84 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Max Grayson, on 12 July 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

And Kudo's to you on being involved in Battletech, but what suprises me with all that knowledge of lore that you are actually arguing against limits. True you can play any scenrio you want, and i would advocate that PGI allow players to set up matches in a like manner, however there are always limits to matches based on something.

Now Im not a against a "unlimited" match type format, BUT to actually keep all mechs viable there will need to be either BV, tonnage limits, or restriction of some kind or no one would ever use a medium mech.

My arguing isn't against lore, it actually is for the lore. Players will eventually be part of the Davion Assault Guards or possibly Khorsakov's Cossacks or the Killer Bees. I expect those units to be what they are meant to be, not something that they are shoe horned into. As I would be offended if say Barber's Marauders II had Mechs besides Marauders, Marauder IIs and IICs.

[Stoicblitzer]

it's funny to watch people tryharding on the test server like it matters.

[CeeKay Boques]

Stoicblitzer, on 12 July 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

it's funny to watch people tryharding on the test server like it matters.

How can you help it? Only the people that really really really like Mechwarrior would download a separate client and play for 2 hours only on a Thursday. You don't want to disappoint.

[Inkarnus]

the thing is it will always stay GOBIGORGOHOME
what ever they do let them be in the 12v12 open que till they get sick of it!
We in the 12v12 tonnagelimit que will have our fun since we can now field our mediums and not fear
to be massivly outtonned because enemy team are Dbags and take all assaults!

Arguing you can have more fun in a assault is untrue
you can have far more fun in a light and medium "brawling" other ones.
PPL that argument that way just love there ppc ridge humping all assault meta
wich is to much for 12v12 were i see even there preciousy funny assaults going
nuclear in seconds because of 4 more ppc boats.

But whats more important to me is the question whats the best optimal weight restriction?
for me it would be one were you couldnt go all Catafracts/yager and decent scouts!
wich would be the next goto for ppl if they cant have all stalkers!
so it would need to be under 660 Tons

Suggestion:
630 max Tonnage
2x100 Assaults
2x75 Heavys
4x50 Meds
4x20 Scouts

Edited by Inkarnus, 13 July 2013 - 12:59 AM.

[peve]

Why does it have to be 12 vs 12 and not total of 24 players?

Just make it so that the team size can vary but tonnages / battle values are balanced.

16 hunchies against 8 atlai. On which side do you want to be?

[POOTYTANGASAUR]

Braggart, on 12 July 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

That is the only good point you made. The fact us this game should offer custom matches that let entire teams take assaults, but normal matchmaking.

Everything you say after the quoted part is not important, or is it relevant.

I also want to call ******** on your damages. Just because the sun shines on a dog's *** once in a while, doesnt mean you get to claim 1000 damage on the forums. Ive done that, but I wont ever claim that is normal.

I didnt claim that 1000 damage is normal. I do get 800-900 nightly though and i stand by that because of the 20-30 screenshots i have. In fact i had a topic of literally just screenshots for my cent and hunch games of 800+ damage and there are nights that i dont get one but that is rare. Also i dont just get them in my meds i was including all my mechs. I have an srm stalker, ppc/streak stalker, chunker d-dc, LL/gauss atlas, swayback, LL swayback(8LL lol), cents, ravens, phracts, pults, and soon will have the orions. I often get high damage games like that because in my meds i dont get focused like i do in my assaults. Also my ctf-1x is a very accomplished brawler with 5 med lasers ac20 i can take on anything happily. So i am not sure why you decided to target my statement. I can put up whatever screenshots i have when i get back from vacation(i am posting from my **** laptop and dont have screenshots). But i am sure that if you ask any average or above average player they will tell you the same.High damage games aren't very difficult to achieve you just need a supportive team or incompetant team either way you luck out.

[Mystere]

Replace all smaller maps with Alpine-sized or larger ones and improve the quality of the game modes. Suddenly, those all-Assault teams become at a disadvantage.

[Inkarnus]

no since they just would sit on there base like now

suggestion to remove that
http://mwomercs.com/...38#entry2549938

[Mystere]

Inkarnus, on 13 July 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

no since they just would sit on there base like now

suggestion to remove that
http://mwomercs.com/...38#entry2549938

Which is why I mentioned both larger maps and better game modes. Design game modes that force fatlasses to move from their original position.

I also forgot one more thing: make artillery and air strikes much more dangerous. They currently barely even tickle.

Edited by Mystere, 13 July 2013 - 07:57 AM.

[Inkarnus]

still ppl would take the heavyst mechs and fastest heavyst mechs
nothing would change except the flavour

Edited by Inkarnus, 13 July 2013 - 08:08 AM.

[Tezcatli]

If tonnage mattered then it would bring up the value of mediums. The only problem is that it also brings up the value of lights which are already stronger then mediums. So all we would see is a few assaults and a lot of lights. Unless you limited the amount of tonnage you can devote to lights.

If it was a total of say 650 tons. 300 tons to assaults. 100 to lights. 350 to mediums/heavies. If there's enough left over probably a light or medium. Then you'd have at least 3 assaults, 3 to 4 lights, and a good range of mediums/heavies. Of course the match maker would probably go slower as it tries to organize it with tonnage and ELO.

Though it would be interesting to see 6 assaults against 12 mediums. ;p

[Joseph Mallan]

Mystere, on 13 July 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

Which is why I mentioned both larger maps and better game modes. Design game modes that force fatlasses to move from their original position.

I also forgot one more thing: make artillery and air strikes much more dangerous. They currently barely even tickle.

Well after a year of TDM, Base Cap... and really nothing else, we need real missions. Or at least a new mission.

As to the size of your enemy force. For year, I have not worried about the tonnage of the enemy force. Doesn't matter if we are grossly out weighed or not. You either are the better team and crush or you are not and you get rolled. 40% of my matches are losses, so I can say, that I have been beaten ever when I was on the larger side.

After all, when I am dropping into a Random Que, with people that I cannot coordinate with, I should not have an expectation to have a fair fight every match.

I do gotta agree with you about Arty and Airstrikes... Maybe I have experienced them and just didn't feel em!

[FunkyFritter]

Khobai, on 12 July 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

Limiting the number of weight classes is a bad way to balance the game. People should play light and medium mechs because they want to, not because theyre forced to.

This. Weight limits are a band-aid fix that fails to address the real issue. Everyone gets 1 mech in this game, so every mech needs to be able to contribute the same amount.

[Hythos]

A salvage bonus would be an incentive... under-tonned matched should get a hazard-pay bonus.
But even more so, reinstalling R&R would fix a HUGE diversity of $25-mil c-bill mechs vs 2.5-mil lights.
Let those whom want to run their expensive mechs pay for repairs .... just like they initially intended. People that don't want to pay for R&R, can use rentals or Unit-owned 'Mechs.... just like they originally planned for.

[Khobai]

Quote

This. Weight limits are a band-aid fix that fails to address the real issue. Everyone gets 1 mech in this game, so every mech needs to be able to contribute the same amount.

Exactly. tonnage limits fix nothing and are a bad precedent to set for PGI... we do not want to enable PGI to take the easy way out that never actually fixes anything.

[Inkarnus]

So you say rules dont fix problems?
I would say the opposite!

If ppl are so focused on there assaultmechs
well let them play with unlimetet tonnage
but put for us others another Mode with tonnage limit! (I wonder wich mode got played the most.....)
Since nobody with half a brain will take mediums and lights in masses
if the enemy can take more heavyer mechs instead of them!
If there is no outward rule or malus for going BIG.The game will stay
Heavy/Assault focussed like it is now cheese vs cheese!

"every mech needs to be able to contribute the same amount."

Wont and will never happen since scouts cant carry 4ppc gaus.
But the only thing in a Tonnagelimit is that the base mediums can
contribute and not get obliteratet like now same goes for lights.
Imagine why all the other leages got a weight limit?
Not because ppl drop as low as possibel !

Weight limits have no reason to be linked to balance but it just
reduce the amount of CHEESE you can field thats all to it.

[Taemien]

Those of you who want tonnage limits. I ask this:

How do you keep the newbie who just got out of their cadet phase and bought an assault as their first mech from getting increased queue times or 'failed to find to find a match' from appearing?

Obviously most people launch in Assault mechs. And will continue to do so even with a tonnage limit. Maybe because they like their assaults, and for others thats all they have. So with that known, we know that queue times for players with heavier machines will be longer than those with lighter machines if limitations were put in.

I think the better option is a carrot and not a stick in this case. Make lights and mediums more attractive and competitive and people will naturally gravitate them. Make it so heavies and assaults support mediums and not the other way around and you will see them used more often.

One thing I've noticed about MWO compared to MW3, MW4, and even MWLL is the mechs are way more agile. Even the Atlas and Stalker in MWO seem to move as well (if slower speed obviously) than the Bushwhacker (86kph 55ton medium) in MWLL and MW3. I think we can see Assaults and Heavies agility nerfed to levels seen in previous games while keeping the current agility of mediums or even increasing them.

This would specialize Assaults and Heavies into roles that they are intended for (on a variant/chassis basis), and allow Mediums the flexibility they are supposed to have. Of course the consequence is that it would make heavier machines vulnerable, and I don't know if this community is ready for that. But I do know such a mechanic works very well in MWLL. In there, Atlases and Daishi's are used in moderation to support a team of lighter machines like Shadowcats (45 tons), Bushwhackers (55 tons), Owens (35 tons), and Hollanders II (45 tons).

[Inkarnus]

Dude i dont know if 70% even read it
but i said 12v12 TEAMDROPS
wich i mean Company drops with
and thats what this topic is about
not solo que or 4 man que it is
12v12 controlled Company drops!

So why putting something about Cadetts in here anyway?

Taemien, on 13 July 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

Obviously most people launch in Assault mechs. And will continue to do so even with a tonnage limit. Maybe because they like their assaults, and for others thats all they have. So with that known, we know that queue times for players with heavier machines will be longer than those with lighter machines if limitations were put in.

Your assumptions are right for a pugger (wich the tonnage limit isnt for) but of none Value
since a company(wich the Tonnage limit is for) thinks other and que times dont matter anyway in
Company battels! Wich this topic is about!
Companys will always drop as heavy as they can to gain an unfair edge over there enemys!
Except there is a rule that say you are allowed to go to this point and says NO to overtonnage!
Like the Number i picked 630 tons.

Taemien, on 13 July 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

Make lights and mediums more attractive and competitive and people will naturally gravitate them.

Thats what Tonnage limit is for since the amount of assaults is reduced it buffs mediums and lights
since they can work as intended instead of getting obliteratet *sigh*
,already said that alot, seems ppl have deaf ears.

Taemien, on 13 July 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

Don't know if this community is ready for that.

This community isnt ready for anything except wall of QQ the changes like MWLL
could have been implementet aeons back if they wantet it that way!

Never the less i liked parts of your posts.

But it doesnt changes that we need a very hard malus for assaults or rules against driving all assaults
in a seperate Teamdrop que since ppl need rules and wont abide fairplay much.
That thought me the horrors of 12v12 Testserver Company drops

Stoicblitzer, on 12 July 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

it's funny to watch people tryharding on the test server like it matters.

Edited by Inkarnus, 14 July 2013 - 01:19 AM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 July 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

My arguing isn't against lore, it actually is for the lore. Players will eventually be part of the Davion Assault Guards or possibly Khorsakov's Cossacks or the Killer Bees. I expect those units to be what they are meant to be, not something that they are shoe horned into. As I would be offended if say Barber's Marauders II had Mechs besides Marauders, Marauder IIs and IICs.

Actually, on the (admittedly slim) off-chance that what PGI have said previously holds any weight...

No, no you won't. You won't be part of any canon units, and since there is no AI, you won't be fighting them either. Ergo you won't need to worry about the Barber's Marauders fielding non-Marauder mechs since they won't ever be present.

[oldradagast]

Taemien, on 12 July 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

You have to understand something. This community is utterly afraid and against lights and mediums going toe to toe with heavies and assaults. They want tonnage limits only because when they get in their bad *** machines, they have smaller things to shoot at.

They don't want those smaller things being a threat.

I've suggested changes that would make lights and mediums more attractive and competitive. I either get some saying that lighter mechs should never take on heavier mechs (some of the time) or the thread mysteriously stops and another one pops up (most of the time), indicating that they are avoiding such a subject.

Funny thing is my suggestions aren't drastic and just are common sense. Such as lowering the profiles of medium mechs so they are harder to snipe, and increasing their agility so they can compete in close range. Neither of which will make them OP to Heavies or Assaults. But this community refuses to get behind such changes as it makes their heavies and assaults a little more vulnerable.

Remember they want you to pilot lighter machines. They don't want to do it themselves. What they don't understand is if the restrictions are put in, they will be faced with longer queue times unless they get in something lighter. But maybe they do and they are fine with that as long as someone else is acting as fodder.

Lights and Mediums are utterly hated by the community. First it was complaints about how OP Jenners and Hunchbacks were in Closed Beta. Then Ravens and Centurions (in CB, even the Yen Lo Wang was called OP), and then Cicadas for a short while even before ECM received functionality.

Why do you think there is very little in the way of threads about seismic sensors? You see one or two. But no where near as much as you saw about ECM or even BAP when it became a counter to ECM.

Quoted for truth.

- The Mediums suffer the most from grossly oversized models - the Quickdraw may as well be a medium - and yet nothing is done. On the other hand, we have Stalker's slinking around that are about as big as machines 20 tons lighter, but that's okay. This has been brought up by the community, but nothing is done probably because larger mechs sell for more real money than smaller ones, so who cares.

- Endless reposts come up about bringing back R&R, but it's always about making "less skilled players" or "somebody else" play those lousy targets - I mean Light and Medium mechs.

- When ECM was brought back in line, the biggest rage was "Oh no - my DDC won't be cloaked anymore." What a shame. Trying playing something other than a stealth version of the most durable and (at the time) most powerful mech in the game.

If we're just going to have assaults PPC and Gaussing each other to death, with AC40 Jagers tossed in for "variety," the result will not be Battletech... but people should not be forced to play bad mechs. All classes of mech need to be able to contribute and provide fun on the battlefield, IMHO.

Edited by oldradagast, 14 July 2013 - 09:28 AM.