185 replies to this topic

[Umbra8]

I was wondering what effect it would have on the current meta if there were be variable convergence levels depending on if the weapon system was mounted on a part of your mech that had actuators. It would certainly give you a reason to favour arm mounts for precision weapons vs just loading up your torso and going to town.

[Ramseti]

Roughneck45, on 11 July 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Battletech is not real life.

This is what I don't get. Okay, MWO is "loosely based" on Battletech, got it. But if you're going to say that Battletech isn't real life, it's Battletech, then how do you reconcile that TT and the books and every other reference to 'Mech warfare have weapon spread. So what are you referencing, in the Battletech Universe, that has a pinpoint alpha ability?

[Arcturious]

As an old mechwarrior once told me, he said;

"Son. Convergence makes the world go round. It's in the air you breathe, the food you eat and drink. It keeps the sun in the sky and its what keeps your feet on the ground. It's like true love, that brings two divergent paths together and where they meet.....well son, that's where sparks fly."

Don't take my convergence away

[DocBach]

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

make a player have to work for convergence, keep single shots accurate, make group fire either spread out or make a player sacrifice mobility and time to earn convergence of all his weapons, make battlefield conditions affect the speed convergence is obtained.

[Balls McManly]

Arm-mounted weapons should converge, since there are actuators in place for that to happen.

Torso weapons should fire straight forward and not converge.

[Hotthedd]

mistformsquirrel, on 11 July 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Honestly convergence makes perfect sense.

Consider that we're dealing with 3050 tech... when 1940s tech could easily handle this for the weapons on an aircraft. Now I grant, said weapons were simply zero'd to a particular range where they would converge rather than converging at whatever point was aimed at, but I'd find it absolutely hilarious and laughable if a technology level that allows for 15m tall walking tanks weighing 100 tons can't manage a little automated adjustment of weapons systems. I mean at any but the closest range the actual adjustment is miniscule - we're not talking about every weapon needing to be in a turret or anything. The arms by themselves allow more than enough freedom for this, and torso mounted weapons could easily shift very slightly to allow for any but the largest shifts. And at point blank ranges, it ceases to matter so much since you're so close you kind of can't miss.

Normally I try to leave reality out of Battletech, since the two often clash; but this is one area where the argument is absolutely ridiculous.

I mean at a dead minimum - absolute minimum - the arms alone can handle convergence with weapons mounted in them. I mean seriously - get a couple laser pointers and point them at a wall so that the two dots overlap - unless you're standing right up against that wall you'll be able to manage it with relatively little effort - and your Battlemech can too especially considering it's operating at ranges ten times greater than you are from that wall.

Let me put this another way - the computer technology already exists today to allow a modern main battle tank to hit a target while on the move at full speed. If it's possible with today's technology to drive 60kph while hitting tank sized targets largely thanks to computers handling automated adjustment of the gun, don't you think in 3050 that technology can probably handle the adjustment of your weapons by a half degree to keep them firing on one point?

There are better ways to solve the balance issues than "your walking tank can't hit anything accurately"

You say it is easy to point 2 laser pointers so that the beams converge to one spot. Fine. Now, do that while running and jumping. Still easy? Okay, do that while running and jumping and switch targets from 50m away to 500m away and back. Still easy? Okay, do all that with the targets moving. Easy? Now strap a laser pointer to your head, RT, CT, LT, and each arm and have all the beams converge on one spot of a moving target 500 meters away while you are running and jumping.

FIXED convergence I could endorse. Pinpoint accuracy for any SINGLE fired weapon I could endorse. But one click/six hits takes far less skill than having to aim each weapon individually.

[Wolf Ender]

hey guys I found a great game with no convergence: https://mwtactics.com/ go have fun!

[Zerstorer Stallin]

Wolf Ender, on 12 July 2013 - 04:39 AM, said:

hey guys I found a great game with no convergence: https://mwtactics.com/ go have fun!

See you there when this title goes bottom up.

[Divine Madcat]

Hotthedd, on 12 July 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

You say it is easy to point 2 laser pointers so that the beams converge to one spot. Fine. Now, do that while running and jumping. Still easy? Okay, do that while running and jumping and switch targets from 50m away to 500m away and back. Still easy? Okay, do all that with the targets moving. Easy? Now strap a laser pointer to your head, RT, CT, LT, and each arm and have all the beams converge on one spot of a moving target 500 meters away while you are running and jumping.

FIXED convergence I could endorse. Pinpoint accuracy for any SINGLE fired weapon I could endorse. But one click/six hits takes far less skill than having to aim each weapon individually.

Given that any modern main battle tank can do this with its main gun (you can even find some picutres/videos or the tanks firing mid jump), and still hit targets a few miles away... Battlemechs, with neural interfaces and technology to drive a fusion engine, should have no problem pointing a few lasers a single KM (aside from ERPPC, nothing has effectiveness over that range anyway).

[Ramseti]

Divine Madcat, on 12 July 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

Given that any modern main battle tank can do this with its main gun (you can even find some picutres/videos or the tanks firing mid jump), and still hit targets a few miles away... Battlemechs, with neural interfaces and technology to drive a fusion engine, should have no problem pointing a few lasers a single KM (aside from ERPPC, nothing has effectiveness over that range anyway).

A MBT can; a Battlemech can't. That's part of the "lost technology" aspect. Besides, if they could, why would upgraded targeting computers be such a big step in a few in-game years?

[Ogresan]

Convergence is fine. Instant convergence isn't. The idea PGI had originally is that it would take some time for weapons to converge on the targeting reticles' distance. If you pop out from a building 5m in front of you to shoot a mech 500m away you would have to wait for those weapons to converge on that distance for an accurate shot. If you shot right away the weapons would still be converged at 50m and miss completely (exception being centre line weapons). Ever notice the pilot skill that speeds up convergence by 15%?

[3rdworld]

Small pulse lasers converging isn't a problem. Why are we discussing this?

[Divine Madcat]

Ramseti, on 12 July 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

A MBT can; a Battlemech can't. That's part of the "lost technology" aspect. Besides, if they could, why would upgraded targeting computers be such a big step in a few in-game years?

Bull. Any society that can maintain working fusion powerplant and neuro links, can easily maintain a basic targeting computer. Sorry, but some poor sap trying to sound cool and writing that, doesn't mean it makes sense to follow. The fact that a Mech can move the way it does lends to the idea that a TC should be no problem at all.

[Heretic379]

In reply to the OP - instant convergence was brought in tohelp counter the horrible hit detection issues back in Closed Beta. Now hit detection's better I don't see why we can't go back to the convergence we had then. But like so many other 'temporary' fixes (like ML heat, SRM damage and PPC travel time) it seems to have stuck. Hopefully we'll go back to needing actual skill to hit at long range, but the way things are going I'm not holding my breath

[Lugh]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 July 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

I have shot thousands of rounds on a rifle range I never seen this level of accuracy. Lasers I can see converging the Best but Ballistics...

Second I did properly answer the question.

You're doing it wrong then son.

[mistformsquirrel]

Hotthedd, on 12 July 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

You say it is easy to point 2 laser pointers so that the beams converge to one spot. Fine. Now, do that while running and jumping. Still easy? Okay, do that while running and jumping and switch targets from 50m away to 500m away and back. Still easy? Okay, do all that with the targets moving. Easy? Now strap a laser pointer to your head, RT, CT, LT, and each arm and have all the beams converge on one spot of a moving target 500 meters away while you are running and jumping.

FIXED convergence I could endorse. Pinpoint accuracy for any SINGLE fired weapon I could endorse. But one click/six hits takes far less skill than having to aim each weapon individually.

Quite easily - not for me, but for a halfway decent taretting system. As noted by myself and others, a modern MBT can do all this for a target multiple kilometers away. That's 2013 technology, and has actually existed longer. For a Battlemech to even move at all then it has to have computers handling a lot of tiny adjustments in the machine already* so you can't give me the "it's lostech" excuse.

Heck, given the relatively short ranges at which our machines operate, it would be very easy to rig it all up with a simple laser range finder - paint the target with the laser, weapons converge based on the range. You quite simply cannot 'forget' technology that basic if you can run a functional battlemech. It'd be one thing if this were say... WH40k, where people don't even understand the machines they're using and even the people who come the closest still treat it all as some big religious mystery... but this isn't like 40k at all.

I mean look, I know that Battletech isn't realistic; normally I don't care and just get on with it - but there's a level where you start running up against my suspension of disbelief and this is kinda it. You cannot have a 100 ton walking tank and be unable to top 2013 targeting technology, it just doesn't make a lick of sense.

Balancing the game in such a way is just... well silly. The better way to handle it is to just keep nudging the numbers until they hit something that works. With luck, maybe this new heat system will work out - if it doesn't, maybe a damage reduction is in order, or a decrease in rate of fire.**

Besides, ignoring versimilitude for a moment, removing convergence hurts brawlers too (and that's what I play so understandably I'd rather not have my 'mech weakened). After all, the great strength a brawler brings is being able to deliver a LOT of damage once you get up close, but that means jack squat if it flies all over the place. My SRM 4s, medium lasers and AC/5s would be peppering the heck out of the enemy without actually bringing them down, meanwhile that guy with all the PPCs? Yeah he's still fine because convergence or no, they do a lot of damage per-hit so while they may not be able to just core me outright, they'll be ripping sections off my 'mech as we dance, something a more DPS oriented build would have trouble doing.

*For an example of this in real life, look up Fly By Wire. While in an aircraft it's useful for manueverability and allowing designs that otherwise cannot fly to fly, in a Battlemech a similar system would allow it to actually move/stand rather than just topple over.

**That's actually my preferred solution personally. If someone wants to snipe with 4 PPCs, that's fine, just make sure those PPCs can only do that every 6 or 8 seconds, that way the sniper has to have a good aim because if they screw up they may not get enough shots in to kill their target. That also reduces the PPCs efficiency as a brawling weapon since it's actual DPS isn't that great, it'd be a high alpha low DPS weapon. Gauss I'm unworried about - yeah it's powerful, but it also takes up a huge amount of space in your machine and unless I'm missing a machine, the most you'll ever fit on a single 'mech is what... 2? Don't get me wrong, that stings, but there's ammunition considerations there, and the shear weight and critical capacity used by the GR mean you can't carry much for backup.

[DocBach]

Divine Madcat, on 12 July 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

Given that any modern main battle tank can do this with its main gun (you can even find some picutres/videos or the tanks firing mid jump), and still hit targets a few miles away... Battlemechs, with neural interfaces and technology to drive a fusion engine, should have no problem pointing a few lasers a single KM (aside from ERPPC, nothing has effectiveness over that range anyway).

This isn't an MBT targeting for a single main gun, its the equivalent of an MBT lining up four or five main guns instantly at any range.

Lasers should be pretty quick, ballistics and the such, however, would require quite a bit of calculation and articulation to aim that accurately this consistently.

[mistformsquirrel]

DocBach, on 12 July 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

This isn't an MBT targeting for a single main gun, its the equivalent of an MBT lining up four or five main guns instantly at any range.

Lasers should be pretty quick, ballistics and the such, however, would require quite a bit of calculation and articulation to aim that accurately this consistently.

Clearly they aren't doing any calculation for the Ballistics because you still have to lead the target when firing them - whatever tareting system is actually in use is merely keeping your weapons converged on the closest thing your crosshairs are aimed at - no more; that's not a particularly tough calculation.

Edited by mistformsquirrel, 12 July 2013 - 06:25 AM.

[DocBach]

Again, instantly articulating several 15 ton cannons at once to the exact point wherever you swing your crosshairs?

[3rdworld]

DocBach, on 12 July 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

Again, instantly articulating several 15 ton cannons at once to the exact point wherever you swing your crosshairs?

Do the calculations for a triangle.

Most movements to adjust convergence would be less than a single degree. The mech itself moves to place the crosshairs on the target, the actual weapons just have to make very small corrections for convergence range.

Edit: Said convergence range, the weapons do not adjust for bullet drop caused from target range.

Edited by 3rdworld, 12 July 2013 - 06:36 AM.