges and I am pretty good at being able to adjust my aim on the fly and keep the recticle on the piece of enemy mech I want to hit. I am not perfect at it but when you consider they fire faster and lower heat, even if only 30 damage gets applied where I want it, I am still probably equaling out to the 40 damage a Quad PPC can do over the 10-15 seconds it takes to core a mech at those damage levels.

However back on topic, what the purpose of this post is for it trying to identfiy why people think the Quad PPC build is so awesome and the only competitive build you can run or at least that is what the post all say.

Going to run it extensively tonight after I get of work and see.

NRP, on 10 July 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

It's not. The PPC stalker has become the scapegoat for those whiny souls who are frustrated with the game but don't really understand why.

Honestly, this is what my theory is leaning toward as well. I really don't think there is an actual problem with the meta or balance, rather I think its a problem with player prespective. The only way I can prove my theory (at least to myself) is by trying it out myself and then debating it from that position.

With that in mind, I have already disproved my belief that a Quad PPC Stalker is not manageable as far as heat goes so I was wrong there. Maybe I am wrong with other things as well.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 10 July 2013 - 11:16 AM.

[FrDrake]

Don't bother with the quad ppc build, have some real fun and get a spider 5k, 4 MG, 3 tons ammo, 1 MPLS then go to town.

[DarkDevilDancer]

Quad PPC isnt like AC40 for one big reason range, AC20 is gonna do nothing at 600 meters.

On maps like river city you can reach out and touch someone from the spawn point even if the damage drop off means your hurting nothing but paint, the jager has to get danger close to be a threat and with weak side armour is easy to deal with, not so the stalker which can sit back in elevated terrain with some cover when the shut downs happen.

The options really are reduce accuracy punishing skill or make boating a non viable option.

[Skyfaller]

Viktor Drake, on 10 July 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Ok due to all the hype, I decided to boat up and test a Quad PPC Stalker.

My build:

Quad PPCs
20 DHS
300 Std Engine
Max armor I could load out.

Only ran it about 3 matches so far but plan to play it alot more tonight but in those 3 matches I just don't understand why all the hype.

First I was supprised at how heat manageable they were though you still couldn't continious fire more than 3 burst without overheat and I found myself having to alt fire pairs at least 50% of the time. Heat was definately still an issue but I would rate it mostly manageable.

However I didn't see an significant increase in the amount of damage I could do compared to a mix build, nor did I see an elevated kill count.

....

I guess I honestly don't see why this is suppose to be the ultimate, uber competitive build. I mean it was easy to use but other than that there was just nothing special that stood out about it.

Edit: Before anyone mentions it. I can aim and aim well. Hitting the enemy wasn't an issue.

The big thing is the fact that you are unloading 40 damage into one spot, instantly, from 90m to long range.

Heat is not much worse than a large laser (which it should not be! PPC heat SHOULD be 10 heat per canon).

If you are a good shot as you say then you should be getting a lot of kills with a quad PPC build. I'm not that good of a shot (being color blind in this very-color blind-unfriendly game sucks) so I go for leg kills. Only atlai can survive more than 2 volleys per leg and taking out one leg dooms any mech.

If you have heat issues with the quad PPC fire them from a standstill or 25% speed (not on a full jog). Your mech doesnt need to actually stop, the heat cooling penalties are based on your speed setting not actual speed...so you can shoot while your momentum carries you a bit.

[Blackfoot]

I totally agree with you OP.

I just bought a Stalker myself a few weeks ago because I wanted to try out those dreaded 6ppc stalkers that everyone has been crying delicious tears about on the forums. I don't seem to die from PPCs that much when I look at my kill screen. Honestly, I probably take more damage from stupid teammates shooting me in the back and such than I do enemy PPC boats, so I cant really relate to the moaning about the PPC meta.

6 ppcs is too hot. 4 is much more manageable, but even then like you said still has heat issues and you usually have to chain fire them.

Personally I would rather run an LRM mech or a hunter killer light mech.

I honestly think theres an overabundance of crybabies here, but maybe thats just me.

[MischiefSC]

Hillhumping.

It's really simple - you can creep a hill and because of the height of the PPCs actually shoot all 4 at the target without showing enough of your mech to even trigger a red triangle for them. When was the last time you saw a Stalker get cockpitted? Sometimes I run a Dragon with 4xPPCs and it's not nearly as effective. It's alright; does better than most dragon builds that's for sure. It's the hillhump. The ability to show less of your mech than a Centurions head, not even enough to trigger the targeting tool, and shoot people with 40pts at 500m. Also aiming is easier due to weapon positioning.

It's not simply the PPC firepower but how you use it on a Stalker. Combined with the damage they can take it's a killer build.

[One Medic Army]

Just going to point out it's not about dealing massive amounts of damage with PPCs.
I typically do less damage when I actually run one of my pinpoint alpha mechs, but I get far more kills and component destructions, I also get a lot more XP.

40Dmg with lasers is probably spread all over the enemy mech, 40dmg with PPCs is all in one spot, if your aim is decent it's in one of the torsos. Follow up with a second actually aimed shot and with 80dmg you've killed or blown off half of most mechs.
80 dmg, much more effect than 80 laser dmg due to concentration.

Back before the HSR and heat reductions I played a Cataphract: 2 PPCs, ERPPC, 2 SSRM. I routinely got ~300dmg or so, but with that 300 damage I usually got 2-3 kills and a good number of assists, plus huge XP awards.
Pinpoint alpha is all about being precise, dealing less damage but getting more use out of it.

Dealing less damage for greater effect is the entire goal of mechwarrior, to spend the least heat/time/ammo on an enemy for maximum effect, or to kill/disable him with the least effort.

[Ragnar Darkmane]

One Medic Army, on 10 July 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

Dealing less damage for greater effect is the entire goal of mechwarrior, to spend the least heat/time/ammo on an enemy for maximum effect, or to kill/disable him with the least effort.

Sounds more like Call of Duty to me than Mechwarrior...

[FupDup]

Ragnar Darkmane, on 10 July 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

Sounds more like Call of Duty to me than Mechwarrior...

We didn't design the game mechanics, we just play them.

[Tennex]

Viktor Drake, on 10 July 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

Now why do people persist in thinking that it is not possible to keep a laser focused on a single section of an enemy mech for the entire duration of a 1 second pulse?  I personally haven't had a real issue doing it since about a month after I started the game.  Definately takes more skill, I will grant you that, but it isn't super hard most of the time.

Quad LL = 38 damage
Quad PPC = 40 damage

Quad LL = 3.25 sec cooldown
Quad PPC = 4 sec cooldown

Quad LL = 28 Heat
Quad PPC = 40 Heat

Quad LL = 20 Tons weight
Quad PPC = 28 Tons weight

Now I am still talking boats here but how is the PPC boat better again?

in that 1 second you are holding your laseres on him, he already got his 40 damage off on you, and is half way behind a rock. So there goes 1/2 of your LL damage onto a rock.

Plus it is significantly harder over range for lasers...

lol you can't argue with the meta. People commonly use these things to an advantage for a reason.

Edited by Tennex, 10 July 2013 - 02:05 PM.

[Gallowglas]

The problem is primarily that it allows you to do a great deal of damage in a pinpoint location outside of typical engagement range, and quickly move back to cover with little or no consequence or return fire. That said, once brawling starts I don't think it's any more effective than any number of other builds. However, it doesn't really have any weaknesses to speak of either.

[BP Raven]

The very first game i had with a quad PPC stalker i got 6 kills and just short of 700 damage, this from a once competant Awesome 9M driver. You can get 3-4 kills with that mech whilst having an idle conversation over teamspeak. Drive it right (don't rush in, target, aim your shots, keep some distance) and you'll be the deciding factor of the match 4 times in 5.

Gallowglas, on 10 July 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

The problem is primarily that it allows you to do a great deal of damage in a pinpoint location outside of typical engagement range, and quickly move back to cover with little or no consequence or return fire. That said, once brawling starts I don't think it's any more effective than any number of other builds. However, it doesn't really have any weaknesses to speak of either.

With the state of SRMs the PPC isn't a terrible brawling weapon by comparison, it can get by as long as you don't get totallt face hugged...

[One Medic Army]

Ragnar Darkmane, on 10 July 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

Sounds more like Call of Duty to me than Mechwarrior...

Look at TT, the basic gameplay is to maximize your ability to deal damage while minimizing your exposure to return damage.
In TT you pay a heat/tonnage/range premium for dealing your damage in concentrated chunks (AC/10, PPC, LargeLaser, AC/20).
In TT, since hitting is based on dice rolls, the goal is to minimize expended heat/ammo/time for maximized gain while minimizing the effect of the enemy's return fire.

[Hyperlynx]

The other advantage I've found PPCs have over llas is that they do their damage instantaneously, whereas lasers force you to expose your mech for longer. That 1 second of not being able to twist your arm in the way of return fire, or not being able to pull back behind cover, has made the difference between life and death several times for me. With PPCs you can fire off your blast and immediately protect yourself.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Ok final evaluation here.

The Quad PPC build Stalker is a good sniper and it is definately no brainer easy to use but beyond that there is not much going for it and definately doesn't deserve the overhyped reputations, at least at whatever ELO bracket I am playing in.

First, it is just too hot. 3 Quad bursts and your into OH, even with 20 DHS. Even if you fire in pairs it is hard to keep the heat under control and you have to slow down your shots drastically to keep from OH very early into any heated fight.

Second it fires to slow. This isn't a huge issue at sniping ranges but if the fight gets up close your just not efficient with sustaining DPS and once you throw heat in there, it really shows how bad the build really is.

Now additionally let me tell you what happens to a Quad PPC Stalker at my ELO bracket and I will let you judge how competitive the bracket is.

The second you fire a burst at an enemy mech, they start torso twisting like crazy and get their butts to cover damn quick. Getting the chance to take your time and line up another shot to pop a side torso DOES NOT HAPPEN especially with a 4 second delay before firing again. Immediately once they get to cover they start working their way up the flanks USING THAT COVER to get in close to you and the majority of them are faster and more agile than you. Then once they get in close, they face hug you so your Quad PPCs become ineffective and do like 4 damage for 40 heat. Then they just face hug you and wear you down till you die. This happened over and over and over in on every map that offered any sort of cover at all and there was nothing I could do to avoid it except maybe run away to stand next to a teammate and hope they saved me.

Now I don't know about you but when you have players on the opposing team immediately reacting eactly the way they should to a Quad PPC boat and then immediately and effectively countering the build, that tells me I am not dealing with "unskilled" players. Since it is pretty obvious they aren't unskilled, I personally think it safe to say I have had the opportunity to test in a competitive environment.

Lastly, my stats took a trememdous hit when I went to Quad PPCs over my traditional Laser and LRM builds. Kill rate way down, K/D way down, Damage way down.

In conclusion the Quad PPC build just doesn't deserve the reputation it has gotten and there are absolutely no balance issue with them. In fact it was a compete eye opener to see how easily and how completely they were countered when people used the proper tactics. I even learned a thing or two for taking a Quad PPC Stalker down even faster.

I also could see how in a less competitive environment, they could dominate the match because everyone is right, they are excellent at doing heavy pinpoint damage and if the enemy allows them to pick their shots, they will easily best most other mechs.

Additionally I could see how they might actually do well in coordinate teams where focus fire targets are being called out and the Stalkers have good reliance on the team supporting them against the counter tactics I saw when playing.

As to everyone who believes they are that they and their Stalkers are the apex predator of competitive play, if you are playing a PUG, sorry to break it to you but I don't think your really playing in the highest ELO brackets.

Anyway I have my flame suit one so shout me down to your hearts content.

Note: I am not saying the build sucks but it was just average at best.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 10 July 2013 - 04:49 PM.

[TehSBGX]

FupDup, on 10 July 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

There's also headshots on Centurions (who have relatively large head hitboxes). And yes I was referring to rear armor some of the time, because Cents brawling my teammates sometimes stupidly carry an XL engine and can't face two people on opposite sides--and die instantly from a side-torso pop.

It was a bit of an exaggeration, but really you're overestimating just how much PPC fire a medium can take. It might not be instant death from full health all of the time, but they're gonna lose a big hunk of their armor.

Wait a second, were you the guy who did that to me the other day?