261 replies to this topic

[Fr33lanc3r]

First, jesus christ there's a lot of rage and finger pointing flying out of people saying "I'm not the nerd rager YOU ARE!" Second and most importantly, the meat of the post...

Hardpoints:
Maybe I'm just naive but aren't hardpoints just part of a trifecta in the mechwarrior system to limit certain loadouts and variants. This is how I understood it:

• Hardpoints keep you from mounting 10 small lasers instead of 1 PPC cannon
  
• Weight keeps you from mounting 1 PPC cannon instead of 3 small lasers
  
• Heat keeps you from mounting 3 PPC cannons even if you've got the space

Now, each of these combat each other, want to reduce heat, you're going to have to take a hit on what you mount or mount more heatsink taking away armour, speed, or firepower. Need to reduce weight, going to have to take on more heat, lose some armour or drop some firepower. Want to fit that AC/20, going to have to give up some armour, heat, and/or hardpoints for the space it's going to take. This feels like a self policing system and we won't be seeing a Jenner with 5 ERPPC's like it looks like some will fear.

Variation (or lack there of):
Even if people are restricted to stock++ there's going to be an optimum load-out and an optimum stock chassis, you see it all the time on sarna.net when variants are described, some are actually stated as total crap. So that worry of lack of variation is going to apply to free form and stock++. Also, free form will be limited by my previous section...

Money:
Would PGI make money off of the nickle-and-dime its users to death? Yes. Should they follow that plan? No.
Some of the most successful F2P models currently are TF2 and LoL, they are good games, and give players fun things that they want that aren't game balance breaking and most of all THEY'RE A GOOD GAME. A good game with a good model that's open and easily accessible by the player and most of all DOESN'T HAMPER THE PLAYER'S ABILITY TO PLAY THE GAME will get its money hand in fist and the guys at PGI will be merrily programming from each of their 5 yachts...

[Badfinger]

Hell NO...

[Rabid Dutchman]

Why, in the name of everything holy, would you intentionally limit the amount of customization available?

I read enough of the OP to know that one concern is PGI making money. As someone getting a degree in marketing, I feel safe in saying that PGI has already dedicated a large chunk of time and resources to establishing their business model and figuring out what will and won't fit with it in game. The time spent breaking down demographics and psychographics alone is immense.

So fret not little one, PGI knows what they're doing and they don't need you making sure the game will be profitable. They've already done that

[KageRyuu]

I could go all day arguing against your every single point, but the fact of the matter is, the Devs are smarter then you or anyone else on this forum. They know or have an idea of what will work, what will help, and what will **** them in the end. Restricting someone's freedoms is the fastest way to **** yourself.

If you don't like a feature the devs and the community do like as whole, then don't use it. But don't **** in the punch just because you don't like the flavor. It's childish, and down right disrespectful, especially when you haven't even tasted it yourself.

So keep the conjecture about what should be changed to an absolute minimal until you do get in the beta, but by that time you'll be under a NDA so it's not like you'll be able to post it in the forums anymore.

[Cik]

ITT: frostiken posts well-thought out OP, half of the thread doesn't read it, gets extremely analravaged, terrible arguments and backpedaling EVERYWHERE

KageRyuu, on 10 June 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

I could go all day arguing against your every single point, but the fact of the matter is, the Devs are smarter then you or anyone else on this forum. They know or have an idea of what will work, what will help, and what will **** them in the end. Restricting someone's freedoms is the fastest way to **** yourself.

If you don't like a feature the devs and the community do like as whole, then don't use it. But don't **** in the punch just because you don't like the flavor. It's childish, and down right disrespectful, especially when you haven't even tasted it yourself.

So keep the conjecture about what should be changed to an absolute minimal until you do get in the beta, but by that time you'll be under a NDA so it's not like you'll be able to post it in the forums anymore.

your blind sycophancy is not convincing

[Shootanoob]

to come back on that "money" part: C-Bills / ingame currency would be acceptable (but not necessary), real money for a refit / customization - never ever.

[phelancracken]

I agree on one thing Kage, the Devs have the ultimate say of the game. The OP is speculating wildly about what's going to happen even when this game hasn't gone live let alone gotten out of Beta yet. They know where they want to take the game, and it's our choice to play the game they give us.

[Roland]

With all due respect to Frosti, who I honestly like the posts of, I have not found that he has presented a convincing argument that there is even a problem here that needs addressing.

The ultimate core of his argument, that the mechlab will eliminate diversity, is not supported by empirical evidence.

[BloodLegacy]

I respectfully and wholeheartedly disagree with your premise. Customization has been at the core of the battletech universe since its inception. Just no.

[phelancracken]

Cik, on 10 June 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

ITT: frostiken posts well-thought out OP, half of the thread doesn't read it, gets extremely analravaged, terrible arguments and backpedaling EVERYWHERE



your blind sycophancy is not convincing

Unfortunately, then you have failed there. Why? We don't know what the game is going to be when it goes live. If you are in BETA you can't post here due to NDA. These are FACTS. I have read that the Devs are going to follow the time line on equipment. So, currently, where is there mention of a Triple ERLL weapon? If it fits in place of a small laser I want 20. Seriously, that's something that's hyperbole.

BTW, there is no such weapon in the BT universe before the 3067 timeline.

Edited by phelancracken, 10 June 2012 - 02:14 PM.

[Shootanoob]

KageRyuu, on 10 June 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

If you don't like a feature the devs and the community do like as whole, then don't use it. But don't **** in the punch just because you don't like the flavor. It's childish, and down right disrespectful, especially when you haven't even tasted it yourself.

Well, I guess it's always the form HOW to adress a different oppinion, not IF. The general stating from someone not liking features A or B to be this way or the other (even if completely not knowing how they'll turn out in the end) is not the real problem, the way some people argue about it might be a little drastic.

Whether or not "the community as a whole" likes something or not is, with all due respect, better placed with the community as a whole and not with your personal oppinion.

[FlakAttack]

Cik, on 10 June 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

ITT: frostiken posts well-thought out OP, half of the thread doesn't read it, gets extremely analravaged, terrible arguments and backpedaling EVERYWHERE

No, I think you got it wrong. What you mean is, ITT: Tourny playing TT guys want to see mechs take 4 days to be customized, while MW PC vets say it's fine as it is.

All I can say is arbitrarily locking people out of playing a game for any period of time has never been popular and never will be. The game is built around customization, it is what the devs have been marketing in every single one of their videos. The gameplay and mechlab are being built around each other, as they should be. I just don't understand why this is an issue at all.

[Swordborn]

This has almost definitely been said, but with the lack of IS omni technology prior to the clan invasion, it would make a heck of a lot more sense simply to have variants. I have mixed feeling on customization. I do feel that a lot of individual character gets washed out with it, but I have my own subtle changes to make to most designs: a weapon changed here or there, one less heat sink, a tad more armor, etc., that it would be foolish to omit it altogether.

For the sake of playability, there will never be complete adherence to canon where this is concerned, so we'll see what they come up with. The choice to use the lab is yours, and if you're a great player with any 'Mech, you can roast somebody whose machine is modded beyond belief.

[Cik]

phelancracken, on 10 June 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

Unfortunately, then you have failed there. Why? We don't know what the game is going to be when it goes live. If you are in BETA you can't post here due to NDA. These are FACTS. I have read that the Devs are going to follow the time line on equipment. So, currently, where is there mention of a Triple ERLL weapon? If it fits in place of a small laser I want 20. Seriously, that's something that's hyperbole.

BTW, there is no such weapon in the BT universe before the 3067 timeline.

what in the hell are you even talking about? no one ever suggested that there was such a weapon. you've completely misread. please be quiet. all of frosti's assertions are backed in evidence, while your placation is all based on hope.

[Frostiken]

You people are making a lot of stupid assumptions about things I never said.

"Mechlab should have a cost to actually customize things" = "OMG WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GRIND CBILLS FOR WEEKS JUST TO EVEN VISIT THE MECHLAB WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF"

"Mechlab should have a timer to encourage you to get used to your mech, so you can't change flavor of the month constantly. If you break the timer, a tax is applied to your changes and makes it more expensive - this only works if there's a way to test your mech though, without commiting changes" = "LOLOL OMG IF I CHANGE A SMALL LASER I WONT BE ABLE TO VISIT THE MECHLAB FOR A MONTH!?!"

"Mech hardpoints need to be limited in a way that makes it overall a little less ridiculously customizable. This compromises versatility, encourages boating, and greatly compromises the appeal of variants and more mechs, which the developers want to use to entice you to spend real money." = "OMGGGGG YOU WANT TO REMOVE THE MECHLAB!?!! R U FN NUTZ I WOULD QUIT 4EVAR"




The amount of hyperbole is enough to make me want to burn this forum to the ground. What the **** is the matter with you all?

Edited by Frostiken, 10 June 2012 - 02:25 PM.

[Orion Pirate]

Frostiken, on 10 June 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

You people are making a lot of stupid assumptions about things I never said.

"Mechlab should have a cost to actually customize things" = "OMG WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GRIND CBILLS FOR WEEKS JUST TO EVEN VISIT THE MECHLAB WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF"

"Mechlab should have a timer to encourage you to get used to your mech, so you can't change flavor of the month constantly. If you break the timer, a tax is applied to your changes and makes it more expensive - this only works if there's a way to test your mech though, without commiting changes" = "LOLOL OMG IF I CHANGE A SMALL LASER I WONT BE ABLE TO VISIT THE MECHLAB FOR A MONTH!?!"

"Mech hardpoints need to be limited in a way that makes it overall a little less ridiculously customizable. This compromises versatility, encourages boating, and greatly compromises the appeal of variants and more mechs, which the developers want to use to entice you to spend real money." = "OMGGGGG YOU WANT TO REMOVE THE MECHLAB!?!! R U FN NUTZ I WOULD QUIT 4EVAR"




The amount of hyperbole is enough to make me want to burn this forum to the ground. What the **** is the matter with you all?

My best guess? You are the problem here... WOW...

[Roland]

Frosti, let me just address one of your points.

Regarding the notion of associating a cost with customizing a mech... See, one reason I don't really like this is that a bunch of my buddies in MW4 and I spent millions of hours just fooling around in the mechlab, coming up with new and interesting builds. So we'd end up tweaking things, testing them out in opens, going back to the lab and tweaking things again.

Unlike the TT game, it didn't all come down to statistics. You needed to play around with stuff to see how it felt.

If there was some artificial limitation on our ability to "get under the hood" so to speak and tinker with our mechs, it would have removed an immensely important part of the game for us.

That's the reason why I don't really support the notion of actually assigning cost or time to the mere act of changing a mech's configuration. It creates a barrier to one of the most fun parts of the game.

[tender bottom]

Firmly disagree to your thought good sir, (O.P.)

the same guns, lame, stale, change them? funky fresh! adaptive we must be and smart when choosing weapon systems, it is what will really give you an edge in combat, at least until you engage someone smarter and more adaptive than yourself. at least that is the idea.

Edited by bleeche, 10 June 2012 - 02:31 PM.

[Smellyshoes]

I'm going to respectfully disagree. To me almost half the fun is the tinkering with mechs. I like switching things out and seeing how I do in a fight.

[Frostiken]

Orion Pirate, on 10 June 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

My best guess? You are the problem here... WOW...

Oh?

Unit 05, on 10 June 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

Under No circumstances, never, EVER should you limit the customization of your mech, EVER, for mechwarrior. You do this. Alot of people will pack up their **** and leave, including me.

So what do you make of that? This chucklehead probably came from MW4. How many clowns throwing complete ragefits in this thread played MW4 and were happy with it? How many of us actually know the story behind MW4's mechlab?

MW4's mechlab was even more limited than this one, with hard-limits applying to your weapon size, curious handling of ammo that made it take more space than it should've, and arbitrarily applied hard limits on equipment installation.

Compared to MW3's "everything goes" mechlab, MW4's was like arguing your right to free speech in a Soviet gulag. Yet the vast majority of people in this forum were clearly happy enough with MW4's mechlab to play it for 10 years.

So again, "What the **** is the matter with you all?"