1084 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

I like having new Heat Penalties, because Heat, itself, is a penalty and nothing more.

In the BattleTech Lore, Mechs generate much heat and need lots of HeatSinks for this and that reason regarding mechanics and thermal transfer and stuff... right?

Well, no.


Mechs generate a bunch of heat and cook the pilots and need tons of HeatSinks in BattleTech Lore because the Board Game Rules demand it. Heat is nothing more than a penalty meant to balance weapons, and adding Heat Penalties does not do anything to "recklessly complicate" the game other than encourage pilots to Stagger-Fire weapons. That's it. If you think being encouraged to Stagger-Fire or face a penalty makes this game too complicated, then I can't imagine how complicated it must have felt to deal all the other game's functions.

Adding a Combined-Fire Heat Penalty penalizes alpha striking, and thereby encourages both Stagger-fire and mixed loadouts. This is not the only change that's being made to the game, and you can't blame the Heat Penalties for their lack at curbing Dual PPC + Gauss sniping because they are not intended to stop PPC + Gauss Sniping. What it does is to discourage/penalize Massed PPC and Hugely Massed Laser pinpoint fire.

If you think that this will kill the Hunchback-4P, then you are not only mistaken but you clearly don't drive a Swayback very much. A Swayback pilot has choices:

• They can fire 6ML in the Hunch, and while those lasers are still burning they can then fire the 2 Arm-mounted lasers and the Head Laser to fill out the 45-point strike that burns for 1.5 seconds with no penalty at all.
  
• They can put 1 MPL and 6ML between the Hunch and Head, fire that, and while it's still burning they can fire the 2 arm MLs for no penalty at all
  
• They can use 6ML + 3MPL all day long for no penalty at all

If these accommodations are enough to make a Swayback unplayable, then it might not have been the Mech for you in the first place. I mean you can still pack 2 ERPPC n the Hunch and use it all day without penalty, too. There is a Mechlab, you know - you don't have to use all Medium Lasers all the time in your Swayback.

[ZonbiBadger]

ObsidianSpectre, on 11 July 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: This alpha strike heat penalty is one of the worst ways you could fix the current metagame problems. Balance the weapons themselves and you don't need silly "too many powerful weapons" penalties.

How do you balance them?

[Belorion]

Hopefully mixed weapons of the same type are given the same treatment. Max 2 lrm 15 but 1 15, 1 20, 1 10, ok would be contrary to the idea here. Same with SRMs.

[Selfish]

Buff SRM damage now and just revert the buff when you've chased down the phantom issue that's causing it. Splatcats can't make much of a splash versus the current 'meta'. Streaks and Splats were so effective because they could mount those weapons on a decently speedy JJ frame before HSR existed. They were insanely hard to disarm/core. That doesn't exist anymore.

On a separate PPC related note, do look into altering the two buffs that made it such a powerful weapon: Heat reduced by 2/4 for the PPC/ER PPC, and projectile speed was increased to 2000. The weapon is simply too efficient/effective for its weight. Alter that heat by 1/2 (to 9/13) and suddenly the weapon isn't so attractive to boat anymore.

I don't agree with the ghost heat scaling. It affects even stock builds that are in the game. It'll also be another 'silent' mechanic new players need to learn. Just seems to be a hamfisted approach to controlling mech design.

[Corvus Antaka]

A lot of you are really missing the point.

Alpha strike 4 ERPPC - advantage, 40 damage to 1 node on a mech, insta gib or leg on many lights. disadvantage starting tuesday will be more heat.

dual ac/20 - advantage - 40 dmg pinpoint. disadvantage starting tuesday - that's gonna cost you a lot of heat.

chainfire, no heat penalty. good luck hitting the same spot every x amount of seconds, giving your enemy a chance to move and spread the damage.

What I am getting from the QQ so far is that a lot of you are afraid that if your massive pinpoint alphas penalize you and you can't repeat them over and over you might actually have to get better at the game instead or build more balanced mechs with more than 1 weapon system on it.

Nevermind that we don't even know how high/bad these penalties will be yet.

[jozkhan]

From a game design perspective alone this new set of heat changes on top of the latest set of changes is going to result in a clustercatastraf*** of the highest order.

In actual gameplay its going to bring the game down to an epic new low. The real cheese is gonna make itself known with this, the game will never be the same (and I dont mean that in an evolved way)

It is ill conceived in the extreme and eminently breakable in a number of ways (maybe except for the learning players) The stomping will only get worse with this. It's insane that the multiple consequences of these changes have been overlooked by the Devs.

And dont get me started on the effect and consequences on the new player base (who are already failing to adjust to changes that are happening and rolling back too fast for them to absorb)

This overly complex OCD mentality to design and UI and even website (that just makes everything worse) is going to make for one hell of an opaque and thoroughly impenetratable launch.

Gonna sit this one out til it (hopefully) resolves

Edited by jozkhan, 11 July 2013 - 01:18 PM.

[Deathlike]

Prosperity Park, on 11 July 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

I like having new Heat Penalties, because Heat, itself, is a penalty and nothing more.

In the BattleTech Lore, Mechs generate much heat and need lots of HeatSinks for this and that reason regarding mechanics and thermal transfer and stuff... right?

Well, no.


Mechs generate a bunch of heat and cook the pilots and need tons of HeatSinks in BattleTech Lore because the Board Game Rules demand it. Heat is nothing more than a penalty meant to balance weapons, and adding Heat Penalties does not do anything to "recklessly complicate" the game other than encourage pilots to Stagger-Fire weapons. That's it. If you think being encouraged to Stagger-Fire or face a penalty makes this game too complicated, then I can't imagine how complicated it must have felt to deal all the other game's functions.

Adding a Combined-Fire Heat Penalty penalizes alpha striking, and thereby encourages both Stagger-fire and mixed loadouts. This is not the only change that's being made to the game, and you can't blame the Heat Penalties for their lack at curbing Dual PPC + Gauss sniping because they are not intended to stop PPC + Gauss Sniping. What it does is to discourage/penalize Massed PPC and Hugely Massed Laser pinpoint fire.

If you think that this will kill the Hunchback-4P, then you are not only mistaken but you clearly don't drive a Swayback very much. A Swayback pilot has choices:

• They can fire 6ML in the Hunch, and while those lasers are still burning they can then fire the 2 Arm-mounted lasers and the Head Laser to fill out the 45-point strike that burns for 1.5 seconds with no penalty at all.
  
• They can put 1 MPL and 6ML between the Hunch and Head, fire that, and while it's still burning they can fire the 2 arm MLs for no penalty at all
  
• They can use 6ML + 3MPL all day long for no penalty at all

If these accommodations are enough to make a Swayback unplayable, then it might not have been the Mech for you in the first place. I mean you can still pack 2 ERPPC n the Hunch and use it all day without penalty, too. There is a Mechlab, you know - you don't have to use all Medium Lasers all the time in your Swayback.

You do realize this has to be explained to newbies, before they ragepost on the boards?

There isn't even a tutorial to inform them on how it works... so tell me, how will they find out? Last I checked, the silent masses don't post on the boards, let alone read anything... how will they find this tidbit of info that is imperative to their success?

[FupDup]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 11 July 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

A lot of you are really missing the point.

Alpha strike 4 ERPPC - advantage, 40 damage to 1 node on a mech, insta gib or leg on many lights. disadvantage starting tuesday will be more heat.

dual ac/20 - advantage - 40 dmg pinpoint. disadvantage starting tuesday - that's gonna cost you a lot of heat.

chainfire, no heat penalty. good luck hitting the same spot every x amount of seconds, giving your enemy a chance to move and spread the damage.

What I am getting from the QQ so far is that a lot of you are afraid that if your massive pinpoint alphas penalize you and you can't repeat them over and over you might actually have to get better at the game instead or build more balanced mechs with more than 1 weapon system on it.

Nevermind that we don't even know how high/bad these penalties will be yet.

2 ERPPC + 2 PPC (40 point alpha) isn't going to get penalized until a later patch.

2 ERPPC + 1 Gauss is probably never going to get penalized.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 11 July 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

2 ERPPC + 2 PPC (40 point alpha) isn't going to get penalized until a later patch.

2 ERPPC + 1 Gauss is probably never going to get penalized.

I guess a 35 point alpha is the current limit.

[GroovYChickeN]

I'm ONLY ok with this idea of this max alpha idea but only if this is adjusted with quirks to allow some mech (awesome's) to break this rule.

[arkani]

This is a better idea, as per Glucose.
Each mech has its AlphaLimit, if the mechs limit is passed heat penalty is added.

Each weapon has a value of AlphaLimit to add when fired, thus each mech becomes alpha-independent of weapons.This would mean that the weapons fired in alpha would be independent of there types.

Say a mech with 15 apha.
Fire a ppc (5 alpha) + AC20 (10 alpha) = 15 so get the heat penaltie.
Fire 2 ppc (5 alpha) + Gaus (8 alpha ) + 1ML (2 alpha) = 15 so get the heat penaltie.
Fire 2 ppc (5 alpha) + 1ML (2 alpha) = 12 no heat penaltie.
and so on....

I suport taking a serious look into this as an alternative the current idea.

Glucose, on 11 July 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Yeah I feel like this is implemented a little wrong.

Wouldn't it make sense to have an Alpha Limit value of 10.

Each PPC is 5 alpha limit, each ER PPC is 5 alpha limit.

Each Ac20 is 10 alpha limit.

Now if you fire any combination of weapons in a single alpha strike you'll want to fit under the spread? Do we really care that they are exactly the same weapon type?

The interesting part of this system, is then you can assign different alpha limits to different mechs. You could let the hunchback be more of an alpha striker.. for example.

Edited by arkani, 11 July 2013 - 01:40 PM.

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 11 July 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

I guess a 35 point alpha is the current limit.

If you sacrifice a lot of tonnage you can maybe pull off 2 Gauss + 1 ERPPC on a Cataphract for 40 points.

[Malora Sidewinder]

I believe the community has spoken.

DEAL WITH IT SNIPERS

[Kmieciu]

Deathlike, on 11 July 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

I guess a 35 point alpha is the current limit.

How about AC20+2xERPPC :-)

[Dagaz]

Thank you PGI for explaining this, giving us some information we can digest, and for finally taking some action on an aspect of this game that has been causing issues for months now.

[Homeless Bill]

SRMs - Thanks for the buff. You can re-nerf whatever you want when they work correctly. Right now, I just want them to be a viable weapon.

SSRMs - Don't buff them with SRMs. Seriously.

Heat Penalties - Terrible. Convergence is the issue, and jury rigging such a delicate part of balance to fix that problem is doomed to fail. Please, please consider starting over from scratch with one of the numerous alternatives that players have proposed.

[aniviron]

Drehl, on 11 July 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

Large laser limit 2? seems a bit low and also kills 3 of my builds... (flame, trebuchet, heavy metal).. imo 3 is more appropriate.
It isn't a pinpoint damage weapon like gauss and pccs and delivering the whole damage at the same spot is much more diffficult than with ppcs.
Introducing the heat penalty and lowering the shutdown damage treshold to 100% at the same time could turn out suboptimal.
(and cause a shitstorm of epic extend...)

Ah, you've hit upon the crux of the matter. You don't like the large laser change, because it affects you and some of your mechs personally. But this is the big problem with the alpha penalty- the people who don't drive mechs hurt by this don't care, and you're only slightly affected, so it's not a big deal from your point of view. As far as I am concerned, 6 large lasers is more appropriate, because I own an AWS-8Q and what the hell am I supposed to do with 80 tons and six energy hardpoints with nothing else? The real question that should be asked is not "why is the number of weapons in the penalty x," but rather, "why is there a penalty in the first place when the only weapon which is a problem when boated is the ppc?" Maybe it would just be easier to increase ppc heat by 1 or 2, er by 2 or 3? Or slow down the projectile 15%?

I also suspect that you are right about the boating penalty coming in the same patch as 100% heat causing damage. There will be a lot of overheating, and it will all cause damage. I'm just surprised to see so few people in this thread complaining about, let alone noticing, that having the damage penalty be at 100% instead of 120 completely invalidates shutdown as a gameplay mechanic. The whole point of a shutdown is to avoid internal damage, you don't cool off any faster while shut down. So if you're going to take internal damage when you go over 100% anyway, why would you ever not override? If you're taking internal damage anyway, it's better to at least not be a stationary target while doing so. It used to be a serious tactical choice I had to make sometimes- do I overheat a little to try and finish off that enemy, is it worth it? If I overheat, do I override? The first is still a valid question, although the risk is now much greater for the same reward. But it is now always worth it to override if you are going to overheat. There's just no question about it. Slightly more internal damage in exchange for not getting your cockpit blown out is no choice at all.

[Kunae]

Malora Sidewinder, on 11 July 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

I believe the community has spoken.

DEAL WITH IT SNIPERS

It's not going to hurt snipers one bit.

[Deathlike]

Kmieciu, on 11 July 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

How about AC20+2xERPPC :-)

I've seen Atlai, Highlanders, and a Cataphract with that once... it was terribad.

[Koniving]

How I perform with the current SRMs.


This is what SRMs used to do at 2.5 damage per missile with a similar build. Note: over 80% of the damage dealt here is within the first 20 or so seconds of footage. This was also back with the bonus damage from splash making them do up to 15 damage or so per missile.


Other than slight damage increases, a change up or down won't do much so long as the splash doesn't get increased.

What I'd really like to know is what's going to happen with the splash damage mechanic? Will we eventually have them correctly taking SRM's per missile total damage and then spreading 25% of that damage in splash, rather than 25% additional damage?

Because if we get that fix, then we might get the PPC fix implied by Russ Bullock in NGNG 79 (32 minutes to 40 minutes in) where PPCs would do 7 damage on the actual impact point, and spread 25% to neighboring sections totalling 10 damage but not pinpoint.

Edited by Koniving, 11 July 2013 - 02:02 PM.