1084 replies to this topic

[Shumabot]

Master Q, on 11 July 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

But it's the convergence benefit that's the biggest problem.

If I can alpha for 40 points with guaranteed convergence, that's a big deal. If I have to chainfire and aim, then at least I am cycling and aiming twice.

If my alpha is guaranteed to spread wide enough to split the damage between CT and a side torso, or CT and one arm, or both side torsos, that is not NEARLY as devastating a shot as guaranteeing a 40-point splat all in the CT.

Remove the benefit of the convergence and all of a sudden a paired AC40 set, or double-gauss, or multi-ppc isn't really all that different from a pack of 18 SRMs (which would ONLY BE 36 damage with 2 per missile, still less than the AC40 or MultiPPC builds).

Does it have "benefits"? Sure. Are the benefits much more balanced with all other builds that already have convergence questions, such as laser/ballistic or laser/missile mixes? YES.

Please don't present these ideas in opposition to eachother. You can have decoupled convergence alongside other sensible anti boating measures. The constant "My balance fix is the only one that helps, even though it doesnt fix srm36, lrm60, or the fact that the only good lights and mediums are the ones boating streaks and meds". There are problems beyond convergence, and they're not small problems. Convergence is a fraction of this problem, and is mostly meaningful for the ppc snipe meta.

[MavRCK]

Paul:

1) You've had feedback for 3 months to increase the SRM damage. Your nerf to SRMs was heavy handed and obviously without the input of good players. Balance at the high levels of your game is missing and this is discouraging the community from growing and evolving.

Morale is at an all-time low.

Please make the changes quickly and let experience guide you if this SRM buff was a good thing or not.

Continuing this 3-month trend of neglect and hand-wringing is not a good idea for now nor it is a good indication of how you will develop this game and the community in the future.

2) I can understand your desire to have an alpha boat penalty - especially if I consider further mech designs in the future. I personally think that balance should revolve around critical slots, weight, ammunition requirement and heat generation, but I can respect and understand your desire to add a further layer of complexity which may be beneficial for the game balance in the future.

3) I am not in favour of reducing heat limit to 100% before CT takes damage. I believe this disproportionately the lighter mechs which has less CT internal structure. By increasing the limit to 120%, larger mechs which can generate higher heat due to alpha strike utilization are more at risk of damaging their CT over a period of time.

Smaller mechs, especially when "dog-fighting", often run over the limit briefly -- by reducing the cap limit to 100% you will end up where light mechs will damage themselves and make themselves more vulnerable than they currently are simply as they do not have as much internal structure to damage.

Thanks!

<3

Mav

PS:

4) Don't take 3 months to get rid / nerf the **** out of the seismic sensor - you can't honestly believe this doesn't dumb-down the game and make all the hard work your sound and shadow programming be worth naught.

Sheesh.

Edited by MavRCK, 11 July 2013 - 03:16 PM.

[Cache]

Tank Boy Ken, on 11 July 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

Are you less than intelligent, how would buffing hitpoints not slow the killing? I mean seriously, how you're getting that wrong is beyond me.

Ah... a shining example of true intelligence. You may wish to actually read my post before being insulting. I gave my opinion stating, "This would be better than..." not, "buffing hit points won't slow the killing." There's a slight difference. If you'd like I can draw a picture.

[Kunae]

Shumabot, on 11 July 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

Except when they hit you in your little xl side and you explode in one shot.

Only if you're a bad, or you get really unlucky.

[Dr Killinger]

I'd like the damaged buffed for now, just as a stopgap. One entire side of an Atlas/Highlander is pretty useless at the moment.

I'd happily take the damage buff now, and then we can see how it goes from there. A a quick patch could easily reduce the damage again in the future if things prove silly.

[Drehl]

I'm curious how this is going to work out ingame...

Not punishing ppc/gauss snipers? Yes
Arbitrary? Yes


But imo also a big step in the right direction.
We'll see how this is going to change the meta game...

Just 2 things that make me wonder..

Large laser limit 2? seems a bit low and also kills 3 of my builds... (flame, trebuchet, heavy metal).. imo 3 is more appropriate.
It isn't a pinpoint damage weapon like gauss and pccs and delivering the whole damage at the same spot is much more diffficult than with ppcs.
Introducing the heat penalty and lowering the shutdown damage treshold to 100% at the same time could turn out suboptimal.
(and cause a shitstorm of epic extend...)

[SteelPaladin]

Troggy, on 11 July 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

I think the problem is that as written, these "Heat System Penalties" adds nothing except complication. This thread is full of a tonne of simple workarounds (2+2 PPC/ER, etc.). It doesn't effect the PPC meta, it doesn't effect the sniping meta, it doesn't prevent sniping, it will be a minor inconvenience to dual AC20 Jagers (at best), and it doesn't even nerf splatcats.

So the question becomes: What does it do?

Well. It makes the game more complicated for beginners. It further reduces the utility of mediums. It means I have to consult a table before I build new mechs. And it further complicates the addition of new content FOREVER.

When you invent a system that fails to address EVEN ONE of your current problems, but creates at least 3 new problems, that is not a solution.

As C.S. Lewis puts it: [color=#181818]“A sum can be put right: but only by going back till you find the error and working it afresh from that point, never by simply going on.”[/color]

The way to fix all of the problems is simple. Write out a list of problems, study them from as many aspects as possible. Pick one (or more), that seems like it has the largest impact, or the least entanglements. Fix it. Repeat until there are no more problems. If you find an entangled problem, try to reduce it to parts, then reapply the algorithm.

--
[color=#181818]Troggy [/color]

This is precisely what I was trying to say earlier. This "solution" is just sticking fingers in the ears and yelling "na na na boating is bad boating is bad!" There is no attempt to ask WHY boating is bad, let alone to try and address that root problem (which doesn't even require boating, as this thread has so often pointed out).

[SuperJoe]

I really don't see why srms shouldn't be able to tear up large mechs, YOU ALREADY HAVE WEAPONS CAPABLE OF TEARING A LARGE MECH IN HALF AT 400+ METERS, I really doubt the heat penalities are going to change that. WHile srm range has a hard limit of 270, it's like they slam into an invisible wall or something.

[Mister Blastman]

PGI... HAVE YOU NOT HEARD OF THE TERM... UNPAID OVERTIME?!?!?!!?!?!?!

(You are Salaried, right?)

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2547485

Quote

Just to clarify:

PPC and ERPPC will be combined into one weapon bucket on the 30th. The code is done but has not gone through test yet and will not be ready for the 16th. After the 30th, both PPC and ERPPC will share the PPC heat scale. i.e. Firing 2 PPCs and 1 ERPPC will be the same as firing 3PPCs.

Paul said that. This needs to be in the 16th... not the 30th. GET TO WORK.

[Shumabot]

Kunae, on 11 July 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

Only if you're a bad, or you get really unlucky.

You being a good player has nothing to do with the opponents ability to accurately place shots. You're not a magic ninja who can never be hit.

[Saracens]

Yes, for god's sake buff the damn SRMs. Ever since their nerf (which was absolutely needed at the time, the super-damage from the splash was insane) the rise of snipermeta has been coming. Giving SRMs back some of their hitting power would go a long way towards bringing things back to a balanced meta.

[Tastian]

How come you can hotfix the 12 vs 12 test server on the fly to fix a blackscreen issue but you can't hotfix a srm damage value for 3 months?

Edited by Tastian, 11 July 2013 - 12:56 PM.

[ohheLp]

Remove all penalties from everything other than PPCs/ERPPCs. Then this won't be so utterly stupid.

Edited by ohheLp, 11 July 2013 - 12:58 PM.

[PropagandaWar]

Mister Blastman, on 11 July 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

Bumped this post in particular. If the developers don't even know the mechanics of their own damn game, how the hell can they be expected to make good decisions in balancing it?

In all fairness to Thomas dual tag mech pic he could have been testing something (Hopeful). If not there is a good chance that he feared losing a tag. I don't no how many time I get a single shot to the arm (still yellow shielding) and lose a medium laser or a heatsink.

[Jack Lowe]

I fear we will get the SRM's buffed, however after all is said and done I don't think people will be as happy with it as they think. At which point Paul will be more than happy to let them know they chose their fate. Other things will have to be balanced around the buff to 2.0 and it would create a snafu to rework it all yet again. Combined with the fact we probably won't really know the full effect of this change til just before or after launch. I do think they need bumped, but only a little, they are a spread weapon like the LBX. It's designed to take advantage of holes already created by other weapons. It's not suppose to be main line concentrated heavy damage dealer, unless your in a light or fast moderately armored medium. Then they can and should be scary. I heard what Paul was saying, I considered not just the insta fix upside but the long term down side and the difficultly of changing it down the road. I would wait, it's only a couple more months, most of us have been at this 4 times as long as that or more. Just hang in there, let them get the underlying issues fixed. SRM's will probably wind up somewhere around 1.8 just shy of their TT value in the end just like LRM's. Let them do it right that's the choice he's giving u in reality.

[Barantor]

Glad that Paul is back and kicking some tail as far as balance is concerned.

I hope more is done with convergence and that Homeless Bill's suggestions or something similar is also enacted.

http://mwomercs.com/...oats-and-clans/

Honestly if you at all have problems with how convergence is covered in the game currently you should read that post.

[Kunae]

Jack Lowe, on 11 July 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

I fear we will get the SRM's buffed, however after all is said and done I don't think people will be as happy with it as they think. At which point Paul will be more than happy to let them know they chose their fate. Other things will have to be balanced around the buff to 2.0 and it would create a snafu to rework it all yet again. Combined with the fact we probably won't really know the full effect of this change til just before or after launch. I do think they need bumped, but only a little, they are a spread weapon like the LBX. It's designed to take advantage of holes already created by other weapons. It's not suppose to be main line concentrated heavy damage dealer, unless your in a light or fast moderately armored medium. Then they can and should be scary. I heard what Paul was saying, I considered not just the insta fix upside but the long term down side and the difficultly of changing it down the road. I would wait, it's only a couple more months, most of us have been at this 4 times as long as that or more. Just hang in there, let them get the underlying issues fixed. SRM's will probably wind up somewhere around 1.8 just shy of their TT value in the end just like LRM's. Let them do it right that's the choice he's giving u in reality.

Um... LRMs are at 1.1

TT LRM damage is 1.0

To get SRMs in line with that, they should be placed at 2.2 damage/missile.

[Corvus Antaka]

Jack Lowe, on 11 July 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

I fear we will get the SRM's buffed, however after all is said and done I don't think people will be as happy with it as they think. At which point Paul will be more than happy to let them know they chose their fate. Other things will have to be balanced around the buff to 2.0 and it would create a snafu to rework it all yet again. Combined with the fact we probably won't really know the full effect of this change til just before or after launch. I do think they need bumped, but only a little, they are a spread weapon like the LBX. It's designed to take advantage of holes already created by other weapons. It's not suppose to be main line concentrated heavy damage dealer, unless your in a light or fast moderately armored medium. Then they can and should be scary. I heard what Paul was saying, I considered not just the insta fix upside but the long term down side and the difficultly of changing it down the road. I would wait, it's only a couple more months, most of us have been at this 4 times as long as that or more. Just hang in there, let them get the underlying issues fixed. SRM's will probably wind up somewhere around 1.8 just shy of their TT value in the end just like LRM's. Let them do it right that's the choice he's giving u in reality.

you're being too rational for these forums bro.

as regards the heat penalties, right now they only affect the same weapons. some of you have noted the potential for srm4/6 comboes or ppc/erppc combos, which Paul has stated will be addressed on the 30th with the linking of these guns ie the er and normals, and linking the srms together etc would seem a rational choice as well.

[Rippthrough]

Well, the heat scale system is a clear as mud.

Poor new people, gonna get screwed by a system they don't even know exists and which does sweet FA to alpha builds stood 1km away who just cool back down for a little longer.

Well done.

[PropagandaWar]

Jack Lowe, on 11 July 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

I fear we will get the SRM's buffed, however after all is said and done I don't think people will be as happy with it as they think. At which point Paul will be more than happy to let them know they chose their fate. Other things will have to be balanced around the buff to 2.0 and it would create a snafu to rework it all yet again. Combined with the fact we probably won't really know the full effect of this change til just before or after launch. I do think they need bumped, but only a little, they are a spread weapon like the LBX. It's designed to take advantage of holes already created by other weapons. It's not suppose to be main line concentrated heavy damage dealer, unless your in a light or fast moderately armored medium. Then they can and should be scary. I heard what Paul was saying, I considered not just the insta fix upside but the long term down side and the difficultly of changing it down the road. I would wait, it's only a couple more months, most of us have been at this 4 times as long as that or more. Just hang in there, let them get the underlying issues fixed. SRM's will probably wind up somewhere around 1.8 just shy of their TT value in the end just like LRM's. Let them do it right that's the choice he's giving u in reality.

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe LRM's are above their TT value at 1.1. As long as splash was fixed or removed I actually believe quite the opposite will be true. I think they will be a viable honest weapon especially if they put backin the spread. I've been using SRM's since day one and usually even at 80 meters they don't all hit. The only real fear I see on this post is splat cats. Well they are nothing compaired to other beast out there. They can also slow down reload time if its that big of a concern.