68 replies to this topic

[Iqfish]

JohnnyWayne, on 12 July 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

Dude I was in cover, any weapon is countered by cover. Except lrms. Thats what makes them too strong in the first place. I don't pack in any means to counter any weapon in particular than skill. I can't do this against PPC's and not against Gauss or Lasers. Why should I need to do so for lrms? Cover has always to work. This is broken by the flightpath and by that lockon module, which lukily almost noone uses.

Im not blaming alpine read my ****** post. "Oh noes he said something against my lrm boat, but thats the only ******* thing im "good" at, flame him!"... Srsly like WoW forums...

Its not one spotter, as I said there are spotters everywhere let alone by the sheer mass of players. Stop ripping the meaning apart and also stop arguing about obvious issues. Try to play on the testserver next time and watch that issue. Then we can talk again.

Remember: All I said was based on that 12v12 test.

I did not flame at anyone i just expressed my opinion
I think we have bigger problems than LRMs right now.

[JohnnyWayne]

And I tell you I was. There was a freakin hill between us. And I'm also hit by lrms behind cover on regular basis. Because their flightpath is way too steep. But thats not an issue as long there are not as many spotters on the map. But this changes now completely.

IqfishLP, on 12 July 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

I think we have bigger problems than LRMs right now.

Thats quite true. But right now becomes almost now as soon as 12v12 is going live.


Listen guys, I want lrm to be in the game and I want them viable. But cover has to be the counter for any weaponsystem. Thats a matter of skill based gameplay.

Thats the reason why cover should be there in a sufficient amount and it should block any damage as long as its big enough. But that big enough thing is the issue right now. Lrms are just flying over and still hit you.

I still remember when I argued with the people back in CB who said lrm need to stay locked on the target, even if they lose their lock... God, you guys are still the same... Oh not to forget you still have the same arguments.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 12 July 2013 - 03:59 PM.

[Sephlock]

Guys, he's not a noob, he's just posting through a time warp. He's talking about the game from a few patches ago...

[Bagheera]

Sephlock, on 12 July 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

Guys, he's not a noob, he's just posting through a time warp. He's talking about the game from a few patches ago...

It's my fault, I shouldn't have brought up the days of 90 degree turning, head-shotting, terrain ignoring lurms from back in the day.

[JohnnyWayne]

Bagheera, on 12 July 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

It's my fault, I shouldn't have brought up the days of 90 degree turning, head-shotting, terrain ignoring lurms from back in the day.

No, Cptn. smartass over there just hasn't realised that they changed the flightpath again, "a few patches ago"... I for my part, am talking about "a few patches from here on"...

Btw: I took my founders atlas out for a ride today (first time in a while) and well... 1 salvo of lrm and my ct went from happy yellow to grim red. Made 4 kills and 800 dmg in it though... But still thats just so wrong for a support weapon. I still think there is some kind of bug involved...

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 12 July 2013 - 05:39 PM.

[TehSBGX]

LRMs only scare me when they have poptart buddies. LRMs keep me pinned and that pop tart can take total advantage of it. LRMs in and of themselves are area denial, and they're good at it but not godly.

[Mad Porthos]

This reminds me of a cover argument that I've heard several iterations of in Teamspeak Servers, like comstar NA, as well as independent Pug Servers...and most recently with a unit I was running with. The topic /conceptof cover seems to mean different things to different people, regardless of how long ones been playing.

My own points in discussion is that when you seek cover, you must get it from all enemies, not just the Lrm Boat and his dedicated spotter. Others felt it should be enough to interpose a hill between a Lrm Boat and themselves and no stinking spotter with tag behind the hill should be able to change the beautiful lazy arc of the Lrms so that it would be one iota steeper. Now, I play with these people - and many are good, but the definitely hold it dear that cover is cover, without exception. Very often they've just backed off a cliff, so are looking at an impenetrable wall of rock. When the volley that would have hit them, still hits them... it seems op. They broke lock after all, the must have.

Thing is, I'm the spider pilot trying to scare off the raven 3L, spider, commando who was tagging them from directly behind and never lost tag. I see often that yeah, the Lrm boats in flight volley missed when the cover seeking guy ducked, but the two other streaks of missile fire from different angles AMOST DEFINITELY DID NOT.Then, painfully I have to try and explain it to him, when I'm feeling chairitable.

You know what I get in turn? Cover is cover. Missiles shouldn't adjust once fired and lock is lost, let alone arc down on a target, even with a spotter. LRMS are coring my CT too, but not exceptionally so...that's just where EVERYONE is most likely to be hit by other stuff before or during the Lrm salvo. Ironically, when the CT of most of these Lrm victims goes, it is only normal...the spotters have been lobbing ppc shots into the butt section of the mechs that register as CT front... opening CT particularly - not to mention the direct laser or ppc shots sometimes also arcing from missile boat stalkers.

Edited by Mad Porthos, 12 July 2013 - 06:45 PM.

[GingerBang]

LRM's are DESTROYED by just a few AMS in a group together. They are most definitely NOT overpowered, OP just needs to learn to sacrifice space for utilities made to counter them.

[Sephlock]

Mad Porthos, on 12 July 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

This reminds me of a cover argument that I've heard several iterations of in Teamspeak Servers, like comstar NA, as well as independent Pug Servers...and most recently with a unit I was running with. The topic /conceptof cover seems to mean different things to different people, regardless of how long ones been playing.

My own points in discussion is that when you seek cover, you must get it from all enemies, not just the Lrm Boat and his dedicated spotter. Others felt it should be enough to interpose a hill between a Lrm Boat and themselves and no stinking spotter with tag behind the hill should be able to change the beautiful lazy arc of the Lrms so that it would be one iota steeper. Now, I play with these people - and many are good, but the definitely hold it dear that cover is cover, without exception. Very often they've just backed off a cliff, so are looking at an impenetrable wall of rock. When the volley that would have hit them, still hits them... it seems op. They broke lock after all, the must have.

Thing is, I'm the spider pilot trying to scare off the raven 3L, spider, commando who was tagging them from directly behind and never lost tag. I see often that yeah, the Lrm boats in flight volley missed when the cover seeking guy ducked, but the two other streaks of missile fire from different angles AMOST DEFINITELY DID NOT.Then, painfully I have to try and explain it to him, when I'm feeling chairitable.

You know what I get in turn? Cover is cover. Missiles shouldnt adjust and arc down. LRMS are coring my CT too. Ironically, when thier CT goes, it is only normal...the spotters have been lobbing ppc shots into the butt section of the mechs that register as CT front... opening CT particularly - not to mention the direct laser or ppc shots sometimes also arcing from missile boat stalkers.

Be honest. Some people just want to be able to cover their eyes when LRMs are incoming and have them go away.

[JohnnyWayne]

Sephlock, on 12 July 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

Be honest. Some people just want to be able to cover their eyes when LRMs are incoming and have them go away.

Oh hey, cptn smartass is back. Sadly. If you don't have anything to contribute then just ****.

AMS: What else weapon does need an equipped counter? Right. None. Why should lrm's be an exception? Especially as a support weaponsystem thats intended to weaken armor rather than killing.

Tag: As far as I know, is tag not the reason why lrm pass over cover.

To balance lrm more, missilse need to apporach upfront, so that they can spread their damage instead of coring a ct in 2 volleys and you can take cover adequately again. Especially with 12v12 going life cover will be essential to survival with the increased amount of lrm's and spotter out there.

If it stays as it is it will probably result in damage reduction to 1.0-1.3 some time after that patch.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 12 July 2013 - 06:30 PM.

[Sephlock]

Also it is going to be horrific once 12 v 12 becomes the norm... especially if the Atlas K and ... whichever stalker has Dual AMS... become more popular.

[Mad Porthos]

LRMS... EACH ONE (missile)DOES 1.1 DAMAGE. NOT 1.7.

EDIT:Several in this thread have made statements and calculations as though Lrms still did the larger amount per missile. Sorry 'bout the caps initially, my phone is funky that way when I do speech to text stuff.

Edited by Mad Porthos, 12 July 2013 - 07:20 PM.

[FREDtheDEAD]

Since the flightpath engine was changed a few patches ago, lots of places that were cover - were put on the map to BE cover from LRMs, now no longer works as cover.

My point is that the maps were made to have more viable LRM cover than currently work, take that as you will.

[Bagheera]

JohnnyWayne, on 12 July 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

AMS: What else weapon does need an equipped counter? Right. None. Why should lrm's be an exception? Especially as a support weaponsystem thats intended to weaken armor rather than killing.

Is that supposed to be some kind of a joke? You know an Anti-Missile-System is the single most realistic item in this silly game universe, right? It's hardly a "need" either. One does not need to have it to counter LRMS - it just means you have to dodge fewer incoming missiles. They are really only a counter if you rock a whole team full of them.

JohnnyWayne, on 12 July 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

Tag: As far as I know, is tag not the reason why lrm pass over cover.

Tag, as far as I know, grants a bonus to tracking strength, which means they are able to maneuver into you more accurately, so yeah, it will reduce the options available for viable cover.

Also, because I haven't seen this mentioned - you do move to either the right or left after hitting cover, right? You don't just back up in a straight line and hope the missiles miss, do you? Because seriously, in anything but an atlas (and really, even in an atlas unless you are going in reverse) you should be able to move perpendicular to the flight path of the lrms and get out of most, if not all of them.

JohnnyWayne, on 12 July 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

If it stays as it is it will probably result in damage reduction to 1.0-1.3 some time after that patch.

Current lrm damage is 1.1 per. Please take a moment to update yourself on the current state of mechanics when having these conversations. (bold emphasis mine)

12v12 might have some lurm-boat heavy teams. That will last about a week or two and then we will all just start offering them prison love with 150kph ecm lights or just continue face-fisting them with PPCs.

Edited by Bagheera, 12 July 2013 - 10:40 PM.

[Revorn]

So LRms go over a Hill and hitt you? Intresting Story Broo.

[Galenit]

JohnnyWayne, on 12 July 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

AMS: What else weapon does need an equipped counter? Right. None. Why should lrm's be an exception? Especially as a support weaponsystem thats intended to weaken armor rather than killing.

What would i give to have a 1,5 tons passive system that reduces ppc damage.
One ppc doing only 1.2damage for my system and one for every system that my allies around me have.
Negating a 4 ppc stalker with 5 passive systems each 1,5 tons in weight would be heaven.
To bad we have it only for lrms.

Do a test yourself:
Try a single LRM15 and LRM20 with and without artemis, los and tag and feel the difference.
Without los, artemis not working and no tag, you spread over the enemy and around him,
but with all working you hit centertorso like every other weapon. (Some missiles of the lrm20 will spread over the mech with artemis and without over the ground too.)
but they can do it faster and with less exposition time, no ams damage reduction and warningtime to react.
Tag is two sided thing, it points on two mechs, not only on the target.

Mad Porthos, on 12 July 2013 - 06:50 PM, said:

LRMS... EACH ONE (missile)DOES 1.1 DAMAGE. NOT 1.7.

EDIT:Several in this thread have made statements and calculations as though Lrms still did the larger amount per missile. Sorry 'bout the caps initially, my phone is funky that way when I do speech to text stuff.

I used 16,5 damage for a lrm15 for my calculation.

Edited by Galenit, 13 July 2013 - 01:17 AM.

[Kitane]

One person was running tests online on LRMs and he believes that missiles do ~1.7 damage to torso and less than 1.0 to other parts of the mech. Results were posted in Balance forum few weeks ago.

I only know that my missiles over last two weeks did ~0.91 damage per missile hit according to stats.

Edited by Kitane, 13 July 2013 - 02:53 AM.

[JohnnyWayne]

Mad Porthos, on 12 July 2013 - 06:50 PM, said:

LRMS... EACH ONE (missile)DOES 1.1 DAMAGE. NOT 1.7.

EDIT:Several in this thread have made statements and calculations as though Lrms still did the larger amount per missile. Sorry 'bout the caps initially, my phone is funky that way when I do speech to text stuff.

I know, I was just wondering if I'm right and too lazy to look for it. This is also what worries me most. Tremendous damage though lrm don't do that much damage....

Quote

Also, because I haven't seen this mentioned - you do move to either the right or left after hitting cover, right? You don't just back up in a straight line and hope the missiles miss, do you? Because seriously, in anything but an atlas (and really, even in an atlas unless you are going in reverse) you should be able to move perpendicular to the flight path of the lrms and get out of most, if not all of them.

Depends on the cover. But yes I do if I need to. Didn't help me in my case...

AMS: Sry but first of all as I said cover as protection against any weapon and secondly AMS is just not worth it. At least as long as you can evade lrm. But this changes with 12v12.

Tag: As far as I know it only tightens the spread and it has to be applied when lrm hit me or something. Still, this wasn't the case.

Quote

What would i give to have a 1,5 tons passive system that reduces ppc damage.

There is and it reduces them to 0. Its called "cover". Works on any weapon. Except lrm some times.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 13 July 2013 - 03:20 AM.

[sokitumi]

it would be fun if you could shoot down lrms. like, see a pug in the open getting rained on? laser fire on some of those to help.

[soarra]

JohnnyWayne, on 12 July 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:

No, Cptn. smartass over there just hasn't realised that they changed the flightpath again, "a few patches ago"... I for my part, am talking about "a few patches from here on"...

Btw: I took my founders atlas out for a ride today (first time in a while) and well... 1 salvo of lrm and my ct went from happy yellow to grim red. Made 4 kills and 800 dmg in it though... But still thats just so wrong for a support weapon. I still think there is some kind of bug involved...

LRM damage is fine the spread sucks since it focuses too much on CT especially on assault mechs