23 replies to this topic

[Maerawn]

The biggest problem i see with brawlers is they usually get picked off by ppc's and erppc's before they can close range to get to the snipers. Now this in and of itself isnt a problem the damage variance is correct, a sniper should be able to hit at long range with great accuracy, while brawlers should own short ranges <500m.

The issue comes when these intensive damage kingpin weapons are still able to do that damage at <300m, the brawlers bread and butter ranges.

now the fix is simple as minimum range on a weapon. This is not unheard of as the lrm has a minimum range of 180m, which was increased from 90m, because of the op overlap of LRM and SRM systems.

If you extend the minimum effective range of the PPC to 350m instead of 90m you would force snipers to be snipers and attempt to remain at distance. The worst thing for a sniper in a true battle is getting jumped by an enemy, and not being able to use your main weapon. In real life i doubt a sniper would use or be able to us a barrett 50 cal at a range of 15m, but would resort to a less powerful side arm. In the case of a sniping mech, the PPC should not be able to be used, or cumbersome to use at close ranges and the mechs "side arm" would be something like a ML or MPL.

To address the ERPPC, which has no minimum range, you could do one of two things or maybe even both.

1: Increase the heat dissipation of the weapon system to be dependent one the range it is fired at. (not sure if this is even able to be coded) If the closer the pilot fires the weapon to max range it creates less heat then if the pilot fires at half range. The logic behind this would be that the capacitors of the PPC would not need to use all the energy in the coils to fire the particles at half the recommended range therefore holding the heat generated in the weapon longer, then if all energy was used to fire.

2: have a reverse slope to ERPPC damage. With most weapons there is a drop off in damage dealt as the projectile reached max range, ie the autocannon decreases to 0 damage in a linear fashion as it approaches max range. I propose the opposite be true for the ERPPC. This would mean that the ERPPC has a damage curve that, instead of starting at max damage, it increases linearly until max damage is achieved at 250m. Which would allow the ERPPC to be semi-effective in a brawl but not overpoweringly so.

By doing this to these two weapons systems, you would be one step closer to bringing brawling back into the game, and making mediums worth taking into battle again since they would have an area to excel in with the heavier armor and load outs then the lights while maintaining some semblence of mobility.




EDIT:

First i would like to say thanks for responding to this thread but please do not highjack it as a convergence, L2P, PPC hate thread.

I have no problem with the damage that a PPC or ERPPC does, i dont even have a problem with boating them. I think they are spot on. The only thing i am saying is that a "sniping" weapon should not be favorable over a brawling weapon at brawling ranges.

So basically the thread is about the effective range of a weapon and not the damage or convergence or noobness of the weapon or pilot.

Edited by Maerawn, 18 July 2013 - 01:53 PM.

[Aeten]

PPC OP OMG!!!!!

Ever tried large lasers? Great range, great damage, easy to aim at short ranges and at fast mechs, lower weight and slots than PPC. Just take a chill pill the game is not so bad (and if it is stop playing)

[pencilboom]

Aeten, on 17 July 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

PPC OP OMG!!!!!

Ever tried large lasers? Great range, great damage, easy to aim at short ranges and at fast mechs, lower weight and slots than PPC. Just take a chill pill the game is not so bad (and if it is stop playing)

you know why people doesn't seem to gripe about large laser much? because it's a DOT weapon. which means it's easier to torso twist and spread the damage during the duration

[Ph30nix]

easiest way to balance sniping power is too....


teach people to not walk out into the open while walking face first into the enemy and learn to use cover and flank instead.


oh wait thats not easy because people are complete morons.

[El Bandito]

Easiest (note: I said easiest, not best) way to balance sniping is to increase cooldown of PPCs and Gauss.

Make them 5-6 seconds.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 July 2013 - 06:45 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Aeten, on 17 July 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

PPC OP OMG!!!!!

Ever tried large lasers? Great range, great damage, easy to aim at short ranges and at fast mechs, lower weight and slots than PPC. Just take a chill pill the game is not so bad (and if it is stop playing)

Good Range, Good Damage but great... I wouldn't say that.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 July 2013 - 06:43 PM.

[Flying Blind]

Being that this is a team game maybe there's room for a role other than brawler and sniper ... Now what might we call these other roles? How about "scout" a very fast sneaky mech to find the enemy location, "skirmisher" fast mech usually medium weight class with just enough fire it can't be ignored (thanks to SRMs @2.0 damage) that slips in and disrupts the snipers fire long enough for the brawlers to get into range, and lastly, "LRM support" which send missiles after the sniper any time he dares to poke his head out. Of course the other team will have their scouts, skirmishers, brawlers, and LRM support too and we'll all do this big dance of death to see who does their job best. Remember when we had ROLE WARFARE? Remember when it was a PILLAR of the game, remember when we hadn't spent so much time suffering under the dominance of one role or the other that we didn't immediately assume we needed to come up with oddly contrived mechanisms to lock one role out of power and flexibility so the other roles could live and breathe? I do, but it has been a long while and the memory fades a bit.

TLDR: no, this is a bad idea as it will cripple a role we still need. We should focus on making all roles good and not cycling nerfs and buffs so the role on top changes.

[Nubsternator]

Ph30nix, on 17 July 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

easiest way to balance sniping power is too....


teach people to not walk out into the open while walking face first into the enemy and learn to use cover and flank instead.


oh wait thats not easy because people are complete morons.

That doesn't matter when the moment you peek over a hill you get shot by PPCs and Gauss Rifles. You can use the "get smarter" card, but that means nothing when you take major damage to one point on your mech in an instant. These weapons are just as powerful, if not more usable, than every brawling weapon we have available.

[Hythos]

When I see a 270m Brawler, SRM-6 Catapult or anything loaded heavily with ML, 2xAC/20's...

If I'm in a Jenner, I stay away.
If I am in a sniper-build of some sort, I take off their legs.

While "avoiding brawlers" is a partial L2P issue, it is not an alpha issue because I can chain-fire long-range weapons to hit legs. It is an issue of the pin-point targeting that we have. This will continue to exist, even if PPC's are nerfed into non-existence (by spreading damage like the LB10-X)... If this happens to PPC's, 2xGauss, 6xAC/2's, 3xAC/5Ultra, 2x2LargeLASERS will be all that snipers use.

Convergence change and/or more of a random damage-allocation is the only way out... which affects brawlers too. You would no longer do 4xML + 3xSRM-6 + AC/20 damage to pin-point locations.

Your cake is out of reach. By the time you finally obtain it, you will find that it has already spoiled.

[Donnie Silveray]

Hythos, on 18 July 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

Convergence change and/or more of a random damage-allocation is the only way out... which affects brawlers too. You would no longer do 4xML + 3xSRM-6 + AC/20 damage to pin-point locations.

And how exactly would you implement such a convergence change without being arbitrary and stupid, like pretty much the vast majority of ideas on the topic? Why should my mech, standing still, 0% heat, suffer inaccurate weapon fire just because of your rules? Why should I, having spent many good seconds aligning the right shot only to miss because of a random application of number or apply damage elsewhere? If I fire an AC20 into a Jenner's face, I want it on the CT, not the arm. If I focus all my medium lasers in one point and use skill to keep it lined up, I EXPECT it to deal damage there where I placed it. How would you, pray to god, implement a convergence change without pretty much ******* on every decent shooter in the game? I can accept my rapid firing of the AC2 possibly warrants some inaccuracy, and possibly firing off an AC20 causes vibrations (but since I only run 1 anyhow, it's moot), or running hot causes aiming issues, but there is no way in hell if I was in a 6 PPC stalker would I tolerate at least my arm weapon shots not hitting where I intended. I pilot an enhanced Atlas D with an almost stock loadout because I like it and I can deal over 70 damage instantly. Whether or not it hits the same location or not is dependent on my SKILL. If you want to nerf that, try me.

Edited by Donnie Silveray, 18 July 2013 - 05:35 AM.

[Lugh]

Nubsternator, on 18 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

That doesn't matter when the moment you peek over a hill you get shot by PPCs and Gauss Rifles. You can use the "get smarter" card, but that means nothing when you take major damage to one point on your mech in an instant. These weapons are just as powerful, if not more usable, than every brawling weapon we have available.

Why are you playing their game?

Peeking over a hill is something YOUR snipers should be doing not your brawlers and even they should do that rarely typically 'peeking over a hill ' is instant death when you have 4 + Mechs looking back at you and you go POP.

Locate the enemy by watching the fire overhead. Stay in Terrain as much as possible so you are not exposed to fire for more than a second or two. Close the distance.

[Mainhunter]

I disagree. Most maps have enough cover to overcome the distance between you and a sniper. It's only a lousy excuse because you preferring brawlers, or whatever.

[Ph30nix]

Nubsternator, on 18 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

That doesn't matter when the moment you peek over a hill you get shot by PPCs and Gauss Rifles. You can use the "get smarter" card, but that means nothing when you take major damage to one point on your mech in an instant. These weapons are just as powerful, if not more usable, than every brawling weapon we have available.

why are you peaking OVER The hill?

go around good sir go around. you should know the most common snipe positions for the maps, your job is to take the most covered way possible to get to those positions from behind cover NEVER poke your head over the tenches.

why do you think during WW2 the fields of france were littered with miles and miles of trenches zig zagging everywhere? because they knew if they peaked their head OVER them they would get it shot off. Many times they would prefer to dig a trench line as close to the enemy lines as possible before charging.

[Coolant]

The problem with this game is that you can alpha strike from range for the same alpha you can brawl. In MW4:Mercs you could easily get an alpha with a brawler build of a 100 or more (3 Ultra20's + Mediums or Streaks), but really the most you could snipe with would be maybe 6 Large Lasers (42 damage). I never jumpsniped and despised it, but never feared those that did because once I got into range there was NO WAY they could match firepower. And with PASSIVE radar (we need it in MWO) you could sneak up on the snipers.

[Maerawn]

First i would like to say thanks for responding to this thread but please do not highjack it as a convergence, L2P, PPC hate thread.

I have no problem with the damage that a PPC or ERPPC does. I think they are spot on. The only thing i am saying is that a "sniping" weapon should not be favorable over a brawling weapon at brawling ranges.

So basically the thread is about the effective range of a weapon and not the damage or convergence or noobness of the weapon or pilot.

[WALD]

As a long time sniper in many shooter type games my only problem is that this game should not be a sniper game. I don't play this game like a sniper because, in my opinion, it shouldn't be played as such. There are rarely any "one shot" kills, and I've been on a receiving headshot blast and I've dished one out for a quick kill but in any Mechwarrior game the word "sniper" just doesn't even register. People will always want to snipe it seems but if all they ever want to do is fight as far away as possible in a game where I would think you'd be more compelled to get closer and dish out some hurt than I'd say this is the wrong style of shooter for you. If you truly want to kill someone at range play Battlefield, that's where I go to satisfy my lust for 900+ meter kill shots.

[Joseph Mallan]

One match bring a Brawler the next a Sniper. Simple solution. Or mix up your payload so you can fire at extreme range and in close!

[Tombstoner]

Whats brawl range? is it very close range combat like a street fight. so its 100-200 meters. sorry OP but if you bring a knife to a brawl and I bring a Rifle. but you think i should only be able to use it as a club.... non sense.

you can close into brawler range easily on any map in the game. alpine being the hardest but doable.

Why are ppc's not considered brawler weapons?
What is a brawler weapon any ways.... something with a short range like a ML/ SRM.
so sniper weapons by default have a longer range then other weapons.

So a brawler weapon has a built in range disadvantage. Thus your asking for a short range disadvantage for a longer range weapon.

Unfortunately the difference between a sniper weapon and brawler weapons come down to accuracy. your real world example is accurate. The sniper would reach for a faster more mobile weapon. accuracy differences between weapons at short range is not important. its weight/speed, clip capacity and penetration/ stopping power.

This game cant simulate that level of detail. in fact its base design massively favors snipers. The TT rule set included much stronger to hit penalties that are present in MWO. pure sniper builds where penalized but remained effective once you closed range, but that took really one to 2 turns. brawlers really need to use terrain to combat snipers or be super fast.

The way range was ported over really gave massive range boosts to many weapons, but left the short and mediums alone. The damage drop off curve is absurd and again favors sniping. This i think is what need to be adjusted. if you want to snipe... you can but your doing 1 point of damge with 4 erppc' when your at <90% max range. then to 2 points @ 75% max range.from here increase it rapidly to full and brawl away.

Edited by Tombstoner, 18 July 2013 - 03:15 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Tombstoner, on 18 July 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

Whats brawl range? is it very close range combat like a street fight. so its 100-200 meters. sorry OP but if you bring a knife to a brawl and I bring a Rifle. but you think i should only be able to use it as a club.... non sense.

you can close into brawler range easily on any map in the game. alpine being the hardest but doable.

Why are ppc's not considered brawler weapons?
What is a brawler weapon any ways.... something with a short range like a ML/ SRM.
so sniper weapons by default have a longer range then other weapons.

So a brawler weapon has a built in range disadvantage. Thus your asking for a short range disadvantage for a longer range weapon.

Unfortunately the difference between a sniper weapon and brawler weapons come down to accuracy. your real world example is accurate. The sniper would reach for a faster more mobile weapon. accuracy differences between weapons at short range is not important. its weight, clip capacity and penetration/ stopping power.

This game cant simulate that level of detail. in fact its base design massively favors snipers. The TT rule set included much stronger to hit penalties that are present in MWO. pure sniper builds where penalized but remained effective once you closed range, but that took really one to 2 turns. brawlers really need to use terrain to combat snipers or be super fast.

The way range was ported over really gave massive range boosts to many weapons, but left the short and mediums alone. The damage drop of curve is absurd and again favors sniping. This i think is what need to be adjusted. if you want to snipe... you can but your doing 1 point of damge with 4 erppc' when your at <90% max range. then to 2 points @ 75% max range.from here increase it rapidly to full and brawl away.

For me, Brawling range starts at Large Laser Range. My Gauss is my ranged weapon.

[Maerawn]

Tombstoner, on 18 July 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

Whats brawl range? is it very close range combat like a street fight. so its 100-200 meters. sorry OP but if you bring a knife to a brawl and I bring a Rifle. but you think i should only be able to use it as a club.... non sense.

you can close into brawler range easily on any map in the game. alpine being the hardest but doable.

Why are ppc's not considered brawler weapons?
What is a brawler weapon any ways.... something with a short range like a ML/ SRM.
so sniper weapons by default have a longer range then other weapons.

So a brawler weapon has a built in range disadvantage. Thus your asking for a short range disadvantage for a longer range weapon.

Unfortunately the difference between a sniper weapon and brawler weapons come down to accuracy. your real world example is accurate. The sniper would reach for a faster more mobile weapon. accuracy differences between weapons at short range is not important. its weight/speed, clip capacity and penetration/ stopping power.

This game cant simulate that level of detail. in fact its base design massively favors snipers. The TT rule set included much stronger to hit penalties that are present in MWO. pure sniper builds where penalized but remained effective once you closed range, but that took really one to 2 turns. brawlers really need to use terrain to combat snipers or be super fast.

The way range was ported over really gave massive range boosts to many weapons, but left the short and mediums alone. The damage drop off curve is absurd and again favors sniping. This i think is what need to be adjusted. if you want to snipe... you can but your doing 1 point of damge with 4 erppc' when your at <90% max range. then to 2 points @ 75% max range.from here increase it rapidly to full and brawl away.

Brawling ranges are anything less then 500 meters, where ML, SRMs, AC/20's, get their kills. Also im not saying you cant bring a rifle to a knife fight, by all means do, but that rifle will be cumbersome to use when your getting stabbed, and would probably work better as a club. Thats the idea with the ERPPC, you can still use it at close range, but its not going to be as effective as a ML. I agree that it is possible to get into brawling range on every map, i just dont agree that those two weapon systems should be the be all end all of energy weapon based combat. If you have more then 1 energy hardpoint in a component whats the point of putting anything but a PPC in it other then weight? I just feel that this would go a way in helping make all energy weapon systems viable, thereby expanding the variety of loadouts per variant.