1084 replies to this topic

[DisasterMedic]

JohnnyWayne, on 15 July 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

Its not? Enlighten us! ... This is it? Tonnage limits?... Dude you know that for example Steiner lances are mostly heavy / assaults? Its not uncommon....

Seeing as your entire post makes no sense, I'm going to assume you are laying out issues that actually are problematic to the game and agree with what I presume you meant to point out.

1) By focusing first on Elo and second on tonnage, matchmaker favors using as many assaults as possible. This reduces build diversity and overall fun of the game.

Actually, I think that was the only point you were trying to make but it is wholly impossible to discern for certain.

[Deathlike]

Maybe I should be glad that I missed the patch hour rage. I suddenly feel lonely because I'm laughing.

I'll report back on some of the new heat scale foibles.

Edited by Deathlike, 16 July 2013 - 12:52 PM.

[Nulnoil]

Enjoy my feedback PGI. Bye-bye. DOTA2, here I come!

[Pht]

Niko Snow, on 11 July 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

Tell us what you think of the latest news on heat scale from Paul.

… *Thunder booms in the distance*…

Arriving for June 16th… heat scale on high weapon count alphas.

As promised, once systems are in place for new balancing/tuning features, I will let you know about them as they enter test. What we have seen so far is very positive. There are some tweaks that need to be done but those will come with subsequent patches. The key here is to get this feature enabled to allow you, the Beta testers to see the effects and adjust your gameplay or meta-gameplay as needed.

This is very experimental and is being addressed aggressively as I mentioned in my previous weapons update. The first set of numbers are for the immediate effect on the current meta-game but more weapons and balancing will occur with each patch you see on our path to Launch. That being said, here is a table of maximum weapons of each weapon type you can fire without incurring the heat penalty. Internally we call this value Max Alpha.

Taking damage beyond 120% heat.
This value is going to be reduced to 100%. Depending on how long you're in a state of overheat will determine how much damage you take. If you overheat by 1 point and are only in overheat for a very short amount of time, you probably won't take any damage at all.

How does this address the eventual addition of assault class omnimechs that will be able to mount 4 gauss rifles or lots of cool running heavy ballistics?

How does this address low heat DPS builds who can chisel a part of quickly at any given range?

How does this address stock builds in mechs like the stalker and others that have VERY high heat profiles, stock, which will make them lesser than other 'mechs that they're supposed to be better than?

---

The problem isn't just the PPC or heavy energy builds.

The problem is that the 'mech's ability to aim each individual weapon from the lore hasn't been modeled in any sort of robust way. Doing so would fix the PPC boating; it would fix future ballistics boating; it would allow mechs that are stock built with obscenely high heat for obscenely high damage curves to fit the roles they were designed for; it would reward player skill and give the game more replay value (read, $$$$$$$ income), not to mention it would have the 'mechs behaving like they do in the lore, which would make the game far more fun and less one/two dimensional.

This is a fix of a symptom.

Not a fix of what's causing the symptoms.

[Otto Cannon]

I like what they've done with the streaks in this patch. So streaks are now like SRM2 but with half a ton of extra equipment that makes them do much less damage and automatically miss any vital locations.

Considering we've been told that normal SRMs along with most other non-laser weapons are having trouble hitting lights at the moment, was this really the best time?

Edited by Otto Cannon, 16 July 2013 - 02:00 PM.

[Jakob Knight]

Kunae, on 16 July 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

No. Raising the heat for individual weapons would get them back to where they were before PGI buffed them. That is the point. People aren't asking for a nerf, they want a buff reversed.

In comparison to pretty much all other weapons, PPC's in MWO are better than every other weapon in the game. Let's get them back to their canon heat-levels and then we can see if there's some other part that needs to be fixed.

PGI's problem is that rather than do something as simple, and logical, as this, they'll throw on some broad-brush complicated system which punishes everyone, rather than addresses the issue.

And the issue is that they reduced the heat on PPCs and ERPPCs, in the first place.

They reduced the heat on many other weapons as well, and yet only PPCs and ERPPCs are being adjusted. And not in a way that is going to reduce the number of them used in excess of the 'recommended' number. PPCs and ERPPCs are already among the hottest-running weapons in the game (if not the hottest), and this seems to be flying in the face of adjustments based on 'boating'.

Also, the PPC/ERPPC is -not- better than any other weapon in the game. Lasers do more pinpoint damage with lower heat and autocannon do more damage quicker with almost no heat buildup. Indeed, the reason you see most assassin builds revolving around UAC/5, AC/20, and Guass Rifles are because these weapons are functionally superior to the PPC/ERPPC in most respects. The -only- place that the PPC/ERPPC can overtake these weapons is the ability to fit larger numbers of these to a mech, exactly what the heat change is meant to -encourage- (higher heat for normal usage, reduced penalties for excessive mounting of these weapons).

So, no. This change does not put the PPC/ERPPC back where it 'should be', as no other weapons are similarly being 'unbuffed' at the same time, and the action is contrary to the purposes for the action.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 16 July 2013 - 02:03 PM.

[TehSBGX]

WolvesX, on 15 July 2013 - 11:03 PM, said:

I'm going to start this off by telling you guys a little something about me. On of the First PC games I ever played as a kid was Mechwarrior 2: mercenaries. I just got a computer with windows 95 and my friends told me the two games to have were MW2 and Warcraft. I loved both games dearly. Sure I was 12 and I had no clue what made game balance good but I remember how the graphics blew me away. Everything was so different compared to what I was used used to with my SNES, when I played i was immersed in that game, it was a new world to me and I loved it. I loved Warcraft too, but thats a different story.

I'm here now, loving the nostalgia value of this game. I'm 30, and this game makes me happy because it lets me have the same sense awe and wonder i felt when I was a child. But I'm an adult now so I understand game balance. Paul's heat system is not balance, it will fix nothing people will either flat out ignore it and boat anyways or find new ways to abuse the meta. It will make the new player experience even more brutal, and this game is already hard on newbies.

I dropped cash on Project Phoenix, Because I do love this game. I have massive amounts of respect for the founders because they got the game off the ground.

Here is why I believe Paul's System could very well KILL this game.

1. New players aren't going to understand why they get heat penalties for firing more than X amount of weapon Y at a time. Some mechs come stock that will be punished by the system, and new players are going to go through a new level of hell because of it. A new player will see a black jack with 8 medium lasers and think, "hey they seems cool!" not knowing how Paul's Folly will torture them.

2. It only shifts the meta it does not fix it. Many people have pointed out how this doesn't do anything to adress mechs with double ppc and Gauss. Sure Quad PPC stalkers might become rare, but this brings in the ppc/gauss bread and butter combo into the fray in greater numbers. A Far more simple middle finger to PPC snipers is to slow down the projectile and raise the heat, a simple de-buff. Restoring the projectile speed and heat to where it was before the buff lets the ppc be a respectable weapon with out being the Wrath of Thor himself.

3. Some builds don't need to be fixed. 8ml Blackjacks and Swaybacks aren't even close to OP. ML boats are incredibly average and aren't even close to wrecking the meta. LRM boats aren't OP either, the second you get in their face they're as weak as a little girl, ecm shuts them down, you can dodge lrms, cover works wonders. Also a splash bug is what made srm cats nasty not boating, now they'll run into the same problem Jagerbombs and all brawlers/ skirmishers face, Siesmic makes your job harder.

So TL;DR version. I love Mechwarrior, but Paul's Folly is going to cause severe amounts of damage to the game.

BUT I THINK NO ONE OF THE DEVS WILL EVER READ THIS SADLY.

I'm happy some one payed attention to my post before it got locked

[Deathlike]

So... I learned that the 2 PPC + 1 ERPPC + 1 Gauss HGN-732 works just the same.

Working as intended™.

[Victor Morson]

Deathlike, on 16 July 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

So... I learned that the 2 PPC + 1 ERPPC + 1 Gauss HGN-732 works just the same.

Working as intended™.

Just about to post this. Streaks are now complete garbage that home in on limbs more than the chest, too, so now I'm running SRM instead of Streaks.

But you know what? I take back everything I said. All the poor PUG gamers they care so much about? They're trying to adapt and they are getting massacred.

Thank you PGI for enabling easy mode for people that know how to build 'mechs. This is even funnier than before because now I don't have to look out for AC20 Jaggers anymore! LOL

Edited by Victor Morson, 16 July 2013 - 03:02 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Victor Morson, on 16 July 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

Just about to post this. Streaks are now complete garbage that home in on limbs more than the chest, too, so now I'm running SRM instead of Streaks.

But you know what? I take back everything I said. All the poor PUG gamers they care so much about? They're trying to adapt and they are getting massacred.

Thank you PGI for enabling easy mode for people that know how to build 'mechs. This is even funnier than before because now I don't have to look out for AC20 Jaggers anymore! LOL

I figured this might happen.

Waste of time patch. Guess no Phoenix early bird special for me.

[3rdworld]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 16 July 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

I figured this might happen.

Waste of time patch. Guess no Phoenix early bird special for me.

Until Paul is fired, it is the same for me.

[Deathlike]

3rdworld, on 16 July 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

Until Paul is fired, it is the same for me.

You rang?

[Morlokk]

Victor Morson, on 16 July 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

Just about to post this. Streaks are now complete garbage that home in on limbs more than the chest, too, so now I'm running SRM instead of Streaks.

But you know what? I take back everything I said. All the poor PUG gamers they care so much about? They're trying to adapt and they are getting massacred.

Thank you PGI for enabling easy mode for people that know how to build 'mechs. This is even funnier than before because now I don't have to look out for AC20 Jaggers anymore! LOL

I have a lot of mechs with a lot of different configurations. But my dual AC20 was one of my favorite. Now with a slight modification, i have one ac20 and one gauss, so now i have no heat issues and the ability to engage in long distance.

But i do agree with what Geminus was saying earlier, all the heating aspect are there, if you learn how to engage, or not engage certain types of "boat" mechs you will be fine, the pro and cons of having a "boat" build were already in place. There is just too many complainers out there.

Why doesn't PGI listen to all the people bitching about the costs of Mechs and do something about that.

[pesco]

When will PGI clue up to the fact that the only way to avoid large numbers of weapons hitting the same spot at the same time for massive damage is to make large numbers of weapons not hit the same spot at the same time?

[Hythos]

PhoenixFire55, on 16 July 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

It is not because it is not making any sense whatsoever.
......
Its arbitrary chosen numbers, and we already know that when thinking and decision making is involved PGI fails so very often.

Assume that they do know what they're doing, and there's a good reason for it. Everything I could speculate, brings me back to Aliens. Er, I mean Clans.

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 16 July 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

why must you all insist on alphaing everything? do you all have 1 button mice?

I've been in MANY Battletech fights with a host of weapons which would incur heat - and chose to Alpha-strike, knowing the consequences.
I have played MANY MANY MANY Battletech matches where I used balanced load-outs to not over-heat - and still Alpha'd every round.

Yes, this was 10-sec rounds, but still - Alpha. Optimum builds = optimum output.

[hammerreborn]

pesco, on 16 July 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

When will PGI clue up to the fact that the only way to avoid large numbers of weapons hitting the same spot at the same time for massive damage is to make large numbers of weapons not hit the same spot at the same time?

But weapons not hitting the same spot just makes high damage alphas that much more important because any duration weapons now do even less focused damage than currently.

[Corvus Antaka]

Hythos, on 16 July 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

Assume that they do know what they're doing, and there's a good reason for it. Everything I could speculate, brings me back to Aliens. Er, I mean Clans.

I've been in MANY Battletech fights with a host of weapons which would incur heat - and chose to Alpha-strike, knowing the consequences.
I have played MANY MANY MANY Battletech matches where I used balanced load-outs to not over-heat - and still Alpha'd every round.

Yes, this was 10-sec rounds, but still - Alpha. Optimum builds = optimum output.

mech3 - supernova.

alpha 6 er larges, die.

count yourself lucky MWO is so forgiving.

[No7]

Geminus, on 16 July 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

If I build a mech that fire 3 Large lasers, Im going to build it smartly, im going to give the appropriate heat sinks and balance the speed, armor etc.

... you should be happy when players "boat" they are giving you the stragey to kill them. Stop standing 800 meters away in the open and cursing the OP LRM mech, take cover, move in close. coordinate with your team mates, that what their there for.

So what you are saying is that this is a "thinking man's FPS"? Wow.. imagine that.

[pesco]

hammerreborn, on 16 July 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

But weapons not hitting the same spot just makes high damage alphas that much more important because any duration weapons now do even less focused damage than currently.

No, it may make high per-shot damage more important, not high alpha (all weapons together) damage. Don't confuse the two.

So you're saying, for instance, an AC20 will be at an advantage over, say, 4 medium lasers (which add to the same per-shot damage)? That is exactly as it should be, compare the Swayback (HBK-4P) which mounts 6ML in place of the 4G's AC20. This is exactly what makes the ML in Battletech an interesting weapon; it does the highest damage per ton and space, but if you want all that damage focused you need a bigger gun.

That PGI don't understand this shows how much they really know about the franchise they are making a game for.

[aniviron]

HEY PAUL THAT HEAT SCALE WORKED OUT GREAT, HERE IS A SCREENSHOT OF IT PREVENTING AN OPPONENT FROM TAKING A PINPOINT HIGH DAMAGE BUILD WHILE I AM TOTALLY NOT FORCED TO TAKE A WEAPON I DON'T WANT OR NEED ON MY BRAWLER TO PREVENT HEAT PENALTIES



On the plus side, SRMs seem pretty reasonable at 2.0 damage/missile, and they feel viable without being OP.

Edited by aniviron, 17 July 2013 - 01:30 AM.