91 replies to this topic

[Shadey99]

OuttaAmmo NoWai, on 21 July 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

They need fixing. I smacked one at point-blank range (while it was powered down) with 2 alpha strikes of 2xERPPC and 1xgauss (a total of 70 damage to its CT) for a grand total of...wait for it...

0 damage. It didn't even allocate doe to hit detection.

That isn't Spider specific, that is something up with that person. Trust me I've gotten whacked by just such a combo while moving today in a Spider... After all 2xPPC+Gauss is the most common weapon config these days. Spiders just make things like 'lag shields' worse. I don't lag, or I don't get this shield... xD

[OuttaAmmo NoWai]

Shadey99, on 21 July 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

That isn't Spider specific, that is something up with that person. Trust me I've gotten whacked by just such a combo while moving today in a Spider... After all 2xPPC+Gauss is the most common weapon config these days. Spiders just make things like 'lag shields' worse. I don't lag, or I don't get this shield... xD

Normally, I'd agree with you, but my ping is anywhere from 40-70 and I checked the spider pilot's ping and it was only 86...so I don't think severe lag was the issue

[Shadey99]

No idea then. I certainly can't survive a shutdown 2xPPC+Gauss alpha in any of mine.... xD

Moving... maybe... Really fast mechs seem to be able to move fast enough to often roll damage across multiple armor points... even with PPC's or Gauss... But that isn't this obviously. Maybe he had a massive burst of lag? The 'ping tool' in this game leaves alot to be desired sadly as it only seems to update every so often and so it smooths out an uneven connection from showing as such.

Given my day job I know only to well how chaotic a standard TCP/IP packet route works...

[Jaranath]

They take damage...they just don't always take all of it. And apparently, in some cases, any of it. I've been noticing this for a good while now. Had a couple duels today with somewhat less-speedy spiders in which I could very easily track my shot placement on a single torso section (close range, 6 SPL, watching the splashes on the Spider's body, well-focused). They took a little damage, but only a little. Maybe 20%.

I'm sure they're aware of the problem...but yeah, while it may be inconsistent, Spiders seem to have the problem in spades.

[Lyoto Machida]

Well, you guys settled it. After reading this thread, I'm off to buy a Spider now...

BigJim, on 19 July 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

Haha, I know what you mean.

In random pug drops I'll often follow a spider through obvious kiting attempts in order to kill him - I know that with my Streak/BAP Jenner he's running, I know he's going to try & run me through his team - I know all this, and honestly I don't care as long as he dies.
I just want him dead, even if it costs half my armour & means I have to play really coy for the rest of the match.

For being so bugged I have a deeply ingrained and (ir)rational hatred of spiders and all who sail in them.

The irony of all this? You're in a unit called...wait for it..."Wolf Spiders."

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

I may be mistaken, but I think I remember reading--back when the PPC-as-a-counter-to-ECM feature came in--that glancing blows / near misses would affect ECM. I wonder if this is what some of us are seeing ... the armor on the paper doll flash as a PPC or other projectile strikes a glancing blow.

For hit scan weapons (lasers), unless the little pest is stopped, I count myself lucky to get 50% of max damage (unless I happen to be the driving little pest that took full damage from lasers, then I was doing something wrong).

That doesn't account for everything ... if hit-state-rewind is working, if you see a clean hit on a stopped or slow mech up close, it should cause damage.

Edited by Kageru Ikazuchi, 21 July 2013 - 05:09 PM.

[TehSBGX]

They have immensly bugged hitboxes. Seriously I've hit them four times with 12 srms each salvo straight to the chest and they don't die. Triple srm 4's should never take that many salvos to down a sipder point blank.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

TehSBGX, on 21 July 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

They have immensly bugged hitboxes. Seriously I've hit them four times with 12 srms each salvo straight to the chest and they don't die. Triple srm 4's should never take that many salvos to down a sipder point blank.

SRMs are a bad way to judge a 'mechs hit boxes ... even a close range, they spread over 2-3 torso sections and and arm or two of an Atlas, but ...

A well-built spider probably has about 20 points of armor on each front side torso, 30 points of armor on the front CT, and 20 points on each arm ... internal structure hit points: LA: 20, LT: 28, CT: 40, RT: 28, RA: 20 (not including 18 armor and 18 internal for the cockpit, and not including rear armor at all)

Assuming your SRMs work like mine do (average about 2.3 damage per hit, after the most recent patch), the total damage you could do with 4x12 SRMs is about 110 ... the total health for armor and internals is 246.

48 SRMs should definitely hurt a Spider ... maybe even kill it ... but yeah, it should take at least that much area damage to take down a spider.

Multiple volleys to the same section from projectile weapons, though ... that is a different matter.

[One Medic Army]

In the interests of full disclosure I've noticed that my Jenner seems to be mostly unaffected by SRMs. I am unsure if this is the general aiming skills of opponents, or a technical issue.

Which is weird, since I pack 2xSRM4s and I have no issues hitting other light mechs (apart from spiders/commandos). I've killed plenty of other Jenners, Ravens, and Cicadas with my SRMs.

My ping is generally 90-100 range.

[Theronlas]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 21 July 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

SRMs are a bad way to judge a 'mechs hit boxes ... even a close range, they spread over 2-3 torso sections and and arm or two of an Atlas, but ...

A well-built spider probably has about 20 points of armor on each front side torso, 30 points of armor on the front CT, and 20 points on each arm ... internal structure hit points: LA: 20, LT: 28, CT: 40, RT: 28, RA: 20 (not including 18 armor and 18 internal for the cockpit, and not including rear armor at all)

That's fine, but when you fire 3x SRM6 at a stationary spider you expect to see SOME damage, half the time you dont. That is what ****** people off. For me it is about 50/50 AFAIK, half the time you fire the alpha and the spider goes boom, the other half (stationary mech, shutdown or stuck on terrain) you get nothing.

[Lynx7725]

Uh guys, you are aware PGI already acknowledged there's a hit detection problem especially noticeable with lights, right?

Quote

Many of you have cited hit detection errors. We’re seeing this as well. While it happens across almost all Mechs, it’s most noticeable with small Mech chassis. Bumping damage is going to help deal a small amount more damage to small Mechs, but the larger Mechs are going to be destroyed VERY quickly. We are investigating the root cause of these detection errors but it’s a deep problem. We need to find out if it’s in HSR (host state rewind) or is it in the simulation running on the server etc etc. Once found we will be pouring heavy resources on to the problem to fix it ASAP. However, I can tell you this, it’s going to take a while to find due to its complexity.

From here: http://mwomercs.com/...general-update/

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Theronlas, on 21 July 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

That's fine, but when you fire 3x SRM6 at a stationary spider you expect to see SOME damage, half the time you dont. That is what ****** people off. For me it is about 50/50 AFAIK, half the time you fire the alpha and the spider goes boom, the other half (stationary mech, shutdown or stuck on terrain) you get nothing.

Concur.

Usually, when I'm in a dance (I was going to call it a brawl, but that just didn't seem right) with a spider, I'm focusing more on dodging / twisting, and then lining up my next shot rather than watching his paper doll flash, change colors, register damage, etc. The only time I slow down my thoughts enough to think "wow, that hit and didn't do nearly the damage it should have" is when I'm spectating or watching a stream ... and most of the time people gripe about hit detection, it looks like they probably just missed.

Now, I'm not saying that happened to you, but with an SRM-6, I don't think it's reasonable to expect all of the missiles to hit, unless the spider was stationary 10m in front of you ... if that was the case, he deserved to die.

And, yes, I know about the report from the Devs ... but it is fun to discuss how the game works (or doesn't). Hopefully, the Devs are aware of the things we observe and can either explain them or fix them.

[PanzerFurrry]

What's with "shoot your teammate Spider in the back at the beginning of the match" lately?
Yesterday I've been cored twice in one night from my teammate, for a reason "I hate spiders, lol". And according to chat from other teammates, this is quite a common occurrence in a lot of matches.

Seriously, this has to stop.

[Lynx7725]

PanzerFurrry, on 21 July 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

What's with "shoot your teammate Spider in the back at the beginning of the match" lately?
Yesterday I've been cored twice in one night from my teammate, for a reason "I hate spiders, lol". And according to chat from other teammates, this is quite a common occurrence in a lot of matches.

Seriously, this has to stop.

To demonstrate how bad a problem this Spider hate is, my first instinct is to cheer for the TKer. My second is to say "***** TKer".

To add to the feedback though, it's not so much the build, as troublesome as it is. It's more about the attitude of some of the Spider pilots, in that even in the face of not-winnable games (e.g., opposite team has enough mechs to go on both base caps, AND competent lights to chase the Spider), the Spider pilot still insist on dragging the game out, sometimes by running away and shutting down in some hidey hole.

Nobody minds the Spider pilot who recognize that he is just dragging things out and commits to a suicide glory rush -- I thank those really. But those that just drag things out for the sake of dragging things out? Annoying and happens enough to add to the hate.

[BigJim]

Lyoto Machida, on 21 July 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

The irony of all this? You're in a unit called...wait for it..."Wolf Spiders."

Yup - It is not lost on me..

Lynx7725, on 21 July 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

Uh guys, you are aware PGI already acknowledged there's a hit detection problem especially noticeable with lights, right?

The Spider issue is over and above that though - Similar to the Raven's leg hitbox issue, that existed at the same time as the general lag-shield issue did.
So not only were Ravens lagshielded, but they also took less damage to the legs than they should - So it is now with the Spider, only all over, and worse.

Anyone who runs a Raven, Jenner or Commando can assure you that being hit, and hitting other lights is in a totally different league to Spiders. It's easy to hit lights, has been ever since HSR (ping compensation).

Get into a Jenner-vs-Spider duel and you'll see it illustrated beautifully - it takes easily 5x times longer to leg a spider, even if all your shots are on target than it does to leg an atlas.
It's not lag, it's not missing, it's simply not taking the damage that is being applied to it.

Finally consider - If Spiders were not bugged, then Spider pilots would not pilot Spiders. Simple-as.

Edited by BigJim, 22 July 2013 - 04:25 AM.

[Blackfoot]

I play my spider 5d lots and lots.

And I die lots and lots. Most of the time I'm not one of the last people standing even.

I've also killed lots and lots of them.

So I don't know what folks are talking about on these forums when they say spiders are impossible to kill.

No wonder PGI does not listen to their own community.

[BigJim]

Blackfoot, on 22 July 2013 - 04:28 AM, said:

I've also killed lots and lots of them.

So I don't know what folks are talking about on these forums when they say spiders are impossible to kill.

No wonder PGI does not listen to their own community.

Nobody says they're impossible to kill.
The issue is, they don't take damage properly.

So you might hit it with 20pts of damage (for instance), and it might only receive 5pts of damage (for instance).
This is illustrated by the times when you hit a Spider with an AC20 and it's armour only turns light yellow.


Similarly, it can take a solid 5 minutes of chasing a spider around the map with my Jenner-F, hitting his legs with every shot before he actually gets legged, when only 3 or 4 shots would leg a Raven, 'Cada, Commando or another Jenner.
Spiders are easy to hit. They're not hard to see, and don't move that fast - Just like all lights. They just don't take the damage.




The reason you're dying is because you get cocky, the same way lagshielded lights would die back when they had a lagsheild - Not taking damage properly leads one to take risks, and even within a single match - even within a single minute of that match - enough people can hit you so that eventually the damage gods will allow you to take enough damage to die if you're taking risks.

Edited by BigJim, 22 July 2013 - 04:43 AM.

[Valore]

In my 733c Highlander, killed 5 mechs, Highlander, 2 Catapults, Jager and a Spider.

I think it says something that the Spider caused me the most grief. And I only killed him because the ***** thought it would be funny running around me, while my SRMs and AC20 shots magically did nothing, not realising I had an LRM boat on my team with 2 LRM20s and 2 LRM15s. One volley stripped him bare, and my vastly reduced damage SRM salvo was still enough to kill him.

[Skyfaller]

There is an issue with damage allocation but not with hit detection. That is merely player perception.

For example:

Player perception: 'I shot it with 2 PPC and 1 Gauss when it was standing still and it didn't die!' (35 damage).

Reality: The PPC in each arm flew past the spider's shoulders missing and the gauss in the torso section actually hit.

--- I actually had a player whine to high heaven the other night when he found my spider perched on a cliff in tourmaline. My back was to him and he claims he stopped his mech and fired his four PPCs (two ERs to PPCs) aimed at my backside.

What he saw: four balls of lightning hitting my back side, spark-impact animation... and my spider was alive but the rear armor was gone ...my rear CT internal had no damage.

What I saw: I was TAG'ing a target 600m away from my perch for an lrm boat when all the sudden I see two PPC streak right past my cockpit to either side from behind and of course, damage impact audio. My rear armor was exactly 20 and so I know I did get hit with 2 PPCs. The other 2 PPC bolts just MISSED.

but from the PPC boater's view, all 4 ppc rounds flew into the same location. The impact spark animation made him believe all 4 hit. This was a PPC stalker that shot me... and he had 2 PPCs in the LT/RT and 2 in the arms. My best guess is that he aimed at some point in the nape of my spider's neck and only the torso PPCs hit (being lower) while the arm ppcs (being higher) whizzed past my head.

Player perception: 'I hit it with 4 SRM6's and it did not take damage!'

Reality: SRMs fire in a spread (even with artemis) which narrows down at the aimpoint's range when it was clicked to fire. A moving spider goes over 100kph. Spider gets hit by one maybe 2 missiles in the SRM volley, the rest miss. They also fire at different times in most mechs (open missile doors timer...or they put an SRM6 in a 2-tube launcher so it fires 3 volleys).

Player perception: 'I hit it constantly with six medium lasers and it just would not die!!!!'

Reality: Spider is moving at 100kph+ and certainly laterally to you. Lasers 'lase' for 1 second and deliver their damage in packet bursts. Due to the spider's small size you are missing with the lasers more than 90% of that 1second lase duration. The few packets of lase damage that do hit are spread through the armor of the spider. In the end, those 6 mediums may end up doing less than 4 damage per alpha shot...4 damage spread all over.

There IS a bug in all mech's damage detection however...and it is much more noticeable in light mechs like the spider and commando. The damage is spread between two different armor+internal locations. You hit a commando in the rear armor and his front armor will also blink. That means a medium laser's damage ends up doing something like 3 damage to rear armor, 2dmg to frontal armor. It is very irritating.

[Kiiyor]

Ph30nix, on 17 July 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

is omg holy wtf high....

just bought the 5k because i dont know why but the 4 MG 1 ML build sounded fun to me lol (it has been)

but holy **** i cant show my face to the enemy team without at least 4-5 of them trying to chase me down and i dont mean
"oh look a SPider lets shoot at it till it runs away"
or even
"i better chase this spider for a bit"

no i mean

" FROM HELLS HEART I STAB AT THEE!!!!!"

they will NOT stop chasing me ive ran thru my team and still have people trying to focus on em and follow me.

why do people hate spiders that much?

It's not hate. It's a biological urge to either crush things smaller and ... skitterier than you, or to obtain awesome stuff. It's like women and shoes. It's like guys and awesome toys ("Talking toaster? I MUST HAVE IT"). It's like magpies and anything shiny, or fat people and cookies. It's that lone fly in your bedroom at night, that only annoys you every now and again, but OH MY GOD IT'S WATCHING ME SLEEP I MUST END IT. It's the irrational urge you get to kick a midget, just to see how far they would go. Horrible? Yes... but science.

It takes supreme willpower to avoid temptation.

Take this great speech:

Teddy Roosevelt said:

"Of course, in one sense, the first essential for a man’s being a good citizen is his possession of the home virtues of which we think when we call a man by the emphatic adjective of manly. No man can be a good citizen who is not a good husband and a good father, who is not honest in his dealings with other men and women, faithful to his friends and fearless in the presence of his foes, who has not got a sound heart, a sound mind, and a sound body; exactly as no amount of attention to civil duties will save a - OOOH! Spider! Jenner! Smite them my brothers! SMITE THE PATRIOTIC BAJEEZUS OUT OF THEM!"