109 replies to this topic

[Kanatta Jing]

Well... A Hunchback that actually had enough Ballistic hard points to effecively boat MG's would certainly be interesting. By which I mean 4 - 6

Many Mediums already have enough hardpoints but there are a few that do come up shy. I for one wouldn't be against seeing a few mediums granted extra slots on a case by case basis.

[Lucian Nostra]

Braggart, on 16 July 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 1 mech can mount that many mediums. WTF do we do about all the other mechs. I disagree though, it doesnt hit hard, it doesnt move fast.

pfft before the PPC meta started to become as dominate as it is I had a 4.50 K/D in my 4P, it's a medium with a 45 point alpha (dual PPC gauss is only 35)

But it's spread damage alpha and lighter armor load can not compete with massed assaults with pin point alphas.

I still maintain a 2.35 k/d with it but it the meta is just too pin point, and to heavy

edit: my point about the 4P being that even with that it still doesn't compete in todays meta, so wtf does it matter if we give all mediums that many HPs? They still lack the armor to survive and don't have the tonnage to rock multiple PPCs and gauss rifles to land the hits Highlanders/Cataphracts/Jagers/Stalkers put out.

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 16 July 2013 - 10:11 AM.

[scJazz]

Couple of point PP...

1 ) The Hunchback is superior to the Trebuchet as a LRMBoat specifically because of its small tube count. OK, we have been going over and over and over this subject for the last month or so. Small tube count or small launcher size equals CT pwnage. Lobbing LRM30 plus Artemis + TAG at an unmoving Atlas = some missiles miss and the cloud that hits scatters damage. Lobbing LRM30 plus nothing through a 4 to 10 tube count (or 6xLRM5) at an Atlas = CT pwn from hades. This is why my Quickdraw 4G is now preferable to my Catapult A1 for LRM use. (No I'm not putting 6x LRM5 on it even though it works!). Actually what is preferable for LRM use is to specifically use a Mech that isn't designed for it. How about that for terribad!

2 ) Until Mediums are physically smaller I'll turn you into a smoking crater long before you can do anything special. Again my Quickdraw > Trebuchet/Cent AL/HBK Energy setups.


3 )

[Unbound Inferno]

Kanatta Jing, on 16 July 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Well... A Hunchback that actually had enough Ballistic hard points to effecively boat MG's would certainly be interesting. By which I mean 4 - 6

Many Mediums already have enough hardpoints but there are a few that do come up shy. I for one wouldn't be against seeing a few mediums granted extra slots on a case by case basis.

If they reworked the Hardpoints to Crit Sizes, that shoulder could mount 10 MGs.

[Braggart]

Lucian Nostra, on 16 July 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

pfft before the PPC meta started to become as dominate as it is I had a 4.50 K/D in my 4P, it's a medium with a 45 point alpha (dual PPC gauss is only 35)

But it's spread damage alpha and lighter armor load can not compete with massed assaults with pin point alphas.

I still maintain a 2.35 k/d with it but it the meta is just too pin point, and to heavy

really.............................................................. I know how you feel about the 9m. But you are basically saying that all mediums are fine because you do well in the 4P.

You are wrong, you live in this bubble where all mediums are 4P hunches. They arent.

[TheFlyingScotsman]

Mediums already have too little room/open weight for their current hardpoints at the moment, often forcing us to use XLs over standard just to be fast and dangerous enough. Zombie builds are great, but they're either slow or soft hitters and it shows.

Edited by TheFlyingScotsman, 16 July 2013 - 10:01 AM.

[Kanatta Jing]

Unbound Inferno, on 16 July 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

If they reworked the Hardpoints to Crit Sizes, that shoulder could mount 10 MGs.

And then you explained why that was a terrible idea.

[Lucian Nostra]

Braggart, on 16 July 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

really.............................................................. I know how you feel about the 9m. But you are basically saying that all mediums are fine because you do well in the 4P.

You are wrong, you live in this bubble where all mediums are 4P hunches. They arent.

I edited for clarity, because I had a feeling my point would be missed, Im saying that even with a decent speed and a heavy punch from 9 mediums it still doesn't hold up in todays "lets all play heavy/assaults with gauss rifles and ppcs"

Adding more hardpoints to mediums isn't going to change that, the 4P already fails and without drop tonnage limits or hard point restrictions nothing is going to change the fact that mediums suck in the meta.

I'd love for them to fix it but this isn't the solution, I loved running my 4P before and miss wrecking face with it..

[Sephlock]

Prosperity Park, on 16 July 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

The Limited Hardpoint system does have a decent enough function, though, of preventing Mechs with 30 MG, 15 MLs, or 10 SRM packs.

Mmmm 30 MG.

[Novakaine]

Not canon.
Not gonna be happening.

[Thundercles]

Regarding additional hardpoints: I think it would add variety to potential loadouts, but until mixed builds are more feasible I think it would have very little impact on medium mech usage. Tonnage will restrict firepower to about the same levels regardless of hardpoints.

jakucha, on 16 July 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

Mediums aren't supposed to be able to compete with most heavies and any assaults unless in bigger groups. I don't think I agree mediums need more firepower also.

People keep saying that, but that is the opposite of the INTENT of the lore. (Whether the game rules ever bore that out is another thing entirely.)

A quote from Sarna:

"Better armed than light 'Mechs, medium 'Mechs can often outmaneuver heavier opponents in combat and bring their weapons to bear with better effect to the point of being superior combatants in single combat, given time and suitable terrain."

Edited by Thundercles, 19 July 2013 - 03:45 AM.

[East Indy]

No, it wouldn't help medium contention with heavier 'Mechs, because that's a fact of life, and would only tempt players to the same all-of-one-thing excess that PGI just nerfed.

Weight limits are the first change. When there's basically one assault to a team, 50 tons becomes a lot stronger by relation.

The second change, I feel more and more, is to limit the top speed to 135kph (tabletop 8/12 plus Speed Tweak). Fast mediums like the Cicada are fine; but the rest are missing that edge making so much more of a difference in this game than with a +3 penalty to To-Hit rolls.

Two changes, and average mediums start to feel like the natural choice.

[Blackadder]

medium mechs have to mount low weight weaponry, which restricts there range during an engagement or reduce overall damage to equip long range weapons.

Medium mechs have no real speed advantage, unless you run a trebuchet or a cent D. Compared to the Quickdraw, cat, phract you really only gain 8-10 KPH in most cases, and you cant outrun damage from those mechs due to there ability to outrange you, and can keep up with you easily.

with the slope changes, medium mechs are now forced into firing lanes, or have to use buggy slope mechanics to crawl up slopes, and are prevented from hitting a flank as quickly prior to the changes, given that most mediums do not have JJ it penalizes those mechs more then the ones with JJ.

Adding more hardpoints does nothing for medium mechs really. what needs to happen is some reasonable changes to slope mechanics for mediums and lights, possibly allow mediums to mount larger engines into the 100-110 KPH range, or basically make the long range weapons all mechs use, actually be sniper weapons, not good dps & great sniper weapons by reducing the rate of fire they can put out, or put tonnage limits in the game to reduce the number of assaults & heavies, which wont go well wtih the random guy who wants to pew pew.

[Thragen]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 16 July 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

They would still die before they could get into short range. Speed is what mediums are missing.

I couldn't agree more!!!!

[zhajin]

unless you put on 4-6 missile sots, more hard points are not going to help. we already have mediums with 4 balistics and 9 energy. however the only thing mediums could effectively boat (due to weight and heat issues) would be srms, and even 3 of those are getting excessive.

[Kaldor]

Prosperity Park, on 16 July 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

More hardpoints means the capacity to carry more lightweight, short-range weapons -> means more use overall of those Mechs and more brawling. The Stalker, for example, can carry more firepower than most Mechs simply because it has many Hardpoints (hardpoints is a much greater factor than Mech Weight when it comes to Brawling Energy Weapons and SRMs)

Sweeping through the Medium Mech class and providing an overall-infusion of more hardpoints would give them the capacity to hold their own against Heavier Mechs because the Meds could carry more powerful-but-short-ranged weapons to counteract the Heavies'/Assaults' loadouts.

If Mediums get more hardpoints, then more Mediums will be on the field using their speed and maneuverability to deliver the hurt from their short-ranged weapons. This will curb the Sniper Meta a bit, too, because a Medium Mech bristling with MLs and SRMs can out-firepower a Gauss+ PPC sniper of a heavier weight class.


How do others feel about this?

I missed this gem. But no is my answer.

Why? How about we fix the brawling weapons like MLs, MPLs, and LPLs before we do anything rash? Those weapons are brawler weapons.

Medium laser is too hot. Reduce heat to 3.

Medium Pulse Laser is too hot. Reduce heat to 4. Reduce pulse time to .5 seconds.

Large Pulse laser is too hot. Reduce heat to 8. Reduce damage to 10. Reduce pulse time to .5 seconds.

[Rippthrough]

No, they've just nerfed the mediums that could boat small weapons anyway.
Mediums need resizing and/or their engine cap rethinking.

[MrMasakari]

Kaldor, on 19 July 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

I missed this gem. But no is my answer.

Why? How about we fix the brawling weapons like MLs, MPLs, and LPLs before we do anything rash? Those weapons are brawler weapons.

Medium laser is too hot. Reduce heat to 3.

Medium Pulse Laser is too hot. Reduce heat to 4. Reduce pulse time to .5 seconds.

Large Pulse laser is too hot. Reduce heat to 8. Reduce damage to 10. Reduce pulse time to .5 seconds.

This, alongside heat nerfs to ppcs rather than this clunky alpha system which actually affects medium and heavy mechs more than it does assault mechs, assault mechs actually being the problem due to relatively minor tonnage restrictions in comparison to medium mechs.

The most viable medium mech builds were in my eyes hit and run builds, Srm ML/ SPL builds and so on, and with the recent srm buff, we may start seeing them become more useful again compared to the assault moshpit going on at the moment. (Which clearly PGI promote)

Edited by Artaire, 19 July 2013 - 06:07 AM.

[DoubleEdged]

I run Hunchies and Centurions, and I find that the current hardpoint limit works quite well for the Mediums.

I'm not suppose to be able to 1v1 an Assault or Heavy in the face.

I'd rather be running next to my buddy Atlas and be that satellite gun next to him shooting the same guy.

On the other hand, I will agree that there are still problems in our class.

If we're on these support roles, and forced to scout, then we're missing speed and become a big target.

If we're running scouting, we're missing damage or armor and missing an ability to properly support.

Mediums are technically suppose to be a Jack of All Trades, Master of None. I find I am currently still unable to do this.

However, more weapons does not solve the issue. It's actually really difficult for me to even evaluate this because we have to take into account what people are going to do to break the game vs what they Game wants them to do.

[Sheraf]

I wouldn't argree with this. If you compare a Stalker brawler to any Medium brawler. The Stalker is powerful but lack of manuveribility. The medium on the other hand has very good manuveribility. It is a trade off. Enmassing weapon doesn't help.