98 replies to this topic

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Tegiminis, on 15 July 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

Because the values are actually somewhere on the order of 25/32% armor/internals. Saying it's 5x is actually a lie.

So the jist is, increase armor though? Regardless of the values.

Now I have 2 questions for that.

One is, why even bother allowing us to hit other parts of the mech? The problem with instant pinpoint convergence is that all we do is aim CT constantly, or RT/LT if we know it's XL (and obviously legs for lights).

Second is, what do you do when newer weapons start to come out? Keep increasing armor/internal values? It just starts to get dumb after a while.

What do you do with the clans?

What happens when we have a mech that sport 2 Clan ER PPC's, 2 Clan ER Large Lasers and 2 Clan Large Pulse Lasers?

Once again up the armor?

[Mister Blastman]

Tegiminis, on 15 July 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

Convergence is not the issue, and screwing with convergence in any significant way beyond adding quirks to certain bots is an unnecessary increase in complexity for little to no benefit. I have no clue where all you grognards latched onto the notion that "being a good shot" is the problem, but this advocacy for a step backwards is a prime example why nobody actually takes you seriously besides other braindead jerks.

It isn't that we want to punish skill--it is that the current system of convergence requires NO skill. You point, click, do 35 - 50 damage to a single spot instantaneously and win.

Some of us, like myself, have been playing Mechwarrior since Mechwarrior 1 and playing online since Mechwarrior 2. Over the years we have seen how the game has evolved, problems formed and some problems solved and others made worse. The most apparent of which was convergence, which started becoming an issue in Mechwarrior 3 and was only exacerbated in Mechwarrior 4 and culminated here.

The system we have requires no skill and rewards weapons that deliver instant damage to a single area in one shot. That's the problem. In closed beta they nerfed the medium laser because 9 and 11 medium laser Hunchies were running around ****** everyone. Then they nerfed engine sizes to bring things in line. Some of us argued nerfing mlas by upping heat was wrong because...

a. It didn't work in Mechwarrior 3
b. It didn't work in Mechwarrior 4

In Mechwarrior 3, nerfing mlas lead to small laser boating striders and shadowcats. Some of us saw how that played out.
In Mechwarrior 4, nerfing mlas (among other things) lead to boating large lasers, PPCs and Light Gauss. We remember that clearly like it was yesterday and still have a knot in our stomach over it.

Convergence was the problem at the time and nothing was done to address it. If you're concerned about high alpha to a single location--why not make it harder to hit that location.

Granted, OP, I am ALL about skill. I have a long history of this. Dueling is my favorite part of Mechwarrior. Thus, in closed beta I also proposed not doubling, but tripling the number of armor sections in the LT/CT/RT so you'd have a 3x3 grid or a upper, middle and lower part of each section. Each section would have the same amount of points of armor as a normal one. Yeah, mechs could be more durable, but they'd also require more skill to hit the same spot repeatedly to take them down.

I'm all about skill, so next time, OP, don't assume those of us that want convergence addressed... aren't. If you disagree, I'll gladly duel you 1on1 whenever this is allowed, laser weapons only (Jenners preferrably).

[Tegiminis]

The best fix to this problem is to naturally pour a lot of beer into your fusion reactor so your mech is really drunk. Then, when he can't see or hit anything, push him into the battlefield. Go mech go! Frolic in the fields of battle. Join in conflict with your bretheren! Fire your lasers and missiles and bullets every which way! Truly you shall be the master of your own fate.

Oh. He was shot in the face by a sniper.

Edit: Did you seriously just do a "1v1 me bro post"? I didn't think the roleplayer could be topped, but I was wrong.

Edited by Tegiminis, 15 July 2013 - 07:54 AM.

[Otto Cannon]

Edward Cullen Kerensky, on 15 July 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

*SNIP*

Congratulations. I don't think I've ever seen a post begging to be insta-deleted as hard as that one. The whole thread will be lucky not to get sucked into the banhammer void with it when it goes.

[SuperJoe]

1v1 me bro, cornmander perferably, machineguns only

[Tegiminis]

1v1 urbanmech, alpine, mgs only

Edited by Tegiminis, 15 July 2013 - 07:59 AM.

[BookWyrm]

Forum battles are the new meta.

[Kaldor]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 July 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

Can you please stop saying that changing instant convergence is the same as adding COF or randomness. It's not.

It's just ENDING INSTANT CONVERGENCE.

It means your weapons take time to attain perfect convergence.

You still always know where your weapons will go if done properly.

No random at all.

But if you prefer chain fire only, I'm fine with that too.

The idea of changing convergence doesnt really change anything. If you add convergence time, youre not hurting the sniper or LRM boat at 800m as they are largely static anyway. The players you are hurting is the brawlers and strikers that need to move, twist, fire, move, turn, twist away so they dont get blown up, all in the fraction of a second. If you create a CoF, which you are if you need time for targeting reticules to settle before firing, your nerfing anyone that absolutely has to shoot on the move.

Ive played my share of FPS shooters, and this solution doesnt work for MWO. There HAS to a run and gun element. Remove that and the meta will never change and brawling will die even more.

People need to get off this bandwagon before PGI does something stupid like implements it.

And yes, if you force people to chain fire to keep heat under control, you control the alpha meta. The problem is NOT convergence, the problem is 2-6 PPCs and or a gauss, and no penalties.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

You are taking the most simplistic version of it and not bothering to work through potential modifiers.

Lets say 2 of the modifiers that effect convergence are your movement and your opponents movement.

If we are worried about Snipers, perhaps targets movement slows convergence by 50%.

Whereas your own movement only slows convergence by 15%.

That means that the light mech moving will converge a lot faster on the static stalker. And give it a chance to hit a perfect alpha and get behind cover.

numbers subject to change obviously.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 15 July 2013 - 08:13 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Otto Cannon, on 15 July 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

Congratulations. I don't think I've ever seen a post begging to be insta-deleted as hard as that one. The whole thread will be lucky not to get sucked into the banhammer void with it when it goes.

It was the most epic thread ever written that wasn't seen.

[zraven7]

...

...

Why is there 4 pages of Troll Food here?

Seriously, he's just flaming you guys. Stop and let the thread die.

[Obelus]

Adding randomness to direct fire weapons in MWO would royally **** off most of the people playing.

It's just a really bad idea.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Obelus, on 15 July 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

Adding randomness to direct fire weapons in MWO would royally **** off most of the people playing.

It's just a really bad idea.

Another person who doesn't bother to read.

Good lord, how did you guys manage to type in your credit card numbers to become founders? Did you need someone to read it off for you?

[BookWyrm]

Quote

...

...

Why is there 4 pages of Troll Food here?

Seriously, he's just flaming you guys. Stop and let the thread die.

[Roland]

DOWN HERE, IT'S OUR TIME.
IT'S OUR TIME, DOWN HERE.

[Gallowglas]

Obelus, on 15 July 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

Adding randomness to direct fire weapons in MWO would royally **** off most of the people playing.

It's just a really bad idea.

Unless there's a coherent, predictable, weapon-specific, and adaptable pattern to the scatter that's addressed properly through adjustments to the reticle. Many people here claiming they don't want pinpoint accuracy would be the same people complaining that the game was penalizing skill by adding random spread or spread that disallowed any opportunity for a high alpha. I think there's a middle ground there somewhere though.

Edited by Gallowglas, 15 July 2013 - 08:27 AM.

[Obelus]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 July 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

Another person who doesn't bother to read.

Good lord, how did you guys manage to type in your credit card numbers to become founders? Did you need someone to read it off for you?

So removing convergence does not add randomness to damage hits?

[Kaldor]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 July 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

You are taking the most simplistic version of it and not bothering to work through potential modifiers.

Lets say 2 of the modifiers that effect convergence are your movement and your opponents movement.

If we are worried about Snipers, perhaps targets movement slows convergence by 50%.

Whereas your own movement only slows convergence by 15%.

That means that the light mech moving will converge a lot faster on the static stalker. And give it a chance to hit a perfect alpha and get behind cover.

numbers subject to change obviously.

Modifiers...

So if Im in a brawl at 150m or less and my target is moving and I am moving then we would have 2 types of convergence to deal with?

It just doesnt work. Even if you tweak the numbers.

And you expect PGI to be able to code this without breaking something else?

[Diablobo]

To all you idiots who think that PPC and missile adjustments are going to make one bit of difference....

YOU'RE WRONG

The matchmaker and its lopsided battles is the real problem.

Quit focusing on the minutia of weapons and look at the big picture.

[Otto Cannon]

Obelus, on 15 July 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

So removing convergence does not add randomness to damage hits?

Correct.

You have clear markers to show exactly how the spread groupfire shots will land. Nothing random about it at all. You need to use skill to either single fire and hit the same place or compensate for the spread on an alpha strike.

http://mwomercs.com/...active-reticle/