70 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

http://mwomercs.com/...general-update/

I officially give up. I can't believe you guys are going on with the with this heat system. Literally everyone has told you it's stupid. Everyone has told you why it's stupid. At great lengths, it gets brought up every time an example of "stupid PGI decision making" comes up.

I've officially come to the conclusion you don't care about any audience except apparently whoever you have involved in balancing the game. Not the casuals, not the hardcore.. there's no way you could get that kind of overwhelming feedback then go "Naw it's cool" and announce it anyway.

I had honestly expected that you would cancel it based on every logical argument thrown at it, because it's one of the dumbest systems ever. Yes, dumbest, because it literally is an unworkable system that creates tons of problems without solving any of them.

I honestly thought that Russ Reedit interview was a troll. How shocked and disappointed I am that it was not.

I'm going to go through them, slowly, once more - at least the main points. There were tons of good points I'm probably not beginning to touch on, but seriously:

It doesn't impact meta weapons: As stated by everyone, if 3 PPCs is a problem, people go 2 PPC 1 Gauss; if Medium Lasers are a problem they mix in Large. This does nothing for pinpoint alphas.

It's stupidly overcomplicated: Simply put, there's no advantage to be gained from ghost heat but a whole lot of confusion, even from veteran players. Even if the UI clearly indicated it, this adds a really terrible dynamic to mechlab.

It hurts the people that need help most: You're seriously reducing the number that can be fired on small guns (Such as SRMs)? My God. You are smashing one of the last semi-viable brawling options left that were already in need of help. And seriously, the heat to the Streak is insane - why even have the weapon if you're going to blast it out of existence like this? ALL OF THIS WITHOUT HURTING ALPHAs.

--

Between this and the fact they keep insisting how much we'll love 3PV despite overwhelming resistance, I am beginning to believe the reason they do not listen to us is because they really don't care if anyone is even playing MW:O. They can't be. They wouldn't be tacking into the wind like this otherwise - because nobody's enjoying the gun balance, or at least for long, and nothing they are doing is requested or wanted.

Seriously, this goes beyond not taking suggestion. This whole alpha nerf system was dismantled by the community, even people who hate alpha strikes (I happen to like alpha strikes), because the way it works if fundamentally flawed. There is literally no threshold number you can set to improve it, because it's just plain broken!

There is simply unacceptable. I may well opt out of PP, something I was definitely getting and I am curious if anyone else feels the same. This isn't about JUST the alpha system - it certainly is about that as well - but more a desire to send a clear message that if they are going to continue pulling literal "screw yous" to the community like this, we actually aren't going to take it anymore. This is getting insane. Literally everyone thinks something is a bad idea and calmly explains why then you honestly announce it and expect people to be happy? Like I said, insane!

That thunder booming in the distance Paul? That's the screams of everyone fed up with the death grip the balance team has on an otherwise excellent game, and our frustration that they are choking the life out of it as slowly and painfully as possible.

EDIT: Also, you're nerfing Large Lasers? Really? The weapon that got overwhelmingly voted as a the perfect baseline? Did MechWarrior traumatize someone as a child that now has a chance to kill the whole franchise and is doing their best to take it?

Edited by Victor Morson, 11 July 2013 - 10:42 PM.

[Appogee]

Victor Morson, on 11 July 2013 - 09:56 PM, said:

I officially give up.

Ok then.

/thread

Edited by Appogee, 11 July 2013 - 10:02 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Appogee, on 11 July 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

Ok.

/thread

I have given up hope that they are doing anything more than having "You know what would be so cool man?" sessions, followed by them laughing about the "forum whiners" all while wondering why numbers are low. Then someone from marketing goes "Oh, it must be the third person" and they all pat each other on the back about a good job done.

Can you really see any other scenario at this point?

I half expect to see PGI on Kotaku this time next year talking about what went wrong and saying "Oh I guess there weren't enough battletech fans " or something at this rate.

Edited by Victor Morson, 11 July 2013 - 10:05 PM.

[MisterFiveSeven]

Here's my problem with it:

WHY!?

It makes no sense. 3PV makes sense; there is a reasonable (if one that I disagree with) rationalization for its inclusion.

The only reason I can think of is because they will never touch pinpoint alpha's as it is a necessary condition to satisfy the majority of today's FPS gamers who are their main target audience. They would get frustarted and stop playing because they feel like there weapons don't go where they point the reticle.

(^again, rationaliztion, not necessarily how I feel)

And that means this game will never get any better.

[Brilig]

I'm really not happy with their intended fix either. There were several far better ideas proposed by the community. Ideas that actually would have fixed the problem.

[The Strange]

Wow bro, calm down. Either you like the product they are creating, or you don't. But you really shouldn't expect to have a huge impact on the design. You play test it, give them feedback, and they decide what feedback to implement or not. Why do you take it so personally that they don't do everything you tell them to, especially when you rant at them about it and call them names.

Sometimes I think people on these forums are confused about the difference between a beta tester and a developer.

[Victor Morson]

This doesn't even make sense in that context, because it literally only hurts builds that don't need hurting (3 LL, etc.) but totally doesn't impact the sniper meta.. it's just a stupid system with no reason to exist and everyone has explained it over and over..

I might not see eye to eye with all of you, but there are some issues where 90% of us - from every philosophy in this game - are in agreement. And this proposed heat system was one of them. It doesn't even hold up to 5 minutes of rational thought, how on Earth can a team of engineers think this was a good idea?

Did Paul just not bother to read the feedback while on vacation so left the coder team to do a 4AM napkin-scribbled plan, only to come home and go "Welp, we coded it so by God we're gonna use!"?

I do not know what to say anymore. This is just has gone to 11.

[Unbound Inferno]

I guess i"ll answer Yes to the PPCash-in they got going now. I wasn't going ot buy it anyway with how things are now.

Unless they really start listening and get a proper balance into this game, I'm not sticking around at launch.

[Team Leader]

As angry as this post is I pretty much agree with it. The new heat system is beyond belief stupid and does nothing to fix the actual problems!

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Do you remember what mechs people have complained about in the past.

• the 9 md laser fastback
  
• the 7 md laser Awesome
  
• the 6 md laser jenner
  
• the 2 gauss catapult
  
• the 6 SSRM2 catapult
  
• the 3 LRM20 atlas/4 LRM15 awesome/6 LRM6 catapult
  
• the 6 SRM6 catapult
  
• the 6 PPC stalker
  
• the 4 PPC Gauss stalker
  
• the 3 PPC Gauss Highlander
  
• ad infinitum

Now look what they all have in common (except one). It is boating a crapton of weapons, usually in the cheap/lightweight model. Now look at what PGI is trying to address.

The simple solution is to limit hardpoints MW4 style, but PGI has decided to avoid that so you don't have conniption fit. The next simplest solution is to adjust heat/range/damage/projectile speed, all things that are easy to implement and change.

[Appogee]

I thought you officially gave up?

But seriously, perhaps the real problem here is that some of us want MWO to be a hardcore competitive Mech game, which is mostly faithful to the traditions of the franchise.

PGI however are increasingly intent on producing an easy to play mass market title. That leads to them constantly trying to make the game 'more accessible', which leads to awful decisions like the introduction of 3PV, creating silly new boating rules instead of addressing the root problem of high alpha convergence and build limitations, etc.

I still haven't bought PP because I am waiting for the GREAT BIG THINGS that were promised in July. If they don't deliver on these, or these things prove to be just more fluff, then I'll keep spending my leisure money elsewhere.

Edited by Appogee, 11 July 2013 - 10:14 PM.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

It doesn't impact meta weapons: As stated by everyone, if 3 PPCs is a problem, people go 2 PPC 1 Gauss; if Medium Lasers are a problem they mix in Large. This does nothing for pinpoint alphas.

Isn't it what this change is for?Diversity of weapons.I am kinda bored about 6PPC stalker nad gauss+3PPC HGN.Maybe this will force them to use few more weapons.
Anyway I think it should be better just up heat of PPC/ERPPC where they should be like in TT.

[Victor Morson]

The Strange, on 11 July 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

Wow bro, calm down. Either you like the product they are creating, or you don't. But you really shouldn't expect to have a huge impact on the design.

When the entire community is saying something in an MMO like this, then by God, they should.

The Strange, on 11 July 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

You play test it, give them feedback, and they decide what feedback to implement or not. Why do you take it so personally that they don't do everything you tell them to, especially when you rant at them about it and call them names.

Sometimes I think people on these forums are confused about the difference between a beta tester and a developer.

The problem is we keep giving them overwhelmingly uniform feedback, over and over, loudly as possible and not one thing has gotten better in a year. Just look at my sig. I was calling most of our problems before closed beta even opened. I've kept the faith until recently, but was giving them a benefit of the doubt with Paul back and claiming to have SRMs on the horizon for a buff.

Then not implementing this alpha system. I figured, honestly, that it was canceled. I thought Russ's interview (as did a few people) was a troll, last night. But it's not. It's just flat out dumb when feedback basically amounts to "We do not care about anything outside of our office test games."

Honestly if they weren't dragging such a great franchise down with them, and this game wasn't so VERY VERY close to great, I wouldn't be half as annoyed. This is literally the first time I've ended up a "forum warrior" over a game. But we might never see another MechWarrior game, in particular since again, I really do expect to see the employees when this falls apart (if we stay on this path) totally saying the IP didn't have the interest, or how the market has changed and not that they flat out refused to listen to or act on any feedback whatsoever.

[Brilig]

Just to confirm, how much heat is being added per weapon over the limit?

[Lagster]

the problem with limiting hardpoints is you basically screw tons of builds. If you're limited by the number of points, and then further limited by what class of weapons each point can mount, then again limited by what subset of that class each point can mount based on weapon size, what you'll get is every chassis being essentially identical as all players eventually realise there's only one good way to build a mech with this mix of hardpoints.

[Sybreed]

I don't know if I've given up on MWO, but I'm very reticent to buy the Phoenix package now

[Ryankamun II]

Why are people getting this upset?

Sure, it's not perfect, but acting like a petulant child isn't contributing anything of value.

[Victor Morson]

Appogee, on 11 July 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

I thought you officially gave up?

I have no hope that they are remotely going to do anything, barring a serious threat to their wallets.. again. The last two major changes happened in this game because of that and quite frankly, if they are going "We're aware of the problems! Fix imbound! " then going "Yeah we didn't actually change any of our plans so take this thing you hate and like it!", there is literally no hope left.

Appogee, on 11 July 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

But seriously, perhaps the real problem here is that some of us want MWO to be a hardcore competitive Mech game, which is mostly faithful to the traditions of the franchise.

PGI however are increasingly intent on producing an easy to play mass market title.

People say this all the time. It's simply not true. Mass Market titles need working weapon ecosystems, or guess what? They fail too! You might not like Call of Duty but you have to admit every single weapon and power-up, barring maybe one or two things, has a use in the game. You can get a different but equal experience with most of them. They even have limited "Mechlab" esque customization in BlackOps to adjust how your character plays.

Call of Duty is about as mass market as it could possibly get. But you get the feeling that most things were done with a reason. Is it perfect? Hell no. But they also didn't at any point go "Hey sniping is too powerful. So let's, uh, slow everyone's weapon rates to different amounts or something, man."

Appogee, on 11 July 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

That leads to them constantly trying to make the game 'more accessible', which leads to awful decisions like the introduction of 3PV, creating silly new boating rules instead of addressing the root problem of high alpha convergence and build limitations, etc.

They also need to finally understand that balancing around what a low-experience gamer knows is not going to be balancing in their best interests. All most of us "hardcore" people want is a game where every weapon and class of weapon has a usable niche. Which is, again, pretty much the case in most mass market games for many years!

Appogee, on 11 July 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

I still haven't bought PP because I am waiting for the GREAT BIG THINGS that were promised in July. If they don't deliver on these, or these things prove to be just more fluff, then I'll keep spending my leisure money elsewhere.

You don't think the alpha nerf is a GREAT BIG THING? PAY UP.

Edited by Victor Morson, 11 July 2013 - 10:32 PM.

[Archon Adam Steiner]

What an angry, unproductive, and over-generalized post.

Is this solution perfect? No.

Is it at least a *start*? Yes.

Will it get rid of the all-too-common 4x or 6x PPC/LLas boats? Yes.

Geeze people, it's like you've never been in a Beta before. World of Warcraft, EVE: Online, any MMO of repute - all of them go through these times, even years after launch, where class 'X' is 'broke', or mechanic 'Y' is "OMG TOTES OP!!!!ONE!11!!". Produce some constructive criticism, test the system before hating on it, and accept that this is an ATTEMPT to fix things, which is better than nothing at all; if it doesn't work, it will be changed.

[Unbound Inferno]

Brilig, on 11 July 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

Just to confirm, how much heat is being added per weapon over the limit?

A flat 10 heat per weapon over IIRC. Just in-line with other arbitrary binary balancing acts like ECM/BAP on/off switch.