109 replies to this topic

[Kaldor]

Artaire, on 19 July 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

[size=4]

This, alongside heat nerfs to ppcs rather than this clunky alpha system which actually affects medium and heavy mechs more than it does assault mechs, assault mechs actually being the problem due to relatively minor tonnage restrictions in comparison to medium mechs.

The most viable medium mech builds were in my eyes hit and run builds, Srm ML/ SPL builds and so on, and with the recent srm buff, we may start seeing them become more useful again compared to the assault moshpit going on at the moment. (Which clearly PGI promote)

I dont honestly think the alpha penalty system actually effects lights and mediums that much, if at all. Their are only 2 mechs, Hunchy4P and BJ1X that can boat lasers. It only starts to kick in on the heavies and assaults. I still think PPCs need to be set at 10/15 heat...

[Murzao]

More hardpoints won't do jack. There's only 2 things that could/should happen:


#1, upgrade artillery/airstrike to punish turretwarrior and make heavy/assaults use more tons to go faster. It would also fix jumpsniping as if I'm able to drop an airstrike on the head of that poptart...he won't come out again.
#2, remove speed/turnspeed upgrades from assaults/heavies......this by itself is the greatest buff to mediums ever. They can keep their firepower but the tradeoff is going slow/turning slow as ****.


This coming from a pure medium pilot who can 1v1 any assault/heavy easily I don't need more help I just need for the enemy assaults to not all cower in the same spot like lemmings.


My current favorite is a YLW with UAC5 and ERLL...more hardpoints won't mean squat to him. He's got a standard engine and still cracks 90 I tanked 2 Atlai yesterday with him and won and finished round at 16% health and was still alive. I can mow down any single heavy assault it's only 'hard' when the enemy team all cowers together and arty/airstrike do nothing to make them spread out.


PS: <3 SRM upgrade!

Edited by Murzao, 19 July 2013 - 06:29 AM.

[Kaldor]

Murzao, on 19 July 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

More hardpoints won't do jack. There's only 2 things that could/should happen: #1, upgrade artillery/airstrike to punish turretwarrior and make heavy/assaults use more tons to go faster. It would also fix jumpsniping as if I'm able to drop an airstrike on the head of that poptart...he won't come out again. #2, remove speed/turnspeed upgrades from assaults/heavies......this by itself is the greatest buff to mediums ever. This coming from a pure medium pilot who can 1v1 any assault/heavy easily I don't need more help I just need for the enemy assaults to not all cower in the same spot like lemmings.

What do you give assaults when you remove perks from the pilot tree?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

lol, and where do I find the extra weight to use these hardpoints?

Even with an XL275, it is really chincy to pack much in the way of weapons into my Centurion, and it's bad to use an XL in a Centurion anyway.

We've explained ways to fix mediums (better manuvering, more speed, smaller models, get rid of instant convergence). Why do we keep having to go over this?

[Murzao]

Kaldor, on 19 July 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

What do you give assaults when you remove perks from the pilot tree?

The ability to carry more weapons and have more armor?? oh wait they already have that.

[Kaldor]

Murzao, on 19 July 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

The ability to carry more weapons and have more armor?? oh wait they already have that.

Wow, what a great answer. I never thought of that.

Some mechs need to be tweaked slightly in the model department. Example: We ran a couple Cents, a Highlander, and a Atlas the other night. Standing the Cent right in front the of the Highlander, the Highlander was just barely visible...

TLDR: Smaller is better for survivability.

[Ngamok]

No. They don't need more.

[Barantor]

More maneuverability would help not more weapons. Trebuchets that aren't as tall as victors would help a bit too.

Take the spider for example, it's weird hitboxes aside it is a very small target. It has 20 tons difference than my Trebuchet.

Now compare the Treb to an Atlas. Atlas is double the tonnage but the size difference is not comparable at all really.

I know there is all this talk about volume and mass and whatnot, but a bigger target is factually easier to hit.

Let's make the mediums at least be able to dodge better, if not get a slight size decrease across the board.

[Roughneck45]

It's not like they have to tonnage to make more hardpoints work anyway.

Besides, we already have what you are talking about. It's called a swayback. They are good, but hardly curbing the meta in any way shape or form. Neither is the 8mlas Blackjack.

[Murzao]

Kaldor, on 19 July 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

Wow, what a great answer. I never thought of that.

Some mechs need to be tweaked slightly in the model department. Example: We ran a couple Cents, a Highlander, and a Atlas the other night. Standing the Cent right in front the of the Highlander, the Highlander was just barely visible...

TLDR: Smaller is better for survivability.

I've ran Centurions almost exclusively (95% of games played) since the game came out....I have 7 in my mechbay


....and never have I felt like the Cents needed to be smaller...ever. What needs fixing is airstrike/artillery. Spending resources remodelling mechs is not the answer.

[Bagheera]

hammerreborn, on 16 July 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

And if you really wanted a missile medium, there's the treb.

Don't make me laugh. The Treb should have been the missile medium, but because it was released when SRMs did 2.5 dmg each missile with a broken splash damage multiplier PGI nerfed it into the ******* ground by not giving it the number of launchers it should have. 5J with 1 missile hardpoint is a slap in the face when compared to the hunchie 4J. 5N is a worthless joke with only 1 hardpoint in each missile location, and the 3C barely fares better. 7M gets a NARC slot, big freaking deal.

The Cent-A still stands as the premiere missile medium, which is pretty damn sad since it appears to have 1 launcher, but gets 3 hardpoints.

Basically they saw what people could do with a TBT when SRMs were a broken mess and nerfed it into the ground. After SRMs got their nerf, the TBT became essentially pointless. I suppose you could run LRMS in it, but why? Hunchies and the Cent-A do that better and with either a smaller profile (hunchie) or broken hit-box-shoulder-armor-from-heck (cents). And let's be honest here. Most of the people interested in LRMS aren't going to tap a medium for this role anyway. That tends to be the domain of Catapults and larger.

Prosperity Park, on 16 July 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

Trebs have 2 Missile Hardpoints (except that one that has a single-tube launcher, as well, but that's not meant for SRM'ing anyone).

Trebs have 2x15-tube launchers, which implies you should be using LRM-15. Hunchies have much smaller launchers, which implies you should be using more weapons of smaller size each... but no, they do not allow for the "more weapons" part of that trade.

TBT got the shaft, see above.

To answer your query. More hardpoints would not necessarily help out the medium. Re-arranging the hardpoints on the TBT would help that chassis specifically, but the core problem of the medium is that they had their maneuverability over-nerfed back when engine restrictions were added. Mediums, as a class, need to be given a blanket boost in turning radius, acceleration, deceleration, torso range/speed, and arm articulation. This will give them back a mobility advantage over heavier mechs, while retaining the speed advantage of smaller mechs.

Personally, I think that we cannot sort out the speed/maneuverability problems of the medium without addressing netcode so that the current mechs that are SpeedWalled (Spider, Cicada, incoming Flea, Locust, etc) can actually achieve their true speeds.

It's a whole "Woman who swallowed the fly" thing.

Edited by Bagheera, 19 July 2013 - 07:35 AM.

[Barantor]

Murzao, on 19 July 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

I've ran Centurions almost exclusively (95% of games played) since the game came out....I have 7 in my mechbay


....and never have I felt like the Cents needed to be smaller...ever. What needs fixing is airstrike/artillery. Spending resources remodelling mechs is not the answer.

Cents have that pencil thin CT and those big arm scraps when blown off that magically absorb things, so I would imagine you would be fine with Cents, as they behave kinda like they were a smaller size anyway. A hunchie, Treb and to lesser extent BJ Mechwarrior is in a different boat. Cicadas luck out being small anyway and having lots of speed.

The size does matter especially at range. I doubt anything will be done about it, so I hope they at least give more speed/maneuverability.

Edited by Barantor, 19 July 2013 - 07:40 AM.

[Shadey99]

Well As my favorite mech so far in MWO is the Cicada, I have some experience to say this on: No.

Oh sure, if I had 8 instead of 6 energy spots I could probably mix and match a bit more, but something like my 2A 2xLL + 4xML (comparable to a BJ or Hunchie in firepower, but faster) already hits hard (and runs hot). More Missile or Ballistic slots means way more space used for things like ammo. And for the person above who suggested 'crit hardpoint limits'... I viable 2xPPC+1xML (or 2xSL) build would have issues with your system. Though a 2xPPC build is no where near 'OP'.

The problem alot of builds have is that IS mechs in canon didn't run XL engines, FF, or ES except in specific versions and usually not all at once. This lets us use up way more empty space and focus more on a few specific weapons. I'd love to see the 'death by paper cuts' Locust IIC with it's MPL+6ER SL setup as a flanker/striker, it would fit the systems we have very well... You just can't get it's equal right now in an IS mech design.

There are 2 things that would help out the current meta however that do come from canon:

Mediums were the most commonly available mechs to buy. More than 40% of mechs in lore were mediums. About 30% were lights. Another 20% were heavies. Leaving ~10% to be assaults. We have an overflowing abundance of Assaults, a scattering of heavies, a few lights, and maybe a handful of mediums. I'd suggest radically raising prices on assaults and even heavies and do this retroactively even (for those you already own). Since we don't have to pay maintenance costs or upkeep these things should probably be figured into the initial cost to buy the mech. This may actually help PGI make money if they leave MC prices the same (So buying a heavy or assault in cash was even more effective, but it would hurt light and medium sales). Another option is adding scarcity, but this could be hard. The final option is everyones favorite 'drop weights', but I'm pretty sure we need UI 2.0 to even think about that (So we could actually select mechs as a game is being put together).

The other thing to fix via canon is that mediums just aren't nearly as agile (not fast as in top speed) as they should be. There is a fairly huge gap between even a raven and a Cicada in agility and they only weight 5 tons differently. Mediums need better agility in areas like acceleration, turning (torso and foot), etc. A Spider @ 30 tons accelerates like a rocket, but my equally high top speed Cicada takes nearly twice as long. That is a direct comparison in fights btw (With my 330XL X-5), a spider accelerates about twice as fast which makes keeping up with them hard even though our top speed is comparable. It also turns quicker and their torso turn at least looks faster (it's hard to compare that when I play my spiders over my cicadas). Their shouldn't be such a large gap.

One last fix is that the internals of lights (less so with hit issues still in effect) and mediums needs to increase in durability. Internally a Assault should not be that different from a Medium. The assaults 'guts' may weight more, but shouldn't be any more durable. Mediums especially need to stop being one stop targets for assaults. Armor values don't really need to change, I'm ok with taking a crippling single hit from an assault (or even a combined strike from a lance assorted mechs) that destroys my armor in the process. I'm not so ok with a single strike that has me fall over dead.

[MustrumRidcully]

hammerreborn, on 16 July 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Why would this help? And how do you suppose a mech have speed/maneuverability while also using more weapons? It is a choice between one or the other.

The game already has a too many weapon problem, I'm not sure how making it worse would help

The Hunchback is not exactly the fastest of the mediums, but the 9P can definitely stack on 9 medium lasers and get okay speed out of it.

The problem is that there are not really enough weapon variability out there to really create interesting options with more hard points. There aren't any low weight ballistics other than the MG, and the MG is not a good weapon and will probably never be if it stays a weapon without cooldown.

So more hard points on medium seems to boil down to "yet another medium laser boat". We don't really need many variants for this, one or two are sufficient.

Then you might take missiles - but you don't need many hard points to fill your weight worth of missile, though I see at least some potential stilll there - a medium with 4 missile slots might be interesting.

[hammerreborn]

Bagheera, on 19 July 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

Don't make me laugh. The Treb should have been the missile medium, but because it was released when SRMs did 2.5 dmg each missile with a broken splash damage multiplier PGI nerfed it into the ******* ground by not giving it the number of launchers it should have. 5J with 1 missile hardpoint is a slap in the face when compared to the hunchie 4J. 5N is a worthless joke with only 1 hardpoint in each missile location, and the 3C barely fares better. 7M gets a NARC slot, big freaking deal.

The Cent-A still stands as the premiere missile medium, which is pretty damn sad since it appears to have 1 launcher, but gets 3 hardpoints.

Basically they saw what people could do with a TBT when SRMs were a broken mess and nerfed it into the ground. After SRMs got their nerf, the TBT became essentially pointless. I suppose you could run LRMS in it, but why? Hunchies and the Cent-A do that better and with either a smaller profile (hunchie) or broken hit-box-shoulder-armor-from-heck (cents). And let's be honest here. Most of the people interested in LRMS aren't going to tap a medium for this role anyway. That tends to be the domain of Catapults and larger.

I already admitted being wrong =P

And it doesn't matter in the end, you can add a million hardpoints to mediums but it still won't stop them from getting gunned down prior to being able to use them. The downrange fire needs to be curtailed (such as the effect with heat scale that we are starting to see), and the movement uprange needs to be increased (which hopefully will be addressed with the seismic nerf and the introduction of the flea/locust/masc).

The seismic nerf + ppc heat increase should lead for interesting results on the 30th for being able to get into brawler (srm + medium laser) range of the big guys again.

Edited by hammerreborn, 19 July 2013 - 07:52 AM.

[Kaldor]

Murzao, on 19 July 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

I've ran Centurions almost exclusively (95% of games played) since the game came out....I have 7 in my mechbay


....and never have I felt like the Cents needed to be smaller...ever. What needs fixing is airstrike/artillery. Spending resources remodelling mechs is not the answer.

/golfclap

Spending resources fixing something that doesnt and shouldnt effect the outcome of a game is a waste of time. Oh wait, maybe they should quadruple the damage and double the area covered and its MC only that way we can have "gold rounds" like WoT....

I can name half a dozen mechs that need their models changed. Changing the model sizes would help them survive. Just because you own 7 Cents, and that is what you primarily play, doesn't mean you are correct. It just means you have a different outlook on it than most people because you are successful (Im assuming) in them.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Cent's are messy because of how damage transfers from the right and left torso to the center torso after they are destroyed.

They are like the Spider where the model is messed up.

The problem is, if you try to run an XL in a Cent, then the giant model works against you.

It's stupid and arbitrary as is all of the model work they do.

[Murzao]

Kaldor, on 19 July 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

/golfclap

Spending resources fixing something that doesnt and shouldnt effect the outcome of a game is a waste of time. Oh wait, maybe they should quadruple the damage and double the area covered and its MC only that way we can have "gold rounds" like WoT....

I can name half a dozen mechs that need their models changed. Changing the model sizes would help them survive. Just because you own 7 Cents, and that is what you primarily play, doesn't mean you are correct. It just means you have a different outlook on it than most people because you are successful (Im assuming) in them.

Other than the Spider (that like the Raven) that needs their hitboxes tweaked to the size of a Commando....tweaking mech sizes isn't gonna help much as people will just aim lower. Might as well fix Awesomes/Dragons/Pults too......still though why bother if you make the game faster those deficiencies become a lot smaller in magnitude. When you miss it's because they're going fast....not because they were 4m tall instead of 5m.


If seismic only had a 50m range it'd be useless too....that's what artillery/airstrike are currently at. Remove the canister at the very least....bump up the power by a small bit. Right now that smoke bomb canister should only be used in a separate module as a defensive tool to advance and make it 5X bigger radius area......then you have 3 more modules that actually do something.

Edited by Murzao, 19 July 2013 - 08:15 AM.

[PEEFsmash]

No. None of this would help. They already max their tonnage with the hardpoints they have. That is not their limitation. There are SRM boats (9A), Laser boats (4P/1X), and mixes (4SP). The medium class actually has quite good HPs. The problem is that they are too slow, and Seismic is too effective to let them do their business better than a heavy brawler.

[Monky]

Hardpoints are not the problem, ENGINE SIZES ARE.

This has been said and explained in detail many times.

If your mediums are only as fast as your heavies, the heavies have the advantage because they have more weight spare for bigger guns, and can use XL's with no penalty to survivability (aside from perhaps poor hitboxes).

Mediums simply do not have the weight for either;
A: More guns
B: More Ammo
C: More heatsinks

about the only thing they really benefit from (ask Cicada Garth who has said it himself) is engine speed - a few rating points on a medium can mean 20% manueverability.

Edited by Monky, 19 July 2013 - 08:26 AM.