99 replies to this topic

[Strum Wealh]

dal10, on 26 July 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

actually all acs have versions that fire single rounds. it really depends on the manufacturers, ac/20s were the only ones i could think of off the top of my head though. just for disparity, riflemans were depicted and giant machine guns. while the shadow hawk fired 3 round bursts. i think the marauder fired single rounds, but don't quote me on that one. (marauder has ac/5)

Well, there are BT rules also support the notion of ACs as burst-fire weapons - in fact, there are specific gameplay rules (on page 100 of Tactical Operations) for walking the fire from a single burst across multiple targets.

Quote

Multiple Targets: Rather than firing at a single target, any type of autocannon can be “walked” across two targets close to one another. An LB-X autocannon firing a cluster shot and Ultra and Rotary autocannons firing at multiple targets are a special case.

No matter what type of autocannon is being used, both targets must be in adjacent hexes and within range of the weapon. Determine the to-hit number for both targets and make separate to-hit rolls against each target, using the higher (more difficult) of the to-hit numbers and adding a +1 modifier for firing at multiple targets with a single shot. Note that this is not the secondary target modifier; that modifier does not apply to this type of attack unless multiple targets also are being attacked in the same phase. If the to-hit roll succeeds, the target is struck by a single hit that inflicts damage equal to half the normal damage done by the weapon (rounded down).

The more basic rules found in Total Warfare can be seen as simply assuming that all of the shells in a burst land in the same general area.
For example, if each of the shells in a three-shell burst hits the thigh, lower leg (calf/shin), and middle of the foot, the shot "hit the leg". Likewise, having each of the shells in a four-shell burst hit the upper arm, elbow joint, lower arm, and hand is considered to have the entire burst "hit the arm".

Also, Era Report 3052 speaks to the AC classification system on page 89.

Quote

An engineer or armchair general might hold forth that the Crusher SH Cannon Autocannon (the only useful part of a Hetzer wheeled assault gun) is a completely different sort of weapon than 185mm ChemJet Guns of the fearsome Demolisher tank, because the former is a 150mm autocannon designed to fire a cassette of 10 shells while the latter is a 185mm weapon that fires a four-round cassette.

However, not everyone can afford the luxury of such nitpicking, and so militaries long ago adopted a scheme of rough classes to judge weapon systems. In the case of the aforementioned autocannons, military personnel and casual observers would consider both weapons to be “class 20” autocannons as they both fire 200 kilograms of ammunition in a 10-second period at an effective range of just under 300 meters. Any autocannon that falls into that range of performance is a class-20 autocannon, whether they fire a single 300mm, 200-kilogram shell or scores of 50mm shells.

• The AC/20 used on the Hetzer Combat Vehicle (a Ceres Arms Crusher Super Heavy Cannon) fires a burst of ten 150mm shells.
  
• The AC/20s used on the Demolisher Combat Vehicle (twin ChemJet Guns) each fire a burst of four 185mm shells.
  
• The AC/20 mounted on the Mechbuster AreoSpace Fighter (a Zeus 75) fires a four-round burst of unstated caliber.
  
• Decision at Thunder Rift states (toward the beginning of chapter 28) that the AC/5 on the SHD-2H Shadow Hawk (an Armstrong J11) is a 90mm weapon.
  
• Decision at Thunder Rift also states (around the middle of chapter 9) that the AC/5 on the MAD-3R Marauder (a GM Whirlwind) is a 120mm weapon that fires in three-round bursts.
  
• Technical Readout: 3025 states that the AC/10 on the ENF-4R Enforcer (a "Federated Autocannon/10") uses "big, ten-round clips that are easily slipped into and out of the 'Mech's back" (with the implication that each of the 10 shots in one ton is composed of 10 individual shells (that is, 10 shells/clip * 10 clips/ton), for a total of 100 shells per ton).

There is much evidence that indicates that ACs that fire multi-shell bursts are, within the BattleTech universe, by far the norm rather than the exception.

[TB Azrael]

Elyam, on 17 July 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

BT actually falls fairly well into acceptable limits of fictional yet close-to-reality authoring and design, while keeping a good flare for a bit of the fantastic and for ignoring some present-day accepted 'truths', but also with healthy respect for history - and most great sci-fi does this. Purist sci-fi based only on limitations and realities recognized in official quarters of the present day (especially any claiming 'consensus') and extrapolating very narrowly into the foreseeable future is usually pretty anemic, imagination-less, dry, and entertaining only to those who hope the universe ends up justifying the 'realistic' predictions made in their own era.

-tonnage and dimensions of mechs? close enough
-short range of weapons? justified to provide a really cool close game on tabletop and then software; also this is a part of the diminished technological base of the BT story (something so many people forget, dismiss, or are unaware of)
-concept of tall humanoid vehicle being a stupidly obvious battlefield target or having a center of gravity that makes it too susceptible to certain attacks? As many or more positives can be brought up for the humanoid vehicle form, though the height is a definite negative without sufficient cover
-heat as such a defining component? justified for the game...I would have rather seen a system based on power output and where heat is a minor periodic consideration

We can go on and on. Mostly, BT works as good sci-fi and tactical game just fine.

Well a fictional point everyone is skipping. Mechs have a gyroscope and also use feedback from the pilots sense of balance.

[Strum Wealh]

TB Azrael, on 27 July 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

Well a fictional point everyone is skipping. Mechs have a gyroscope and also use feedback from the pilots sense of balance.

Even that may not be all that fictional within the next few years...

Quote

Researchers have harnessed the power of thought to guide a remote-control helicopter through an obstacle course.

---

The research in the Journal of Neural Engineering uses a non-invasive "cap" to capture brain electrical activity.

It is not the "mind-reading" of fiction. The approach, and others like it, require that an electronic system be "trained" to recognise patterns in an electroencephalograph - a map of electrical activity.

Those thoughts, such as that of making a fist with the left hand, are then correlated with motions of the helicopter - in this case to the left.

---

Such thoughts have already been used to steer a motorised wheelchair and a range of reliable brain signals have even been put to use in the world's first "brain orchestra".

Even technology firms see potential in the idea; Samsung is reportedly working on a "mind-control" tablet device.

When researchers can access the brain directly - with probes or implants - they can focus on more precise areas of brain activity, at the source.

Then, even finer control is possible - implants have helped people move a computer cursor using the subtler thoughts of vowel sounds, and have allowed both monkeys and paralysed humans to delicately control robotic arms.

(source: BBC News)

[aniviron]

BT numbers sound good unless you think about them too much. I did some math in a thread a month or two ago, and so I will just quote myself here:

aniviron, on 19 June 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:

I wish people would stop spewing nonsense about volumes in mech. I'm going to show you how stupid the foundations for this game are.

According to PGI, the atlas is 18m tall.

Estimating conservatively, we can assume the atlas is about four meters wide, but probably closer to five or six. For a reasonable approximation of volume, I use pi*r^2*h, so 3.14*2^2*18. This gives us an approximate volume of 226m^3.

An atlas weighs 100 tons. That's 90718kg.

Dividing 90718kg/226m^3 gives us the density of an atlas, ~401kg/m^3.

Water has a density of 1000kg/m^3.

An atlas would float.

[dal10]

atlas is 14 meters tall. wasps are about 9 meters tall. 176m^3 gives you about 517 which is better. but you also used normal tons not metric ones. one metric ton is 1000 kilograms. so it is 100000/176. which gives you 568kg/m^3 by your math. still light but better than 401 kg.

[LauLiao]

Kiiyor, on 13 July 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:

Any type of comparison between the two is like comparing a brick wrapped in alfalfa sprouts to a children's playground slide.

I see you've read my dissertation.

[Brkojle]

Did anyone got that BT is imaginary world and nothing is real? Why are we always looking for similar things for real life and real physics?

Nothing is real in MWO so you shouldn't look for logical things ... logical in our real life

[CyclonerM]

Brkojle, on 29 July 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

Nothing is real everything is permitted in MWO so you shouldn't look for logical things ... logical in our real life

[RedDragon]

dal10, on 26 July 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

actually all acs have versions that fire single rounds. it really depends on the manufacturers, ac/20s were the only ones i could think of off the top of my head though. just for disparity, riflemans were depicted and giant machine guns. while the shadow hawk fired 3 round bursts. i think the marauder fired single rounds, but don't quote me on that one. (marauder has ac/5)

I have to call you out on that since IMO this is an often quoted myth. I definitively can't recall a single source that mentions ACs firing single shells. If you can quote such a source, I'd really like to see it. Both lore and rules unanimously depict ACs as burst-fire weapons, with burst-length and caliber depending on the manufacturer, as has been mentioned above. But it is always a burst, not a single shell.

[dal10]

test of vengeance. one of the mechs fired a single trashcan sized shell during the battle of idlewind. i am pretty sure it was the stormcrow pilot. (all official novels are canon.) (also talk about obscure references.)

[Strum Wealh]

To add to the list from my previous post: the AC/20 on the VTR-9B Victor (a "Pontiac 100") is a 100mm weapon that fires in 100-shell bursts.

"The Victor grounded a scant ten meters behind the Ostroc. Theodore fired the Pontiac, then closed without waiting to see the results. Fragments pattered against the Victor as 100mm shells shattered the weak back armor of the Lyran 'Mech. Armor vanished, exposing the machine's internal superstructure. It, too, cratered and disappeared under the explosive fury of the shells. The Ostroc's chestplate and right arm leaped into the air as the 'Mech's rocket storage ignited in a violent chain of explosions. The Steiner machine toppled, a disjointed puppet bereft of guidance."
(Heir to the Dragon, ch. 32; source)

"Ardan ran a hurried check on his Victor's main armament. The right arm Pontiac 100 autocannon had the best chance of scoring a crippling hit on the Thunderbolt, but he was afraid that his swim in the mud might have fouled its feed mechanism. The autocannon was a devastating weapon. It fired high-speed, rapid-fire streams of explosive, armor-piercing shells from cassettes or carousels fed into the gun one at a time by a complex and occasionally balky autoloader mechanism. Each cassette held 100 shells, and by a widespread but commonly accepted looseness of terminology, each cassette was itself considered to be one round. One cassette round was already loaded. Nineteen more were stored in the autoloader chamber high up in his Victor's right torso. He would have to use that single round carefully, because if the loader jammed, he would not get another chance."
(Sword and Dagger, ch. 13; source)

[Strum Wealh]

dal10, on 29 July 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

test of vengeance. one of the mechs fired a single trashcan sized shell during the battle of idlewind. i am pretty sure it was the stormcrow pilot. (all official novels are canon.) (also talk about obscure references.)

It was the Ryoken pilot, Petra.

"Petra focused on her opponent and thumbed the trigger. Monstrous shells the size of trash cans poured from her Stormcrow's left-arm autocannon into a Combine Centurion, battering its armor mercilessly and sending the machine staggering backward as its pilot struggled to keep it upright."
(Test of Vengeance, ch. 12; source)

The remainder of the passage makes clear that she was piloting a Ryoken B - which makes the weapon in the Left Arm a Clan UAC/20.
We also know that the Clan UAC/20 on the Cauldron-Born A is a 203mm weapon.
With 203mm being equivalent to 8", we'd be talking about some rather small garbage cans.


There are also the "Multiple Targets" rules from page 100 of Tactical Operations to consider.

Quote

Rather than firing at a single target, any type of autocannon can be “walked” across two targets close to one another. An LB-X autocannon firing a cluster shot and Ultra and Rotary autocannons firing at multiple targets are a special case.

-----

For Ultra and Rotary autocannons, make a single to-hit roll against the highest to-hit number plus 1. Then determine whether the designated number of shots fired hit a target. If only one shot hit, it will strike one of the targets - determined at random - with a single shot that does full damage. If two, four or six shots hit, one, two or three shots will strike each target at full damage. If three or five shots hit, one or two shots will strike each target; randomly determine where the other shot lands.

Taken together, this could imply that UACs and RACs in general may fire a single shell per "unit of ammo", rather than the multiple shells per "unit of ammo" of standard ACs (and LACs, and HVACs, and LB-X ACs when firing standard/slug rounds), where the UACs' "ultra mode" is a two-shell burst that consumed two "units of ammo" and the RACs' full rate of fire is a six-shell burst that consumes six "units of ammo".

Thoughts?

[Alaskan Nobody]

Strum Wealh, on 29 July 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

Thoughts?

Headache!

[W A R L O R D]

Corusmaximus, on 12 July 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

So I am a little baffled by the weight scale of the mechs.

Modern tanks weigh almost as much as a heavy mech, and a few are heavier than assaults.
M1 Abrams weighs about 68 tons.
The French FCM-F1 was 138 tons (circa 1940).

Yet the Atlas weighs only 100 tons. Makes no sense. Are these things made of plastic?

Really? - even if we take out the fact that this is a fictional universe of which we can draw the conclusion that we should "just go with it". Aside from all that...its approximately 1,040 years from now. 1000 years ago they were still trying to chart the phases of the moon. So is it possible to have a metal alloy that is 1000 times stronger and 1/10 the weight of steel, 1000 years from now? Why not....just go with it...stop trying to figure out the weight ratios. If you still find that you can't sleep at night due to your undying zeal to rationalize a fictional universe; can you tell me how a radioactive spider can bite you and give you super human strength and immeasurable agility? Or how getting blasted by gamma rays (which normally would fry the surface of the earth) give you the ability, when you get mad, to turn into a huge green monster? No, you cant. That's what makes this fun. So just relax and enjoy it my friend.

[aniviron]

dal10, on 28 July 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

atlas is 14 meters tall. wasps are about 9 meters tall. 176m^3 gives you about 517 which is better. but you also used normal tons not metric ones. one metric ton is 1000 kilograms. so it is 100000/176. which gives you 568kg/m^3 by your math. still light but better than 401 kg.

The canonical atlas is 14m. PGI's was given as 18, by the devs. But yes, whichever way you slice it, it's much too light.

[k0sh]

XphR, on 13 July 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

Theorized in 47, discovered in the 70s, named in 87, toyed with from 97 until 04 when two guys in Manchester University had the brilliant idea to extract it from the block with scotch tape. Its had numerous awards and accreditation under many sciencey awardy groups.

They make meaner trucks than the ones on IceRoads, look up road trains!

I thought that graphene was invented by some Polish guys, as they are holding patent for it.

[RedDragon]

dal10, on 29 July 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

test of vengeance. one of the mechs fired a single trashcan sized shell during the battle of idlewind. i am pretty sure it was the stormcrow pilot. (all official novels are canon.) (also talk about obscure references.)

Quote

"Petra focused on her opponent and thumbed the trigger. Monstrous shells the size of trash cans poured from her Stormcrow's left-arm autocannon into a Combine Centurion, battering its armor mercilessly and sending the machine staggering backward as its pilot struggled to keep it upright."
(Test of Vengeance, ch. 12; source)

So there goes that one – still have to see an official source that mentions single-shot ACs

[Adridos]

k0sh, on 29 July 2013 - 11:17 PM, said:

I thought that graphene was invented by some Polish guys, as they are holding patent for it.

Russians, not Polish. They were simply working in Manchester.

[Nebfer]

Parden the spelling, but this is from my raw files... (txt files)

 
 
================================
Machineguns
================================
20mm Gatling			  = 20mm (TRO 3039) skorpion tank entry
M100					  = 12.7mm (leithal hearitage) -Phawk
Johnston minigun		  = 20mm (temptation by war) Ranger VV1 -discribed as caseless (ch 14)
Scattergun				= 20mm (temptation by war) DI Schmitt
22mm Gatling			  = 22mm (TRO 3075) JES 1 entry
================================
Class 2 Autocannons
================================
Whirlwind-L			   = 32mm (Binding force) BlackJack BJ-1
Whirlwind-L			   = 30mm (Threads of ambition) Blackjack BJ-1
SarLon					= 30mm (TRO 3026) Warrior VTOL
Thor RAC-2				= 40mm (TRO 3058) Warrior VTOL
Mydron Model D-rf (Ultra) = 20mm (Imminent Crisis) Jagermech III  
Mydron Model D			= 30mm (Threads of ambition) Jagermech
Defiance Shredder LBX	 = 20mm (Fortress republic) -Catapult
================================
Class 5 Autocannons
================================
GM Nova 5  Ultra	  = 50mm (Binding force) -cataphract
GM Nova 5  Ultra	  = 40mm (Illusions of victory) -Cataphract
GM Whirlwind		  = 120mm (Thunder ridge & Wolves on the border) -Marauder
GM Whirlwind		  = 50mm (killing field) -Marauder
Armstrong J11		 = 80mm or 90mm (Thunder ridge) -Shawdow Hawk
Imperator-A		   = 80mm (Price of Glory) -Riflemen
Whirlwind			 = 60mm (Price of glory) -Wolverine
Whirlwind			 = 90mm (Wolves on the border) -Wolverine
Imperator Ultra AC-5  = 80mm (Storms of fate) -Vulcan & Daikyu
Armstrong AC-5		= 50mm (Double blind) -Clint
Armstrong AC-5		= 105mm (TRO 3075) -Merkava Hvy Tank
Pontiac Light		 = 40mm (Illusions of victory) -Striker mech
Snake killer LAC5	 = 60mm (Battlecorps) -Shadowhawk-9D
Mydron Model RC RAC5  = 50mm (A call to arms & fortress republic) -Legionnaire & Rifleman
Mydron Tornado  RAC5  = 50mm (By Temptations and By War) -DI Schmitt
Defiance type J AC-5  = 75mm (Heir to the dragon) -Zeus 6S
================================
Class 10 Autocannons
================================
Luxor-D				= 80mm (Price of glory, Ghost of winter) -Centuien
Mydron Excel UAC	   = 80mm (Patriots and tyrents) -Enforcer
Mydron Excel LBX	   = 80mm (Patriots and tyrents) -Dragon Fire
Mydron Excel LBX	   = 80mm (Illusions of victory)  -Cataphract
Defiance Disintegrator?= 100mm (end game) -Banshee
Mydron Model B		 = 80mm (Flash point) -Bushwacker
Federated AC-10		= 80mm (Flash point) -Enforcer
Imperator Code Red	 = 100mm (Flashpoint) -Challenger MBT
KaliYama			   = 80mm (Illusions of victory) -Orion
Imperator Code Red	 = 80mm (Illusions of victory) -Emperor
Imperator-B			= 80mm (Warrior en Guard) Urbanmech (implyed to be similer in caliber as the Riflemen)
================================
Class 20 Autocannons
================================
Death Giver				= 100mm (Heir to the dragon) -Atlas
Pontiac 100				= 100mm (Heir to the dragon) -Victor
Armstrong				  = 120mm (binding force) -Von Luckner MBT
Chemjet					= 185mm (TRO 3026) -Demolisher I tank
Crusher SH				 = 150mm (TRO 3026) -Hetzer Assault gun (or 120mm Threads of ambition)
Defiance Thunder Ultra	 = 120mm (Patriots and Tyrants) -Blitzkrig
Defiance Disintegrator LBX = 120mm (Patriots and Tyrants) -Barghest -Illusions of victory & The Dying time as well
Kali Yama Big Bore		 = 120mm (Threads of ambition) -Thunder
Tomodzuru				  = 180mm (Era Report 3052) -Hunchback
Luxuor Devastator		  = 120mm (Storms of fate) -Typhoon UAV
Death Giver				= 120mm (Storms of Fate) -King Crab

================================
Unknown type
================================
Jagermech "500mm" AC (Double blind) -most likely a typo
Mackie 5S AC-5 = 110mm (Birth of a King)
Jagermech 7F RAC-5 = 80mm
Templar omni, Grayson config AC-5 = 40mm (Imminent Crisis)
Blackjack omni LBX-10 = 80mm

Clan
Type 9 UAC 10 = 75mm
Type 10 UAC 20 = 120mm
Type 20 UAC 20 = 200mm
Type 25 UAC 2 = 50mm
Type 31 UAC 5 = 40mm
Type Kov LBX-10 = 75 or 150mm (same book two diffrent vehicles)
Type Covr-X 40mm

Wolves on the border LRMs = 75mm catapult ch 19
Gauss rifle = 10cm -starlord ch 2
infantry HMG "spanner" 15mm (not sure where this one is from)
Shrapnel mentions HE shells, a gray death book also mentions HE rounds...
blood legacy, unknown vtol, door mounted rotary 12.7mm MG
The Dying time, jeep mg = 13mm 43 gram -recount of thunder rift (1500 RPM)
temptation by war, ryoken II MGs = 20mm (likely AC-2s, as I do not think it has MGs)
patriots stand, generic gun trucks, 20mm "Gatling" MGs
flight of the falcon, mining mech mod, twin 50 cal MGs
Their are a few more but this is most of what I found, as one can see their is a few contradictions.

[Pht]

Nebfer, on 08 August 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Parden the spelling, but this is from my raw files... (txt files)

....

Nebfer. Every time I think there's no hope for me, you show me that there are others who are way more demented when it comes to knowing obscenely impossible to know things in the BTU.

I don't know if this a compliment to you, to me, or an insult to me or you ... or both!