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Weapon Balance: Pgi, It's Time For A Weapon Calculator


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#1 Obelus

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 09:07 AM

So I'll get right to it...PGI, you need to balance the weapons in this game without chaining yourself to tabletop. I've been playing Mechwarrior/battletech for 25 years and I love it as much as anyone but tabletop should be your starting point and that's it. When aspects of TT conflict with real balance in MWO don't tie yourself into knots trying to stay true to TT. Balance should be first.

Here are the basic variables for a weapon calculator:

Damage
Range
Weight
Size (slots)
Heat
Firing rate (time between shots)
Firing time (time it takes to get off a single shot)
pinpoint damage or spread

My suggestion to the devs would be to build a weapon calculator composed of slider bars (if they haven't done so already).

Example: I'm a dev at PGI and I'm trying to balance an energy weapon (let's ignore table top for the moment and just pretend I'm making a new weapon)

First I start with a weapon that does 5 damage at medium range but I want to increase it's damage and bump it to 6 damage. So I move the damage slider up from 5 to 6. I should then see the numbers on the weight, slots, heat, firing time, and firing rate slider bars also increase while the slider bar for range would drop. So by increasing my damage from 5 to 6 I'm making my weapon heavier, bigger, hotter, slower, and shorter ranged.

Lets say I lock in my damage slider bar at 6 damage and then increase the range of the weapon. I should then see the sliders for weight, slots, heat and firing rate go up again. Figuring out how much they increase would be the tricky part.

So how do you balance ballistic vs missile vs energy? My suggestion would be a modifier to heat. When I first make a new weapon I can designate it as energy based by clicking a box to start and then a modifier is added to the heat slider. Basically an energy based weapon will run hotter because it doesn't need ammo.

To designate a weapon as spread damage versus pinpoint damage you again click a box and you get another modifier. This should help sort out ballistic versus missile and take into account the LBX, flamer, and machine gun.

The range slider could be unique from the others and offer two handles...one for minimum and maximum range. By moving these handles you determine max range and min range. Initially the min range handle would be set to 0 but you could slide it up towards your max range handle to lower heat, weight, size, etc.

So how would current weapons fit in this system? Well lets look at a weapon like the AC2. It may stay pretty much the same. It has low damage per shot but obviously someone cranked up the firing rate slider so correspondingly the weight, size, and heat sliders went up. It's got really good range so again the weight, size, and heat sliders had to go up.

Let's look at another example; the medium laser. It does medium damage at medium range but it's really light and small so the heat slider went way up. Is it hot enough? With a calculator you'd know for sure relative to the other weapons in the game. That's the value of the calculator.

Finally the downside of the calculator...certain weapons may end up with very different stats than TT.

On paper the PPC does twice the damage of a medium laser with double the range but only has double the heat. If you use the calculator it should probably end up with triple the heat. Why? The slider bar for heat moves up when you increase damage but also when you increase the weapons range. So double damage means double heat. Double range also equals double heat. Now range and increased damage also comes with increased weight, size, and potentially firing rate. But if I've already tripled the heat why does it need to get heavier, bigger, and slower as well? Simple...to balance against alpha damage and heavier mechs.

So now my PPC has triple heat and I don't like it. What can I do to lower the heat? First I lock the damage and range in on their sliders and then increase weight, size, and/or firing rate. But that's not enough. I end by sliding the minimum range handle on the range slider up from zero to (x) range. Now if I hit someone with the weapon under (x) range it does no damage but the benefit is I've lowered the heat of the weapon.

So there you go. That's my solution. Is it absolutely true to tabletop? No. It's true to balance and that's what MWO needs first.

Edited by Obelus, 12 July 2013 - 10:30 AM.


#2 Angel of Annihilation

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 09:29 AM

I want to play Battletech, not Robowars Online. For the game to remain Battletech, it has to remain Battletech.

#3 stjobe

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 09:38 AM

View PostObelus, on 12 July 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

So I'll get right to it...PGI, you need to balance the weapons in this game without chaining yourself to tabletop. I've been playing Mechwarrior/battletech for 25 years and I love it as much as anyone but tabletop should be your starting point and that's it. When aspects of TT conflict with real balance in MWO don't tie yourself into knots trying to stay true to TT. Balance should be first.

While I agree that the spirit of BattleTech is more important than adhering to the letter of the TT rules, there is a point where it ceases to be a BattleTech game and becomes just another stompy robot game.

A pertinent example is 'mechs firing 6 PPCs not once, but two and even three times in a row without overheating. That's not BattleTech, that's stompy robots.

Getting one-shot by pin-point alphas isn't BattleTech, it's stompy robots.

The TT rules are there not just as a guideline for balance, but also as a guideline to how everything should feel. And the feel of BattleTech should be metal behemoths slugging it out, slowly chipping away at each other while their pilots suffer heat strokes in their cockpits. Not assault 'mechs zipping about at 70kph one-shotting enemies with pin-point accuracy.

That's not BattleTech, and it has to go.

#4 Obelus

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 09:41 AM

View PostViktor Drake, on 12 July 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

I want to play Battletech, not Robowars Online. For the game to remain Battletech, it has to remain Battletech.


If a med laser still does 5 damage and is 1 ton and 1 slot is it necessary that it does 4 heat just because the TT says so? Even if that's unbalanced?

No it's not. And it's still Battletech if it does 3. 2 heat or 4.2 heat (whichever is the right balance). That goes for every weapon.

#5 Obelus

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 09:45 AM

View Poststjobe, on 12 July 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

While I agree that the spirit of BattleTech is more important than adhering to the letter of the TT rules, there is a point where it ceases to be a BattleTech game and becomes just another stompy robot game.

A pertinent example is 'mechs firing 6 PPCs not once, but two and even three times in a row without overheating. That's not BattleTech, that's stompy robots.

Getting one-shot by pin-point alphas isn't BattleTech, it's stompy robots.

The TT rules are there not just as a guideline for balance, but also as a guideline to how everything should feel. And the feel of BattleTech should be metal behemoths slugging it out, slowly chipping away at each other while their pilots suffer heat strokes in their cockpits. Not assault 'mechs zipping about at 70kph one-shotting enemies with pin-point accuracy.

That's not BattleTech, and it has to go.


Did you catch the part lower down on PPCs that I wrote? It was a long post I know.

My very basic sense is that the heat of the PPC onced balanced through a weapon calculator would be much higher than it presently is. I list why as well.

Edited by Obelus, 12 July 2013 - 09:47 AM.


#6 The pessimistic optimist

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 09:47 AM

One of the biggest mistakes they made was trying to shoe horn turn based table top rules in to a real time game. Its why this game is broken right now. They could have made the game feel more like battletech by starting from scrach and building for there and stayed more true to the spirit of battletech.

Edited by SirSmokes, 12 July 2013 - 09:51 AM.


#7 Obelus

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 09:52 AM

View PostSirSmokes, on 12 July 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

One of the biggest mistakes they made was trying to shoe horn turn based table top rules in to a real time game. Its why this game is broken right now.


I think they can still take alot from the table top game but they have to avoid being slavish to it. I think in a real time game when you are dealing with weapons balance you have to really get it right or everything breaks down.

Edited by Obelus, 12 July 2013 - 09:53 AM.


#8 Monky

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:08 AM

View PostObelus, on 12 July 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:


If a med laser still does 5 damage and is 1 ton and 1 slot is it necessary that it does 4 heat just because the TT says so? Even if that's unbalanced?

No it's not. And it's still Battletech if it does 3. 2 heat or 4.2 heat (whichever is the right balance). That goes for every weapon.


You can approximate it a little bit and it can work, as we see with some current balance things, in order to fit it into the real time FPS hole it needs to fit into. But you have to be really careful or risk winding up with MW4 where things really didn't respresent mechwarrior or battletech, it was just robots with vague construction rules and words that sounded similar to mw/bt

#9 Waking One

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:11 AM

Being chained to tabletop is what's eating away at this game. It's primarily a real time shooter, balance needs to be made with that in mind. Battletech is there for the fluff and the feel.

Just because a weapon doesn't do the same damage as in TT it doesn't change anything about the feel of the game, stop pretending it does.

Funnily enough the game everybody seems to mention and love, MW:LL, did away with TT stats completely and was much better for it.

Edited by Waking One, 12 July 2013 - 10:12 AM.


#10 Obelus

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:21 AM

View PostMonky, on 12 July 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:


You can approximate it a little bit and it can work, as we see with some current balance things, in order to fit it into the real time FPS hole it needs to fit into. But you have to be really careful or risk winding up with MW4 where things really didn't respresent mechwarrior or battletech, it was just robots with vague construction rules and words that sounded similar to mw/bt


Exactly. The calculator should be a guide. I'm not suggesting PGI start making up new weapons. Instead the calculator should help find real balance with the mechwarrior weapons we all know and love.

I still want to have PPCs in the game. I still expect that they do twice the damage and have double the range as a medium laser and that they also have a hard minimum range. What the calculator will do is help figure out the other stats...heat, weight, size, firing rate etc

Edited by Obelus, 12 July 2013 - 10:24 AM.


#11 Shadowsword8

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:30 AM

View PostViktor Drake, on 12 July 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

I want to play Battletech, not Robowars Online. For the game to remain Battletech, it has to remain Battletech.


But, are you really playing Battletech right now? In BT, one PPC is heat-neutral with 5 DHS. Can you say the same for MWO?

There's already far too many critical differences between BT and MWO for any clinging to BT weapon stats to do any good. Quite the contrary, the game would achieve a far more balanced state if PGI ignored BT and only based balancing on field experience.

Edited by Shadowsword8, 12 July 2013 - 10:31 AM.


#12 Mechteric

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:31 AM

Slider bars don't just automatically move by themselves you know, you have to come up with some algorithm to control each one. How much exactly should one bar move when another moves based on several factors would likely be a nightmare to come up with unless you were given the formula to begin with.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 12 July 2013 - 10:31 AM.


#13 Obelus

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:41 AM

View PostCapperDeluxe, on 12 July 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

Slider bars don't just automatically move by themselves you know, you have to come up with some algorithm to control each one. How much exactly should one bar move when another moves based on several factors would likely be a nightmare to come up with unless you were given the formula to begin with.


Well for me it would be a nightmare as my math skills are horrible but for someone who designs pretty complex systems in games I'm not sure it would be that huge of a challenge. Keep in mind that the TT offers some numbers (damage 1-20, weapon ranges like short, medium, etc) that can act as guideposts.

Edited by Obelus, 12 July 2013 - 10:46 AM.


#14 BlackIronTarkus

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:44 AM

View PostViktor Drake, on 12 July 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

I want to play Battletech, not Robowars Online. For the game to remain Battletech, it has to remain Battletech.


So lets have **** balance!

#15 Kamenjar

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 11:03 AM

View PostViktor Drake, on 12 July 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

I want to play Battletech, not Robowars Online. For the game to remain Battletech, it has to remain Battletech.

TBH, I have never played Battletech, but I am pretty sure poptarting was not a valid tactic in the board game.

Unlike in a board game, MWO player can get out of cover (not just with JJ), burst out 100 PPCs, likely scoring a kill, and get back into cover while having 99% heat and not suffering any vulnerability.

This is "an FPS", so I feel that Battletech rules have to be balanced to account for real-time cover.

Edited by Kamenjar, 12 July 2013 - 11:06 AM.


#16 Qrbaza

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 11:42 AM

Dont know about TT so im asking can mount 6 ppcs on stalker?

#17 mike29tw

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 11:49 AM

PGI should've been a lot more liberal when it comes to weapon values a long time ago.

A balanced MWO is guaranteed to be different than TT.

#18 Obelus

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 11:52 AM

View PostQrbaza, on 12 July 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

Dont know about TT so im asking can mount 6 ppcs on stalker?


Been along time since I played TT but no I don't think so. The heat would be too much.

#19 stjobe

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 01:50 PM

View PostQrbaza, on 12 July 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

Dont know about TT so im asking can mount 6 ppcs on stalker?

You can, but you also need to mount 31 SHS or 16 DHS to not auto-shutdown if you fire all six at the same time.
You still have a rather large risk to shutdown (2-9 on 2d6), and your pilot may take damage (2-7 on 2d6), and any ammo may cook off (2-8 on 2d6). Also, you'll be unable to move (-5 MP) and won't be hitting anything (+4 to hit).

#20 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 01:55 PM

View Poststjobe, on 12 July 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

Not assault 'mechs zipping about at 70kph one-shotting enemies with pin-point accuracy.

That's not BattleTech, and it has to go.

Berserker Called he wants to talk to you Jobe. ;)

100t
70KpH (ish)
Pinpoint accuracy(ish)





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