65 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

Roland, on 11 July 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

I'm amazed that the issues that everyone is pointing out to you in detail are still somehow beyond your ability to grasp.

A module that lets you see where everyone is around you cannot possibly make it easier for you to sneak up on anyone, unless you are playing against players who do not have it equipped.

This seems painfully obvious to me, and everyone else.

You aren't surprising anyone in you QD, unless they are terrible, or have poorly outfitted mechs. Maybe you think you are, but you're not... because it's impossible to surprise someone when they see a blinking red dot indicating your position.

Surpise is not all about sneaking up on someone. Surpirse can also be able acting in a manner inconsistant with their expectations of you or your actions. My example of someone detecting you on seismic and moving to intercept you as you come around a hill but instead you take advantage of the knowledge he is doing just that to instead jump over the hill and land behind him is surprise. He expected you to come round the hill yet you did the unexpected and jump over and behind him. SUPRISE, I just cored you from behind. Oh wait, the blinking red dot is why they thought you were going to come around the hill rather than over....how can that be since you can't be surprised if they know your comming?

This is painfully obvious to me, but apparently not everyone else I guess since everyone appears to have a one track mind and can't see outside the box concepts.

Then of course you bring up those players not equiping seismic. Hmm I guess using seismic as an advantage against them is not an advantage right?

As far as me in my QD, I guess all those mechs that allow me to core them from behind without reacting to me are doing it on purpose huh? I mean they know I am there but they are just too dumb or lazy to turn around to face me? Seriously?

[PEEFsmash]

Viktor Drake, on 11 July 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

As far as me in my QD, I guess all those mechs that allow me to core them from behind without reacting to me are doing it on purpose huh? I mean they know I am there but they are just too dumb or lazy to turn around to face me? Seriously?

They are bad. You are playing against bad players.

[Accursed Richards]

PEEFsmash, on 11 July 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

They are bad. You are playing against bad players.

Nah, it's got to be SKILL.

[Roland]

Quote

He expected you to come round the hill yet you did the unexpected and jump over and behind him. SUPRISE, I just cored you from behind.

Dude, how could you surprise him by coming over the hill?

HE CAN SEE YOUR RED DOT COMING OVER THE HILL.

As Peef said, you are playing against bad players if they are somehow surprised in that situation.. or they are new players who don't actually have seismic equipped.. or both. Or they're looking at other mechs.

Whatever the case, you aren't surprising anyone.

[Volthorne]

Roland, on 11 July 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

As Peef said, you are playing against bad players if they are somehow surprised in that situation.. or they are new players who don't actually have seismic equipped.. or both. Or they're looking at other mechs.

Or they can't play enough to afford it (C-Bill wise). Or refuse to run broken garbage.

Edited by Volthorne, 11 July 2013 - 10:40 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Roland, on 11 July 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

Dude, how could you surprise him by coming over the hill?

HE CAN SEE YOUR RED DOT COMING OVER THE HILL.

As Peef said, you are playing against bad players if they are somehow surprised in that situation.. or they are new players who don't actually have seismic equipped.. or both. Or they're looking at other mechs.

Whatever the case, you aren't surprising anyone.

Seriously? You don't understand this?

If I am jumping he can't see me. My red dot disappears. One minute I am walking right into his trap, the next my blip is gone and I am not appearing where he thinks/knows I should be appearing. The next thing he knows is that he is taking fire from his rear and all of a sudden he has a red blip there behind him. It is called misdirection. It is a form of surprise.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 11 July 2013 - 10:43 AM.

[FupDup]

Viktor Drake, on 11 July 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

Seriously? You don't understand this?

If I am jumping he can't see me. My red dot disappears. One minute I am walking right into his trap, the next my blip is gone and I am not appearing where he thinks/knows I should be appearing. The next thing he knows is that he is taking fire from his rear and all of a sudden he has a red blip there behind him. It is called misdirection. It is a form of surprise.

Jump jetting can only go straight forwards ya'know. All you have to do is take note of the path they had prior to the jump and you'll know somewhat near where they're going to land.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Anther example while I am thinking of it another form of surprise called distraction.

You use your seismic sensor to observe the enemies actions from behind a ridge. They don't think your a threat because there is this ridge between you and them. However you see them all moving toward one of your friendly units. Therefore you take advantage of this distracted awareness to jump over the ridge and attack them from the flank or rear. Since they aren't paying attention to you, you gain tactical surprise or at least tactical advantage. A non-jump capable mech might use his high speed to zoom around the ridge before the enemy can react.

There is so many ways to use seismic sensors to your tactical advantage it isn't even funny and the vast majority of those ways require fast, agile mechs to pull them off. Most Assaults (except maybe the new Victor) can't move fast enough to do more than point itself in the right direction. Most heavies can't either. Fast mediums can, especially if they have JJs. Light most assuredly can JJs or not.

[Purlana]

An advantage? So taking away the cave path and several other key paths are an advantage for light mechs? If you ever decide to go into a cave, you better expect a centurion in your face.

Edited by Purlana, 11 July 2013 - 10:54 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

FupDup, on 11 July 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

Jump jetting can only go straight forwards ya'know. All you have to do is take note of the path they had prior to the jump and you'll know somewhat near where they're going to land.

Seismic isn't that precise that it is always easy to see exactly the trajectory and especially not last minute changes in direction. Also even if he does see you, he has to react to something he didn't expect, that might be a few vital seconds that allows you to sweep in and finish him or maybe just do a drive by before fading into cover.

Prime example, I was facing off against a DS in my QD and he manged to put a hill between him and me. We were both red internals on our CTs so the next one who sneezed at the other won. I angled back to try to take him from behind and I could see on seismic that he instantly reacted to me so he had to be using siesmic as well. I therefore continued around like I was going to move around the hill while I watch him come just to the edge and stop waiting for me to give him a target. Instead at the last minute I altered my angle just a bit and jumped toward his rear while twisting so I was pointing directly where he was standing. He spotted me midway through the jump but was obviously not expecting it. Just as I was landing, he started to make his turn. I waited till I got a slight angle on his CT, but not so long he could target me and fired....BOOM, down he went.

I am speaking from experience guys, not pulling this out of my butt or theorycrafting here. Everything I have suggested, I have done and it all worked and continues to do so. That is why I am so adamant about my position on it.

[Volthorne]

Viktor Drake, on 11 July 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

I am speaking from experience guys, not pulling this out of my butt or theorycrafting here. Everything I have suggested, I have done and it all worked and continues to do so. That is why I am so adamant about my position on it.

And I can speak from experience having never run Seismic ever that it sucks when you round a corner and the whole enemy team is right there, staring you in the face, despite having avoided all visual contact and taking an unconventional route to try and flank.

Do not pass Go, lose 20 IQ.

[Roland]

Viktor Drake, on 11 July 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

Anther example while I am thinking of it another form of surprise called distraction.

You use your seismic sensor to observe the enemies actions from behind a ridge. They don't think your a threat because there is this ridge between you and them. However you see them all moving toward one of your friendly units. Therefore you take advantage of this distracted awareness to jump over the ridge and attack them from the flank or rear. Since they aren't paying attention to you, you gain tactical surprise or at least tactical advantage. A non-jump capable mech might use his high speed to zoom around the ridge before the enemy can react.

There is so many ways to use seismic sensors to your tactical advantage it isn't even funny and the vast majority of those ways require fast, agile mechs to pull them off. Most Assaults (except maybe the new Victor) can't move fast enough to do more than point itself in the right direction. Most heavies can't either. Fast mediums can, especially if they have JJs. Light most assuredly can JJs or not.

I honestly have to wonder if this garbage even makes sense in your brain, or if this is just an elaborate trolling attempt.

Having the enemy know where you are IS NEVER A TACTICAL ADVANTAGE.

You keep focusing on knowing where the enemy is, because that's a tactical advatage (and the Seismic module allows you to have it even if you are totally incompetent when it comes to maneuvering), but you are seemingly oblivious to the fact that it makes actually sneaking up on a mech unobserved totally impossible.



For instance, let me paint you a picture from earlier in beta. Me and my buddy were both running hillarious little max SRM commandos. Not ideal mechs, by any stretch, but packed a huge alpha strike for their size.

We both flanked around the enemy unobserved, walked right up to an atlas until we were basically touching him, and fired everything into his back, killing him instantly.... then ran off gleefully and did it to another mech.

You can't do that now. You cannot get within 400m of an enemy without them knowing you are there, unless they are incompetent.

Hell, have you noticed how basically no one uses the caves on maps any more? Because you can essentially just monitor them from outside, trivially now. There's no way to sneak through them.

By elminating stealth from the game, you have basically nerfed any mech who as able to use it to its advantage. This is so ridiculously obvious that I can't see how this escapes you.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Purlana, on 11 July 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

An advantage? So taking away the cave path and several other key paths are an advantage for light mechs? If you ever decide to go into a cave, you better expect a centurion in your face.

These aren't key paths, they are just paths like everything else, no more no less. If your running seismic yourself then your likely going to spot the enemy waiting and know that it isn't a good path to take. Without seismic, even if the enemy didn't have it, taking the cave would be a 50/50 risk. Do you make it through to the rear of the enemy or run into the entire enemy team while your in an enclosed place with no where to run. Seismic takes that guesswork out of it for the light pilot. Your actually safer because of it.

It also opens up paths for a light mech. Say you decided to go for cap, now you got to chose a route. Now do chose left or right or maybe center. You chose to run left and not more than 300m in your come around a hill...right into half the enemy team and boom your dead. That is without seismic. With seismic, you run left and all of a sudden red dots everywhere....yikes, that was a bad choice. No worries, I will just retreat and now I know that the entire right side will be clear all the way to the base.

Again an advantage to seismic for lights.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Volthorne, on 11 July 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

And I can speak from experience having never run Seismic ever that it sucks when you round a corner and the whole enemy team is right there, staring you in the face, despite having avoided all visual contact and taking an unconventional route to try and flank.

Do not pass Go, lose 20 IQ.

Key words here.

Quote

And I can speak from experience having never run Seismic ever

You don't run seismic. If you did, you would have the advantages. Even if the enemy didn't have seismic, you would still be running the chance that you would run into the entire enemy team. You don't know where they are, a key and vital need for a scout, so you have to guess. Guess wrong you die. If you had equiped seismic, you would have spotted them waiting and you could have withdrawn before engaging.

My whole darn point is that IF YOU USE <KEY WORD> USE seismic as a scout, you gain far more advantages than you lose with it not being in the game or nerfed to oblivion. Just because you chose not to use it out of protest or whatever other reason, doesn't mean those advantage aren't avialble to you should you wise up and use it.

[Roland]

Quote

Seismic takes that guesswork out of it for the light pilot. Your actually safer because of it.

So, by your logic, they should just make all mechs on both teams know of every mech's location.

Because they'll "be safer because of it", thus it must be a huge tactical advantage!

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Why should we be able to gleefully core someone out like that?

It's harder to for lights to take out mechs like that now, but if you wait for both sides to engage, you can still do some damage as you're moving, using cover when you can and avoiding damage, while drawing attention.

As a light one simply needs to first assume that the enemy is using Seismic and plan accordingly.



And I've read ideas about changing Seismic, from tweaking range to tweaking the thresholds of detection, possibly this might help, I guess:

• Lights: bump to 90% max speed, you can stay undetected
  
• Mediums: bump to 80%
  
• Heavy: bump to 70%
  
• and Assaults bump to 50 or 60%

Edit: And I still use the caves all the time, you can still draw people away from the main line sometimes too, like on Frozen City by moving slowly in the cave, if you see blips you can get a sense of what is watching the tunnel and have the speed to get away if necessary or charge through towards the enemy base to draw attention by sitting on cap for a bit before repositioning again elsewhere.

Edited by Praetor Shepard, 11 July 2013 - 11:31 AM.

[Volthorne]

Viktor Drake, on 11 July 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

Key words here.

You don't run seismic. If you did, you would have the advantages. Even if the enemy didn't have seismic, you would still be running the chance that you would run into the entire enemy team. You don't know where they are, a key and vital need for a scout, so you have to guess. Guess wrong you die. If you had equiped seismic, you would have spotted them waiting and you could have withdrawn before engaging.

My whole darn point is that IF YOU USE <KEY WORD> USE seismic as a scout, you gain far more advantages than you lose with it not being in the game or nerfed to oblivion. Just because you chose not to use it out of protest or whatever other reason, doesn't mean those advantage aren't avialble to you should you wise up and use it.

If the enemy team is just STANDING there, Seismic isn't going to help one way or the other because they won't show up. Tell me, when was the last time you went to flank someone (before Seismic) and they just HAPPENED to be looking in the direction you were approaching from? Never? When was the last time you actually managed to flank someone at all without them unloading an Alpha Strike in your direction just as you come into visual range?

I don't have to use Seismic to see how broken it is. You can't see the forest for the trees. Do not pass Go, lose 20 IQ.

[Roland]

Praetor Shepard, on 11 July 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

Why should we be able to gleefully core someone out like that?

Because we managed to get around the entire map, and the ***** let us walk up to within 50m of him without him knowing.
See, prior to seismic, you had to ACTUALLY PAY ATTENTION. You had to have this mystical skill called situational awareness, which involved more than just staring straight ahead.

[xDeityx]

<sub>This thread is good /popcorn.

Viktor you're totally bass ackwards on this one. Everyone benefits from seismic in some way. The group that most benefited from seismic was high alpha snipers. You are seeing how seismic benefits you and are unable to understand that it benefits heavy snipers more because you are too stuck on yourself and how seismic does good things for you.

So we have either one of two situations occurring. Either you are better than everyone here and you figured out something that no other skilled light pilot has, or you are not as good as the players telling you that you are wrong and you are simply fighting against bad opponents and misattributing your success to your skill rather than their lack of it. Occam's razor points to the latter.</sub>

Edited by xDeityx, 11 July 2013 - 11:52 AM.

[Lugh]

Roland, on 11 July 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

Dude, how could you surprise him by coming over the hill?

HE CAN SEE YOUR RED DOT COMING OVER THE HILL.

As Peef said, you are playing against bad players if they are somehow surprised in that situation.. or they are new players who don't actually have seismic equipped.. or both. Or they're looking at other mechs.

Whatever the case, you aren't surprising anyone.

So wait, they're looking at other mechs, a rather common occurrence and they aren't surprised when somebody they were expecting to say boo says BOOOO from a slightly different position?

What world do you live in ??


Ps. the Seismic sensor also helps pug teams somewhat when they see the opposing blips go into disarray on an organized push...

Edited by Lugh, 11 July 2013 - 12:01 PM.