392 replies to this topic

[Duncan Jr Fischer]

armyof1, on 11 July 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

Having played both sessions now I have to say it's enforced my earlier opinion. The small maps are not suitable at all for 12 vs 12. There's just too little space for that many players and too little cover on most of these maps, especially against lrms. Forest colony, River city, Frozen city are not suited for 12 vs 12. Alpine, Caustic, Tourmaline and Canyons work well.

I totally disagree. Forest colony certainly lacks cover in general and thus is terrible with LRMs, but it plays perfect in terms of tactics, and 12v12 opens much more possibilities for interesting strategies, as the teams' forces could be split up and go say water, caves and middle simultaneously or some other variants. The same applies to River City, had lots of pleasure riding that one, and Frozen City is even more OK as it's larger.

12v12 also makes air/artillery strikes more viable.

Edited by Duncan Jr Fischer, 11 July 2013 - 11:02 PM.

[hammerreborn]

Duncan Jr Fischer, on 11 July 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

I totally disagree. Forest colony certainly lacks cover in general and thus is terrible with LRMs, but it plays perfect in terms of tactics, and 12v12 opens much more possibilities for interesting strategies, as the teams' forces could be split up and go say water, caves and middle simultaneously or some other variants. The same applies to River City, had lots of pleasure riding that one, and Frozen City is even more OK as it's larger.

12v12 also makes air/artillery strikes more viable.

Going to have to disagree with you on your river city assessment. That was a cluster every single match. A beautiful cluster, but a cluster nonetheless.

I noticed I tended to die in the middle a lot, as I'd see 7 deaths, go haha last kill is mine! Walk over the ridge and get massively cored

[Strongpaw]

Rushin Roulette, on 11 July 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

Umm... how about you try to download the client BEFORE the servers go online... thats why the devs anounced it over a day beforehand and also provided a link beforehand.

I downloaded the client overnight and the patcher was ready adn updated before I went to work in the morning... In the evening, when the servers were live, I could log in and play without a problem (apart from the already mentioned crash to mechlab issue of which the devs were made aware of... which only happened once).

There was no gig+ patch either, your downloader must have stopped half way through updating... or you only downloaded the client and completely forgot to press Patch.

I guess thats a "Thank you Strongpaw for a good laugh".

Hmmm downloaded the morning of the 11th of july 1-4am Test in the afternoon, pretty straight foward

need to press 'Patch' before getting 3GB of download, pretty straight foward

Fire up the test server launcher it re-downloads stuff, Pretty straight foward

So what didn't you understand MR "Hurrr Duurrr Hat Go On Foot" 'Rushin Roulette' ?

[Grunkzzz]

do they spawn each lance some distance from each othe ri think that would help balance the matches.

[Rushin Roulette]

Well. its not that masses of LRMs will be a guarantee for a win.... but they are fun to play anyways if just about everyone comes with the trial Atlas in a 12v12... 1135 tons of pure trolldome.

[BigBANGtheory]

I played some 12 vs. 12 yesterday and it was fun a different pace of game definitely, and players generally being a lot more cautious. I have to remind the developers though of the continued bad policy regarding forming groups and the impact this has on 8 man teams let alone 12 man it can be very frustrating.

[armyof1]

Duncan Jr Fischer, on 11 July 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

I totally disagree. Forest colony certainly lacks cover in general and thus is terrible with LRMs, but it plays perfect in terms of tactics, and 12v12 opens much more possibilities for interesting strategies, as the teams' forces could be split up and go say water, caves and middle simultaneously or some other variants. The same applies to River City, had lots of pleasure riding that one, and Frozen City is even more OK as it's larger.

12v12 also makes air/artillery strikes more viable.

Yes Forest Colony has little cover for LRMS, so you just go and put even more players there, making it even harder to find cover? That is of course a bad idea. Having that many players in such small maps there is very little use of strategy as it's so easy to see where everyone is going. And if you split up going 2 ways, one of the teams usually end up obliterated fast by the opponents if they don't split up. You'd need fully coordinated movement from a 12-man to make any movement beyond going together worthwhile. If not, it's just one big cluster of firing into each other, having too little cover and all you got left is just chaos in varying degrees.

[ssm]

armyof1, on 12 July 2013 - 02:03 AM, said:

(...) You'd need fully coordinated movement from a 12-man to make any movement beyond going together worthwhile. If not, it's just one big cluster of firing into each other, having too little cover and all you got left is just chaos in varying degrees.

Yup, and for the first time I've felt like it's actual battlefield. I've had match (PUG) on Frozen City with actual frontlines grinding against each other, with harrasing lights, lrm support, groups of brawlers and lot of s**t flying by.

I started to feel some kind of Battletech-y childhood wonder.

[armyof1]

ssm, on 12 July 2013 - 02:21 AM, said:

Yup, and for the first time I've felt like it's actual battlefield. I've had match (PUG) on Frozen City with actual frontlines grinding against each other, with harrasing lights, lrm support, groups of brawlers and lot of s**t flying by.

I started to feel some kind of Battletech-y childhood wonder.

Might make for a nice movie, for a game not so much.

[ssm]

armyof1, on 12 July 2013 - 02:23 AM, said:

Might make for a nice movie, for a game not so much.

Why? The goal of this game is to "simulate" small scale mech engagements, and chaos is just part of those. It wasn't harder to coordinate as in standard 8v8 pugs, except with 12v12 it's harder (on smaller maps) to set up standard ppc firing line without getting in each other's way.

12v12 just 'feels' better, on whole lotta levels.

[armyof1]

ssm, on 12 July 2013 - 02:31 AM, said:

Why? The goal of this game is to "simulate" small scale mech engagements, and chaos is just part of those. It wasn't harder to coordinate as in standard 8v8 pugs, except with 12v12 it's harder (on smaller maps) to set up standard ppc firing line without getting in each other's way.

12v12 just 'feels' better, on whole lotta levels.

The answer is simple, when you put too many players on a map that can't provide cover for all of them, what do you think will happen? It'll be so much easier to rain down lrms and cash in on that. I already saw how some just found good cover in the back and stayed back and let the people in the front kill each other first. Because if too many move up there is not enough cover for everyone and one uav/ light targetting you when you don't have any cover close by already taken will make a bunch of lrms fire at you at the same time, leading to almost instant death. Too many players+too little cover = bad

Edited by armyof1, 12 July 2013 - 02:44 AM.

[Mjilaeck]

Helmer, on 11 July 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

The difference is intent.

If you feel like PGI is Lieing to you, then that's your choice. But I highly doubt they intentionally deceive anyone, and have never personally heard or seen, anyplace where someone at PGI deliberately LIED to anyone.

Great, so they're not lying to us, they're just incompetent? That makes it so much better.

[ssm]

armyof1, on 12 July 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:

The answer is simple, when you put too many players on a map that can't provide cover for all of them, what do you think will happen? It'll be so much easier to rain down lrms and cash in on that. I already saw how some just found good cover in the back and stayed back and let the people in the front kill each other first. Because if too many move up there is not enough cover for everyone and one uav/ light targetting you when you don't have any cover close by already taken will make a bunch of lrms fire at you at the same time, leading to almost instant death. Too many players+too little cover = bad

This goes both ways - in pugs both teams have (on average) same access to cover, in 12-mans both teams have to use tactics. Teams that actively use spotters to rain lrms are winning reagrdless if it's 8v8 or 12v12.

I saw people that stayed back due to lack of cover (or sth), and single glance at map revealed at least 2-3 ways for them to be useful and contribute. Not to mention that it doesn't take a lot of imagination to predict where cover would be when needed.

Disclaimer: I'm all for redesigning old maps (esp. Forest Colony and River City) to be somewhat bigger, I'm against cluttering them with more pieces of cover as they are now.

Edited by ssm, 12 July 2013 - 03:25 AM.

[armyof1]

ssm, on 12 July 2013 - 03:16 AM, said:

This goes both ways - in pugs both teams have (on average) same access to cover, in 12-mans both teams have to use tactics. Teams that actively use spotters to rain lrms are winning reagrdless if it's 8v8 or 12v12.

I saw people that stayed back due to lack of cover (or sth), and single glance at map revealed at least 2-3 ways for them to be useful and contribute. Not to mention that it doesn't take a lot of imagination to predict where cover would be when needed.

Disclaimer: I'm all for redesigning old maps (Forest Colony) to be somewhat bigger, I'm against cluttering them with pieces of cover as they are now.

Ok so everyone should just carry lots of lrms since it'll be so much easier to use them with too little cover for the teams? Just no, if your map is designed for 8 vs 8 people including the amount of decent cover, cramming more players in there and make it an lrmfeast is silly. And you can't predict cover that doesn't exist, you need buildings quite a bit taller than your mech to be able to avoid lrms ever since the new flight path and there just are too few of them around Frozen city for 12 players on each side. You'd have to go almost back to your own base to find 12 good spots for cover.

Edited by armyof1, 12 July 2013 - 03:28 AM.

[Duncan Jr Fischer]

armyof1, on 12 July 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:

The answer is simple, when you put too many players on a map that can't provide cover for all of them, what do you think will happen? It'll be so much easier to rain down lrms and cash in on that. I already saw how some just found good cover in the back and stayed back and let the people in the front kill each other first. Because if too many move up there is not enough cover for everyone and one uav/ light targetting you when you don't have any cover close by already taken will make a bunch of lrms fire at you at the same time, leading to almost instant death. Too many players+too little cover = bad

The fact is there isn't enough cover IN ONE PLACE, teams shouldn't clog that much in one place. In the matches that I've seen 12v12, the winning team was the one that split its resources in a smart way and attacked from different directions, while having a couple of mechs trying to get enemy base. At the same time the team having all 12 mechs on a small territory with not enough cover suffers from friendly fire and stray missiles, constantly blocking each other's maneuverability. If you want cover for all, you are probably playing it wrong.

[Ralgas]

armyof1, on 12 July 2013 - 03:26 AM, said:

Ok so everyone should just carry lots of lrms since it'll be so much easier to use them with too little cover for the teams? Just no, if your map is designed for 8 vs 8 people including the amount of decent cover, cramming more players in there and make it an lrmfeast is silly. And you can't predict cover that doesn't exist, you need buildings quite a bit taller than your mech to be able to avoid lrms ever since the new flight path and there just are too few of them around Frozen city for 12 players on each side. You'd have to go almost back to your own base to find 12 good spots for cover.

It is a very good counterpoint for not upping ammo count!! And note "Good" spots for cover on the small maps are rarer due to the extra and constant view coverage the extra mechs and long battle lines afford.


That said for next thursday i'd like a request of one of the clans. drop a 12 man fast mech group (all 120km/h +) for a drop or 3 and push the movement netcode to it's limit!!

[armyof1]

Duncan Jr Fischer, on 12 July 2013 - 03:39 AM, said:

The fact is there isn't enough cover IN ONE PLACE, teams shouldn't clog that much in one place. In the matches that I've seen 12v12, the winning team was the one that split its resources in a smart way and attacked from different directions, while having a couple of mechs trying to get enemy base. At the same time the team having all 12 mechs on a small territory with not enough cover suffers from friendly fire and stray missiles, constantly blocking each other's maneuverability. If you want cover for all, you are probably playing it wrong.

Well let's take Frozen City, how do you split up your teams there without getting one team wiped out and then the other for the loss 4 out of 5 times? And note that I'm not talking about a full 12-mans, I'm talking a premade or two and pugs mixed. You can't have that kind of well-timed coordination under those circumstances, which means splitting up the team generally turns into a loss.

[ssm]

armyof1, on 12 July 2013 - 03:26 AM, said:

Ok so everyone should just carry lots of lrms since it'll be so much easier to use them with too little cover for the teams? Just no, if your map is designed for 8 vs 8 people including the amount of decent cover, cramming more players in there and make it an lrmfeast is silly. And you can't predict cover that doesn't exist, you need buildings quite a bit taller than your mech to be able to avoid lrms ever since the new flight path and there just are too few of them around Frozen city for 12 players on each side. You'd have to go almost back to your own base to find 12 good spots for cover.

That's the one scenario that I don't actually fear. Reasons:

1. Cover (there still is a lot of it)
2. ECM
3. AMS
4. Every other weapon system.


Lrm boats* simply cannot carry entire team - it takes 4 of them to be as effective as PPC/gauss ones. They are support weapons and they are less effective than lasers, ppcs and ballistics and dangerous only in big clusters - it still takes lrm boat twice the time to kill mech than other prevalent weapon combinations.

*Only lrm boat that actually can carry (with competent pilot and either good spotter or a little luck) is AWs 8R with 4xALRMS15. Soon to be nerfed by upcoming heat scale penalties.


P.S. I understand your argument, but lrms just aren't dangerous enough to justify any changes to maps.

[armyof1]

ssm, on 12 July 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

That's the one scenario that I don't actually fear. Reasons:

1. Cover (there still is a lot of it)
2. ECM
3. AMS
4. Every other weapon system.


Lrm boats* simply cannot carry entire team - it takes 4 of them to be as effective as PPC/gauss ones. They are support weapons and they are less effective than lasers, ppcs and ballistics and dangerous only in big clusters - it still takes lrm boat twice the time to kill mech than other prevalent weapon combinations.

*Only lrm boat that actually can carry (with competent pilot and either good spotter or a little luck) is AWs 8R with 4xALRMS15. Soon to be nerfed by upcoming heat scale penalties.


P.S. I understand your argument, but lrms just aren't dangerous enough to justify any changes to maps.

We must be playing on very different maps, because in no shape or form are there plenty of cover for LRMs on Frozen City, especially on one side with a lot less taller buildings. And little cover of course means a lot more targets to be hit by LRMs, that is just obvious. And you're against changing the map, but somehow upping the amount of players by 50% wouldn't effect how the map is being played?

Edited by armyof1, 12 July 2013 - 03:54 AM.

[Mr Blonde]

I was pleased with how 12 v 12 went yesterday. I'm ecstatic to be able to come to the forum for something good instead of to have to ***** about 3rd person being added. Hopefully more good features coming in will offset the shame of that feature. Anything that, like 12 v 12, brings us closer to the BT universe is good with me. Keep up the good work!!!