109 replies to this topic

[Elizander]

Mediums have long been a point of discussion but I'll just summarize what I think about it from past things I posted and how the game is right now.

• I feel that Mediums still need more maneuverability and agility. Faster turning, twisting, wider range of arm motions and torso up/down movement and acceleration/deceleration.
  
• Torso twist speed and mech turning speed needs to be independent of torso twist range and a separate variable added to modify it based on engine speed per chassis so that Mediums just flat out twist and turn faster.
  
• Mediums cannot compete in long-range snipe fests due to their inability to carry enough weapons and having way less armor than larger mechs (thank you, Captain Obvious for this one). The number of hard points they have won't change this due to weight limitations.
  
• I do not think that the current issue with Medium mechs can be addressed by sticking to ideas based on Table Top or similar rules.

Now, without messing with the original numbers for the game (armor, engines, etc), there are still ways for certain underperforming mechs to be updated in order for them to be slightly more fun and viable to use. Here are a bunch of ideas that can perhaps be the basis for something that will improve the situation:


Give Medium Mechs more special perks such as:

Hunchbacks with hunches (4G, 4H, 4J, 4P) - Due to the specialized and bulky housing of the right torso, these mechs receive 20% less damage when hit in this location (effectively raising the armor from 40/8->48/8). The bulkier design also reduces critical hit damage to components in the right torso by 20% (Defensive perk).

The 4P's specialized right torso allows smaller energy weapons (medium/small) to be more heat efficient thanks to the design so firing 6 energy weapons from the right torso will allow 10% of the heat to be quickly dissipated after 0.5 seconds assuming no other weapon from other locations are fired (Offensive perk).

The 4G's right torso is so robust that it can handle more violent forces than other mechs (it's freaking huge). It's specially made for ballistic weapons, particularly the AC/20. Due to whatever technical mumbo-jumbo that you can think of, AC's deal 10% more damage when fired from the right torso of a 4G and an AC/20's cooldown is reduced by 0.5 seconds (Offensive perk).

The CN9-A and the AL's left arm takes 20% less damage. The 9D's left arm takes 10% less damage and the YLW's left arm takes 15% less damage. (Defensive perk)

Critical damage to items housed in a Centurions right arm is reduced by 20%. (Defensive perk).

You get the idea. You can add bonuses to these mechs without affecting the hard numbers (even if percentage reduction and increases generally affect the numbers on the battlefield, it will not mess up mech construction compared to changing the actual weight of weapons and the armor points of the mech).

These don't require any remodeling and can probably be coded in since they already have the basis for it (Missile Bay doors). It can be extended to other mechs but heavy emphasis on mediums to make them a little more fun to play and to make up just a little for their large hit boxes while not messing with the canon weight and construction system at all.

Edited by Elizander, 20 July 2013 - 09:01 AM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Perks like that would be a nice element to include.

[Baba Yogi]

If you really want to buff mediums just remove the engine limits. Lights cant go much beyond where they are in terms of speed and upping the speed on heavy + is just too punishing on tonnage. That nerf was made specifically for meds. PPl were crying why should they pick a light when they could have similar speed+weapon + more armor on meds. Frankly they have half the profile meds have i never get why they cried so loud.

[Cpt Leprechaun]

Wow probably one of the stupider ideas I've heard to balance mediums. Please don't continue playing with this idea like its an actual viable fix.


/thread

[Talrich]

PP,

Firstly, mediums are really not that bad except for getting one shotted by the current high alpha meta. Yes, I get more c-bills from running and assault due to higher damage totals, but I can pull of a fine win rate with either.

I think the larger problem for mediums is that the medium laser is no more heat efficient than a PPC and SRMs have been trash for awhile. It's not that medium lasers don't hit hard enough. It's that they're too hot to maintain higher DPS than the larger weapons.

Lower medium laser heat, and add tonnage limits for community warfare and mediums will be just fine.

[Bagheera]

Lordhammer, on 19 July 2013 - 11:26 PM, said:

If you really want to buff mediums just remove the engine limits. Lights cant go much beyond where they are in terms of speed and upping the speed on heavy + is just too punishing on tonnage. That nerf was made specifically for meds. PPl were crying why should they pick a light when they could have similar speed+weapon + more armor on meds. Frankly they have half the profile meds have i never get why they cried so loud.

Assaults cried just as much as lights did in those days. We had good mediums, but no one wanted to play that game because it messed with their world-view that mediums are supposed to suck. No, really, there are people that are convinced that mediums should suck and the only reason to run them is to fill out a tonnage deck. Because, you know, playing a canon fodder role is fun in a video game.

[Corvus Antaka]

I'm completely happy with mediums. even in the current environment my mediums compete well and have 2.5 or greater KDR's, primarily from pugging matches.

The only issue is tonnage limits, you cannot expect 8 hunchbacks to go head to head with 8 atlai and win, nor should you. once otnnage limits come in mediums will shine more than people expect in my opinion.

[James The Fox Dixon]

The only way to revive the medium mechs is to implement weight limits on drops. This will enforce the rarity of heavy and especially assault mechs while making mediums the work horses they're supposed to be. If PGI would implement proper rewards for all of the weight classes then mediums will begin to shine as would lights.

[Erata]

Prosperity Park, on 16 July 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

More hardpoints means the capacity to carry more lightweight, short-range weapons -> means more use overall of those Mechs and more brawling. The Stalker, for example, can carry more firepower than most Mechs simply because it has many Hardpoints (hardpoints is a much greater factor than Mech Weight when it comes to Brawling Energy Weapons and SRMs)

Sweeping through the Medium Mech class and providing an overall-infusion of more hardpoints would give them the capacity to hold their own against Heavier Mechs because the Meds could carry more powerful-but-short-ranged weapons to counteract the Heavies'/Assaults' loadouts.

If Mediums get more hardpoints, then more Mediums will be on the field using their speed and maneuverability to deliver the hurt from their short-ranged weapons. This will curb the Sniper Meta a bit, too, because a Medium Mech bristling with MLs and SRMs can out-firepower a Gauss+ PPC sniper of a heavier weight class.


How do others feel about this?

I would have to say no, it wouldn't revive them, because mediums aren't durable enough.
Boating shorter ranged weapons would end up being overspecialized, even on maps like Canyon. I don't even want to think about how they'd play on Alpine.

[Noesis]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 20 July 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

I'm completely happy with mediums. even in the current environment my mediums compete well and have 2.5 or greater KDR's, primarily from pugging matches.

The only issue is tonnage limits, you cannot expect 8 hunchbacks to go head to head with 8 atlai and win, nor should you. once otnnage limits come in mediums will shine more than people expect in my opinion.

The problem being that some pilots aren't really asking for Mediums to be as combat effective as their larger counterparts (though the ability to add more boating as per the OP perhaps miss guided interests of not understanding limits about the medium class to make them effective for use). Also it is easy to recognise that Mediums can be used well under the right conditions, some variants shining through, but on average as is mediums are their to pad kill stats more as a symptom of the current meta which is longer ranged, heavier hitting, damage taking, turtling teams who can easily shrug off the use of mediums.

However both the size and speed issues of medium Mechs are apparent. PGI have acknowledged that both of these things are not ideal but have technical or economical issues associated with them. This is a fact not some player invention. So much so that when you compare their inequality it makes them futile to use in the main (especially for more redundant variants only leveled since the Mech tree requires it). But this isn't to make them stand toe to toe with larger Mechs it is simply to make them more viable for their own class.

The future may look brighter for Mediums with the introduction of more orientated features to the Meta game that aren't solely and consistently based on weapon stats, which seems to be the main argument and limited focus for the majority of balancing arguments, which is a pity as there are more elements that could be considered.

So taking the Size and speed restrictions as a given as they have been previously acknowledged by PGI but perhaps having their hands tied by economic or current technical issues in resolving those areas maybe there are more subtle and indirect aspects to consider that may help the medium class.

Which is a shame as more of the surprise insurgent or Guerrilla style game play and tactics could be explored with more prevalence if the Medium was configured for that kind of role that emphasises more mobility and survivability by not being an equivalent size as an assault, especially when you consider the range differences and numbers of weapons associated with weapons use between the two groups due to the fact that larger Mechs have the tonnage or capacity to do so without compromising other capabilites they need.

Drop tonnage limitations will encourage diversity, even with flexible limits hopefully. Though I have reservations that the min/maxers will still leave the mediums (and perhaps most heavies) out of the equation and try assault/light splits for groups without more restrictive methods here. However personally I would like to see the flexible option explored first in the hope that the limits would naturally encourage more diversity.

Mediums could have more subtle tweaks to both movement and torso agility and range of movement to encourage that effectiveness in capabilities over larger mechs.

Overheads like R&R could be re-introduced even at a lesser scale than previous beta test values to help make them more attractive to run than more expensive tech use.

Mobility could be rewarded more in the game as opposed to combat effectiveness.

Current existing rewards could be skewed by weight class to afford potential capabilities and balance equality on the field.

Game modes could be changed to encourage mobility as opposed to turtle-ing in specific zones even if at times the furr ball fight can be fun.

So I think overall I would hope not to try and make mediums as combat effective as their larger brothers, but at present they simply do not have a place in the current Meta. The adjustments then making them more survivable and having a genuine effectiveness that then isn't simply overridden in choice by other class use, as they don't shine or stand out in any capacity as is in the game atm.