65 replies to this topic

[Roland]

I give up. This is me when I read this thread.

Go on thinking that seismic benefits mechs that are trying to flank. Think that forever.

[Thundercles]

Roland, on 11 July 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

Having the enemy know where you are IS NEVER A TACTICAL ADVANTAGE.

I'm not going to get into whether seismic is good/bad or whatever, because I don't want to get drawn into the quagmire of an internet argument. The quoted statement is not correct though. Controlling the information that your enemy gets CAN be an advantage if you can paint him a picture that you want him to see. It's sort of like capping with the intent to split the enemy forces. If you can use seismic to present an enemy with what looks like the perfect opportunity to strike, the majority if the time he will try to do so.

[Tombstoner]

Roland, on 11 July 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

I honestly have to wonder if this garbage even makes sense in your brain, or if this is just an elaborate trolling attempt.

Having the enemy know where you are IS NEVER A TACTICAL ADVANTAGE.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but this i can't leave alone.
As a light with seismic facing off against a team with seismic. how many of them will turn towards you hopping for an easy kill. i'm gona bet all of them.as many have pointed out. they could attack or wait in ambush. Seismic will focus the attention of everyone with seismic sensors one one target. This IS a tactical advantage, particularly if they know your a light. chances are good that blood lust will overcome good scene and at lest one will charge. idealy into your teams FOF.

So seismic is good for lights when you know how to use them. i have also pulled of this tactic without having seismic equipped

[xDeityx]

Tombstoner, on 11 July 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but this i can't leave alone.
As a light with seismic facing off against a team with seismic. how many of them will turn towards you hopping for an easy kill. i'm gona bet all of them.as many have pointed out. they could attack or wait in ambush. Seismic will focus the attention of everyone with seismic sensors one one target. This IS a tactical advantage, particularly if they know your a light. chances are good that blood lust will overcome good scene and at lest one will charge. idealy into your teams FOF.

So seismic is good for lights when you know how to use them. i have also pulled of this tactic without having seismic equipped

Tactics that rely on stupid enemies aren't even worth mentioning.

When learning martial arts, you learn how to fight a fighter. You don't learn tactics for how to deal with the fat slob at the bar who is going to telegraph a wild haymaker at you.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Roland, on 11 July 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

Because we managed to get around the entire map, and the ***** let us walk up to within 50m of him without him knowing.
See, prior to seismic, you had to ACTUALLY PAY ATTENTION. You had to have this mystical skill called situational awareness, which involved more than just staring straight ahead.

I dunno, you can still sneak up, just gotta be mindful of your speed and that no one sees or hears you, the only difference there from before Seismic seems to be the speed to get behind an enemy, before you could go full speed, now you can't if someone is scanning their mini map. And anyone can have a lapse during a match.

But another difference from then to now is the damage SRMs do. Without the big random splash bonus they used to get, along with their higher damage from before, I dunno if that tactic would still be able to work consistently now anyway with ELO in place.

And sure maybe exploiting some unlucky new players that don't know how to cover each other yet could seem like fun, but in my experience, as soon as that enemy gets damage in the back, they immediately turn to search for the source of that damage (if they don't die from it of course), which can be helpful if you have friendlies that can exploit the mech turning around looking for you, but that means you would still need to move around and get to cover if you can, which would be moot if you get cored out by a high damage pin-point shot on the way.

So, the main problem I see is that it is tough to compete against certain loadouts, and Seismic raises the bar to give certain loadouts a benefit that out weighs the benefits of Seismic to the average light or medium mech. Which is more a problem with balancing weapons better, than simply Seismic alone being considered OP, IMHO.

[Roland]

Thundercles, on 11 July 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

I'm not going to get into whether seismic is good/bad or whatever, because I don't want to get drawn into the quagmire of an internet argument. The quoted statement is not correct though. Controlling the information that your enemy gets CAN be an advantage if you can paint him a picture that you want him to see. It's sort of like capping with the intent to split the enemy forces. If you can use seismic to present an enemy with what looks like the perfect opportunity to strike, the majority if the time he will try to do so.

CONTROLLING what the enemy sees can give you a tactical advantage.

Having your enemy just always know where you are is not... specifically because it reduces your ability to control his perception of you.

Obviously there are times when it can be advanttageous to have a light mech gain the attention of OPFOR. This was possible without seismic. You'd just let them see you, or shoot them from behind.

Having a magical red dot show up on their map isn't advantageous at all, because it doesn't give you any ability you didn't already have when it came to getting their attention.

[xDeityx]

Praetor Shepard, on 11 July 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

I dunno, you can still sneak up, just gotta be mindful of your speed and that no one sees or hears you, the only difference there from before Seismic seems to be the speed to get behind an enemy, before you could go full speed, now you can't if someone is scanning their mini map. And anyone can have a lapse during a match.

Reading this paragraph makes me believe you think there is some link between speed and detection with seismic.

There is none. If you go 1kph, seismic is seeing you.

[Volthorne]

Roland, on 11 July 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

Having a magical red dot show up on their map isn't advantageous at all, because it doesn't give you any ability you didn't already have when it came to getting their attention.

Not to mention controlling that red dot is a double-blind binary, and then you start second-guessing yourself. "Are they actually behind this ridge? What if they're not? Maybe they don't have seismic? Or are not paying attention? Maybe they ARE behind this ridge and have seismic and see me, but I can't tell!"

[Tombstoner]

xDeityx, on 11 July 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

Tactics that rely on stupid enemies aren't even worth mentioning.

When learning martial arts, you learn how to fight a fighter. You don't learn tactics for how to deal with the fat slob at the bar who is going to telegraph a wild haymaker at you.

http://“Those skilled at making the enemy move do so by creating a situation to which he must conform; they entice him with something he is certain to take, and with lures of ostensible profit they await him in strength.” ― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

[Lugh]

xDeityx, on 11 July 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

Reading this paragraph makes me believe you think there is some link between speed and detection with seismic.

There is none. If you go 1kph, seismic is seeing you.

How odd the guys I've cored from behind at 40kph in the middle of their team say otherwise...It's not until the explosive Lugh had killed Clueless one 120398124... that they look about for me....

[Thundercles]

Roland, on 11 July 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

CONTROLLING what the enemy sees can give you a tactical advantage.

Having your enemy just always know where you are is not... specifically because it reduces your ability to control his perception of you.

Obviously there are times when it can be advanttageous to have a light mech gain the attention of OPFOR. This was possible without seismic. You'd just let them see you, or shoot them from behind.

Having a magical red dot show up on their map isn't advantageous at all, because it doesn't give you any ability you didn't already have when it came to getting their attention.

In and of itself, you're right... it doesn't magically do anything that running in circles in front of the enemy didn't already accomplish. Until something is done about it though, we're stuck with it. That being said... there's no sense not taking advantage of it. You know that if you close on them, they'll see your dot. If you know that, you can use it. If you don't use it, the module itself, and the enemy, aren't to blame.

Though, the ability to 'get their attention' without exposing yourself to fire is nice.

[Roland]

Lugh, on 11 July 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

How odd the guys I've cored from behind at 40kph in the middle of their team say otherwise...It's not until the explosive Lugh had killed Clueless one 120398124... that they look about for me....

PEEFsmash, on 11 July 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

They are bad. You are playing against bad players.

[xDeityx]

Tombstoner, on 11 July 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

http://“Those skilled at making the enemy move do so by creating a situation to which he must conform; they entice him with something he is certain to take, and with lures of ostensible profit they await him in strength.” ― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

But you aren't luring them with something they can't refuse, you're luring them with something that only the stupid ones will chase. You said it yourself in your post...

Tombstoner, on 11 July 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

chances are good that blood lust will overcome good scene and at lest one will charge. idealy into your teams FOF.

I assume you meant good sense there.

Lugh, on 11 July 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

How odd the guys I've cored from behind at 40kph in the middle of their team say otherwise...It's not until the explosive Lugh had killed Clueless one 120398124... that they look about for me....

I described how it works. This isn't something that is debatable.

[Gamgee]

FupDup, on 11 July 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

The reality of the matter is that it negatively affects every mech that attempts flanking maneuvers. Lights and mediums just so happen to flank more often due to having terribad armor and weapons (can't attack head on outside of the steering wheel underhive). Heavy and assault flankers get foiled by this as well, because now campers can just turn around and 360-l337-noscope them with PPCs. Heavies and assaults might even be hurt slightly harder because there's more time to react against them.


By the way, another detail that is important is the fact that sniper nests are far less mobile and thus less likely to show up on Seismic, whereas brawlers/flankers are almost always moving. Seismic by its very nature compliments the long-range style of play because it allows one to avoid close-quarters confrontations with mobile enemies.

This is so correct I can't like ti fast enough. Light's are going extinct.

[Qrbaza]

seismic sensors dont ruin my fanks. I drive med mech and i can flank enemy all the time. So dunno why ppl QQ about it...

[Nothing Whatsoever]

xDeityx, on 11 July 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

Reading this paragraph makes me believe you think there is some link between speed and detection with seismic.

There is none. If you go 1kph, seismic is seeing you.

I'm still looking for the source of where I got that idea. So far I've dug up the Patch Notes:

"The heavier the Mech and/or the faster its speed, the larger and faster the blip"

If I can find the actual breakdown again, I'll add a link here.

[xDeityx]

Praetor Shepard, on 11 July 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

I'm still looking for the source of where I got that idea. So far I've dug up the Patch Notes:

"The heavier the Mech and/or the faster its speed, the larger and faster the blip"

If I can find the actual breakdown again, I'll add a link here.

Yep that's how it works but the problem is that the blip never actually goes away unless the 'mech literally stands still. I believe that even rotating your legs while otherwise stationary causes a blip because it makes the "feet stomp" sound but I haven't tested that.

It SHOULD work in a way that you can avoid it by slowing down but that's PGI for you...

[Training Instructor]

Please, I've seen enough 8 man wait fests to not give a f**k about how it impacts you when you finally decide to actually move and engage the enemy.

I actually agree with the OP. On my spider, I can see where they are and what direction they're moving. I can move faster than them so I can do feints, and then buzz around the backside of cover before they can turn around. Before, it was a blind guess on my part, and if I lost it meant I walked into a heavy alpha. Now, I've got a much better idea of what I'm about to run into, and can plan accordingly.

[Lykaon]

FupDup, on 11 July 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

The reality of the matter is that it negatively affects every mech that attempts flanking maneuvers. Lights and mediums just so happen to flank more often due to having terribad armor and weapons (can't attack head on outside of the steering wheel underhive). Heavy and assault flankers get foiled by this as well, because now campers can just turn around and 360-l337-noscope them with PPCs. Heavies and assaults might even be hurt slightly harder because there's more time to react against them.


By the way, another detail that is important is the fact that sniper nests are far less mobile and thus less likely to show up on Seismic, whereas brawlers/flankers are almost always moving. Seismic by its very nature compliments the long-range style of play because it allows one to avoid close-quarters confrontations with mobile enemies.

This covers most of what I wanted to point out but here are a few more points.

when a scout has active line of sight to enemy mechs this data is passivley routed to all friendlies.If a light mech has LOS to targets those targets are on scope for the rest of the light's team.

Now with map layouts and the prollific cover available frequently a scout must approach withing a couple of hundred to a few dozen meters to aquire passive target data for their team mates.

Sure a seismic sensor will allow a light mech to see the aproximate location of moving enemy mechs but the light will not know weight class,variant or loadout and the seismic data is not passivley transmitted to team mates like active sensor data is.

This means that to convey this information the scout must be using a voice comm program or if not in a premade type the intel (and as a light split atttention is a big risk)

Also of important note is if a scout sees the enemy on seismic they have seen the scout.The enemy is immediatley aware of being seen and can adjust tactics to compensate.There are fewer oppertunities for a scout to be unseen and unnoticed.A scout will be located and loses much of the previous tactical options open to speedy mechs.

As I pointed out terrain frequently limits possible line of sight to under a few hundred meters or even as short a distance of a couple dozen meters.This is of course well within seismic sensor detection ranges allowing enemy mechs to be aware of a spotter mech's approach.The proliferation of seismic sensors has added yet another counter measure against effective LRM use by preventing TAG equiped spotters from reaching their targets without being the target of absurdly damaging alpha strikes that proliferate the game currently.

LRMs already have the deck stacked significantly against them with ECM,AMS missile launch warnings slowest projectile speeds (allowing for cover use to be very effective) and the prolific use of high alpha direct fire assault builds. Seismic has now reduced the effective deployment of TAG spotter scouts.

[PEEFsmash]

Qrbaza, on 11 July 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

seismic sensors dont ruin my fanks. I drive med mech and i can flank enemy all the time. So dunno why ppl QQ about it...

This summarizes the case for public Elo.

You are playing against bads. That is why you can freely flank people and they never know its coming. They are BAD if that is happening. You have a 400 meter wallhack to tell you when people are coming. You can flank, but your flank will turn into you being a sacrificial lamb and being 1shotted.