1084 replies to this topic

[AntharPrime]

Half of my builds are "boats" of one sort or another. This isn't because of min/maxing the damage, it's because my mouse only has 2 buttons and I can't switch between weapon groups during battle. One of my Highlanders has only one AC10, tag and 50 shot lrms because of this necessity. My Altas has 2 UAC5s and 4 mls, so does my K2, I try to keep all my builds down to 2-3 weapon groups because using more is inefficient in a fight. PPCs emerged as a good weapon because medium lasers don't reach very far but that is the very nature of Battletech and this will change once ER medium lasers get introduced.

The situation where PPC boats become a problem is where players team drop and coordinate through TS to maximize the efficiency of the boats. If pugs had in-game VOIP they could counter this with a little teamwork and I have seen this done when a couple of fast typers dropped in the pugs and had a mind for tactics. Typically if some lights can get in and cause enough havoc, the heavy brawlers can close while the team's lrms can weaken the PPC boats from the locks the lights are giving them. I have seen this tactic work over and over again and only the best(or luckiest) team of PPC boats can survive it.

I have been mastering my Commandos over the past month and believe me I know how it feels to be unlucky enough to turn the corner with a 6 PPC Stalker planting it's crosshairs on your mech for a shot that cores you two times over, but I don't believe that this heat penalty is the answer.

[Nebelfeuer]

AntharPrime, on 13 July 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Half of my builds are "boats" of one sort or another. This isn't because of min/maxing the damage, it's because my mouse only has 2 buttons and I can't switch between weapon groups during battle.

you ever tryed changing the keybinding of additinal weapongroups to somewhere you can comfortably reach on the device used for your other hand? A two-button mouse is not an excuse here.

[Team Leader]

Nebelfeuer, on 13 July 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

you ever tryed changing the keybinding of additinal weapongroups to somewhere you can comfortably reach on the device used for your other hand? A two-button mouse is not an excuse here.

I would say it is. I use E for targeting (it's much more convenient, try it!) and Q to look at allies health. If I had to bind those to weapons I would be missing some good functionality.

[Zankar]

If they are going to have a stacking heat penalty why would you do it by weapon types? That makes no sense. Why would you be able to fire 3 PPC and have it generate more heat solely because it is three of the same type but be able to fire two PPC and a Gauss and have no extra heat than what the weapons normaly generate? If there is going to be a stacking penalty it should be a flat stacking percent across all weapons. For every weapon beyond two being fired within a set window of time should make every weapon fired generate a percent more heat than if it was fired solo or duo. For an example I'll use a 10% stacking penalty. If you fire two PPC, they would generate 16 (8+8) as normal, but if you fire two PPC (8 heat) and a Gauss (1 heat) they would generate 18.7 (8+8+1+10%) rather than 17. If you fired a second Gauss with them it would be 21.6 (8+8+1+1+20%). rather than 18. Obviously IGP would have to figure out the best percentage to use.

This makes more sense to me because we are piloting a metal vehicle, that is filled with electric motors (foot actuators, ect), an engine, tons of assorted electronics and loaded with weapons, all of which generate heat. So it is entirely possible for heat generated in one spot to effect another. It has already been done with going over 100% heat threshold damaging the center torso. The entire mech is heating up not just the indivual weapon system, that is the nature of metal.

Also a random idea pertaining to heat dissipation. If you put a heat sink in the same location as a weapon, shouldn't it be more effective at reducing heat than a heat sink located somewhere else on the mech?

[Gwaihir]

arghmace, on 13 July 2013 - 02:52 AM, said:

Excellent post by Gwaihir, especially about how tonnage limits would lead to less snipers. One thing, though:



Another way to look at this is that mech health is not too low but heat cap is too high. If firing a sniper alpha would take you on the verge of shutdown, all would be well. Or... you could also say that weapon recycle times are too fast. I really do not think that the already doubled mech health should be increased further. It becomes quite ridiculous in a way that a single medium laser is basically only able to scratch the paint off.

Well, lowering base heat capacity certainly would be a good way to nerf weapons that deal very inefficient damage per heat. The majority of any mech's heat capacity comes from it's base value, 32. 32 + (10 shs or 2 * engine dhs ) + (1 * external shs or 1.4 * external DHS. Reducing base capacity directly reduces the amount of burst all mechs can put out before hitting the heat cap and throttling their DPS down.

The only problems I have with it is that it inordinately impacts the trial mechs, or all mechs with SHS, really. The last thing the game needs is for people using trial mechs to have an even more miserable experience. Increasing health/increasing TTL, instead, gives everyone more margin for error in their play. One second caught out of position will not mean you take critical crippling damage (generally).

Another tact I am a fan of is not cone of fire, but instead reticule sway for torso weapons based on your mech's footsteps. That adds to the skill cap for snipers, without adding awful RNG elements associated with "Cone of fire" type systems. If a sniper chooses to stay sitting in place to get easier shots, then they become much easier to bypass, to set up for hammer/anvil type flank and kills, or any number of other bad things. The best way to lose a game is to sit still, remove your initiative, and force yourself to respond to enemy movements instead of having them responding to yours.

[Master Q]

AntharPrime, on 13 July 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Half of my builds are "boats" of one sort or another. This isn't because of min/maxing the damage, it's because my mouse only has 2 buttons and I can't switch between weapon groups during battle. One of my Highlanders has only one AC10, tag and 50 shot lrms because of this necessity. My Altas has 2 UAC5s and 4 mls, so does my K2, I try to keep all my builds down to 2-3 weapon groups because using more is inefficient in a fight. PPCs emerged as a good weapon because medium lasers don't reach very far but that is the very nature of Battletech and this will change once ER medium lasers get introduced.

The situation where PPC boats become a problem is where players team drop and coordinate through TS to maximize the efficiency of the boats. If pugs had in-game VOIP they could counter this with a little teamwork and I have seen this done when a couple of fast typers dropped in the pugs and had a mind for tactics. Typically if some lights can get in and cause enough havoc, the heavy brawlers can close while the team's lrms can weaken the PPC boats from the locks the lights are giving them. I have seen this tactic work over and over again and only the best(or luckiest) team of PPC boats can survive it.

I have been mastering my Commandos over the past month and believe me I know how it feels to be unlucky enough to turn the corner with a 6 PPC Stalker planting it's crosshairs on your mech for a shot that cores you two times over, but I don't believe that this heat penalty is the answer.

There are these things called number keys, right above your WASD...

[Jman5]

Darkside7777, on 12 July 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

******* jesus ******* christ. Did they really think that the option of NOT increasing SRM damage would win? Are they delaying the damage increase until next patch just because of this stupid vote? SRMS SHOULD destroy larger mechs quickly, that gives mediums and lights a fighting chance against the assault spam.

Of course they know it will win. They are just worried it will cause imbalance so they are shifting the blame on the players. "Well we gave you the option and you guys wanted this in. We're just doing what you all tell us..."

Now I just hope they have the foresight to keep streak damage as is, because it will screw everything up if it gets a damage buff too.

[Ningyo]

In his original post if I remember right when he proposed this idea and everyone yelled OH PLEASE GOD NO!

He said it would be 5 more heat for first weapon over, 10 for second, 20 for third, 40 for fourth type of thing. He may have changed his mind on this however as this post did not seem to mention the penalties.

And having a 2 button mouse is a good reason to use fewer weapon types, though I would suggest getting a 5 or more button mouse they are easy to find. but you try using forward, right and left to swivel back and forth, jumpjets, and 2+ weapon fire keys all at once with one hand. Its possible, but very very hard. So yes he does have a good reason to boat weapons of similar types.
Its kind of like after other people die they often yell at me in chat to turn off zoom, or use nightvision. They are right EXCEPT I am using a laptop that can barely handle the game so I get about 7-12 FPS, but if I zoom in my FPS gets maybe 15% better, and using nightvision or thermal drops my FPS by 10-20% (also river city and frozen city I get only 5-10 FPS because of higher poly counts I suspect and those are only ones you need vision on anyway) Playing differently because of hardware is smart, BUT it has nothing to do with game balance.

Edited by Ningyo, 13 July 2013 - 08:11 AM.

[Deathlike]

You can reroute the use of the wheel on the wheel mouse to 1 more weapon group. It's default function is zoom.. but zoom is pretty easy to access as is on the keyboard (and can be reconfigured anyways)...

If it's a straight 2 button mouse... why haven't you gotten a simple basic wheel mouse?

[DeaconW]

Sephlock, on 13 July 2013 - 01:51 AM, said:

For the love of god if this must be done just do it to PPCs and nothing else.

And then we do it to the next "OP" weapon people gravitate to? When does it stop? I'll say it again...the "Max alpha" idea is flawed and brings more problems than it fixes. Fix perfect convergence, then use heat and cycle time changes to adjust weapons balance.

[FireSlade]

I do not know why but it actually surprises me that the community cannot figure out how to group fire.,, This new Alpha Max mechanic only limits the number of weapon that you can fire at once. You will still be able to take the Splat Cat out with 6 SRM6s and the 6 PPC Stalkers out without any additional heat. All you have to do to avoid the penalty for the Splat Cat is set group fire 1 to fire 3 SRM6s and group 2 to fire the other 3 SRM6s then take it out and fire 1 wait 0.5 seconds then fire group 2. If you want to be perfect about it just use the macros that you already have installed to chain fire the groups 0.5 sec. apart. Same goes for the 4-6 PPC Stalker, fire 2 wait, fire 2, wait fire 2, and the cooldown should be close to done so you can start all over again.

This nerf only tries to spread the damage since it forces you to wait (or get a penalty) and finding the same spot again becomes much harder again half a second later. PPCs are balanced and need to keep their stats otherwise why take something that only does 1 point damage more for an extra 2 tons and a crit slot. Slow them down and you only make them more compatible with the Gauss Rifle and if you decrease their speed too much well the AC20 will match them easier. The real issues are with the heat system (needs more penalties) and the fact that we have instant convergence. I am not saying get rid of convergence; I am saying to slow it down. I know that the Devs. do not want to add many random variables but truth is being able to hammer a nail into something at 900 meters is what made the PPC/Gauss/AC20 OP. You do not see complaints about how OP that the Large Laser is do you? Why? Because it deals its damage over time same with the Large Pulse Laser (which is the most powerful energy weapon at this time). The PPC deals it instantly to the exact point that the other PPCs on your mech did.

Until Heat and Convergence are addressed this game will never come close to any form of balance with everyone just swapping the Meta every time the developers nerf/buff something. Something that all of you are doing already to overcome the new Alpha Max.

[arghmace]

Gwaihir, on 13 July 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

Well, lowering base heat capacity certainly would be a good way to nerf weapons that deal very inefficient damage per heat. The majority of any mech's heat capacity comes from it's base value, 32. 32 + (10 shs or 2 * engine dhs ) + (1 * external shs or 1.4 * external DHS. Reducing base capacity directly reduces the amount of burst all mechs can put out before hitting the heat cap and throttling their DPS down.

The only problems I have with it is that it inordinately impacts the trial mechs, or all mechs with SHS, really. The last thing the game needs is for people using trial mechs to have an even more miserable experience.

Lowering base heat capacity is not what I want, no. Instead I've earlier suggested that there should be only the base cap. Heat sinks shouldn't raise it at all. That way you can easily control how many types of certain weapons you can alpha strike. This would actually make single heat sinks and trial mechs more viable.

EDIT: Check the first item on my balance overhaul topic:
http://mwomercs.com/...lance-overhaul/

Edited by arghmace, 13 July 2013 - 08:49 AM.

[The Strange]

Tennex, on 11 July 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

Could always do this:

That just lets you run up and hug them, then put 3 SRM6 straight into the center torso. With a bump to 2 damage per missile, you have just created another 36 point single location shot that gets around the heat penalty.

[EVA1313]

I keep thinking that if you limit the space of a mount i.e on the Catapult PPC load out then you would not have those Gauss cats but have to find a different load out (AC 2, AC5) instead of the factory MG. It would also make the mechs more unique.

[Otto Cannon]

For the record, I don't think addressing the lack of a convergence mechanic by penalising non-frankenmech builds with heat penalties is the right way to go. It would be nice if I'm proven wrong and everything works out perfectly, but I can't see how that's likely at the moment.

[Sephlock]

HansBlix WMD, on 13 July 2013 - 04:22 AM, said:

Has the amount of heat penalty been written anywhere? Especially for AC/40s?

He said the heat would increase exponentially.

[Sasha Volkova]

OH MY GAWD!!

The poll is going in favor of buffing to 2.0 damage...
Well I guess we all now what that means...

EVERYONE!! MAN YOUR SPLATCATS!!

THIS IS THE DAY OF RECKONING!
FOR SOME IT IS A DAY OF TERROR!
BUT FOR OTHERS IT IS A DAY OF SALVATION!
BRING UPON THY ENEMY THE FURY OF 6xSRM6!
BRING UPON THY ENEMY AN APLHA OF 72 POINTS OF DAMAGE!
CRIPPLE THE OPPOSITION!
TAKE FROM THEM EVERYTHING!
THIS DAY MARKS THE BEGINNING OF SRM-GEDDON!
THE END OF ALL THAT IS LONG RANGE!

[Deathlike]

Methinks someone is overreacting to the dreaded revival of the Splatcat...

For a mech that MUST be under 270m to be effective... you can still be countered by Seismic for awareness (especially if you lack that altogether). Those things don't even really affect the PPC meta considering if you can already counter the AC40 Jagers and K2 with PPCs... this is nothing.

[Butane9000]

0okami, on 13 July 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

OH MY GAWD!!

The poll is going in favor of buffing to 2.0 damage...
Well I guess we all now what that means...

EVERYONE!! MAN YOUR SPLATCATS!!

THIS IS THE DAY OF RECKONING!
FOR SOME IT IS A DAY OF TERROR!
BUT FOR OTHERS IT IS A DAY OF SALVATION!
BRING UPON THY ENEMY THE FURY OF 6xSRM6!
BRING UPON THY ENEMY AN APLHA OF 72 POINTS OF DAMAGE!
CRIPPLE THE OPPOSITION!
TAKE FROM THEM EVERYTHING!
THIS DAY MARKS THE BEGINNING OF SRM-GEDDON!
THE END OF ALL THAT IS LONG RANGE!

My god the drama.

You're forgetting to factor in the heat changes. Notice how they capped SRM6's at 3 per volley? Splat cats that use 6 will be hard pressed when they massively over heat. We're more likely to see 3 SRM6 zombie centurions again then we are Splat cats.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

2.0 is where SRMs should be. You don't have nearly as many missiles as an LRM launcher gets, and the rate of fire is too low for that to compensate, so they need their base damage back to the starting point. Balance it from there, not from the emergency-stop-gap 1.5 damage that it's at now.

Best would be to keep SSRM damage where it is until the upcoming guidance fix goes live, at which point they should join SRMs at the 2.0 damage level.