41 replies to this topic

[HammerSwarm]

ow that we have some of the unseen/reseen mechs I think we should talk about the Archer again. There have already been many threads on this topic. I searched and found pages of results. But the feelings have been mixed, "It's already in game and it's called the catapult", "It's unseen so we can't even talk about it or we'll be sued for thought crime" "Already enough missile mechs." And so forth.

I think that if people put some thought into what they say they would re-evaluate their positions and support the Archer for addition in the near future. I plan to lay out my case for the Archer, dispel some myths about why the archer shouldn't be added, and post some unique variants that are time line appropriate.

The body styling wouldn't be too hard to do as you could use many of the resources already in place for the dragon. You would just need to bulk the shoulders up to hold the missile launchers, and add flappy doors. The Archer and the Dragon share similar visual styles in the pictures on Sarna, so too could they here.

The Archer is a long range indirect fire support mech with good, but not great mobility. It's primary weapons are it's dual LRM 20s, and backs those up with medium lasers. The variants of this mech include dropping and adding missile racks and laser hard points to meet it's most current needs. They also include additional hard points for NARCs, and head lasers. This type of mech is needed in game to add a heavily armored mech with aim able arms as an indirect fire support heavy in the 70 ton range. The archer even includes an ECM custom variant with time appropriate equipment.

Catapults have draw back that the archer does not suffer from in order to have increased mobility and jump jets. Catapults at only 65 tons carry less ammo, and lack the lateral field of fire that comes from having arm mounted weapons. Quickdraws at only 60 tons carry lower armor, and are better suited to close range fighting where their troublesome profile and limited armor are less exposed to the dangers of the open field.

So what are some common arguments against the archer?

"it's unseen!" so are the Phoenix Hawk, Locust, Tunderbolt, and Battlemaster. This doesn't appear to be a problem that PGI can't solve.

"Its role is already covered by other mechs." False, there is not a mech with a similar profile, and all of the features above. It may not be the total deviation that a cataphract is from a catapult but they are dissimilar enough in function, movement, and weight that I think this deserves a shot.

Variants:
ARC - 2R
Weapons(Location): 2 LRM 20s (1 in each side torso), 4 medium lasers (1 each in each arm and each side torso)
Armor: 13 tons
Engine: 280
Special: N/A

ARC - 2S
Weapons(Location): 2 LRM 15s (1 in each side torso), 2 SRM 4s (1 in each side torso), 4 medium lasers (1 each in each arm and each side torso)
Armor: 13 tons
Engine: 280
Special: N/A

ARC - 5S
Weapons(Location): 2 LRM 15s (1 in each side torso), 2 SSRM 2s (1 in each side torso), 1 Narc (center Torso), 4 medium pulse lasers (2 each in each arm)
Armor: 13 tons
Engine: XL 280
Special: N/A

ARC - 4W (Archer Wolf)
Weapons(Location): 2 LRM 20s (1 in each side torso), 2 large lasers (1 each in each arm), 2 small pulse lasers (1 each in each arm)
Armor: 13 tons
Engine: 280
Special: Artimis, ECM, Case

I'd own 3 out of 4 of these. There are additional variants but you get the idea!
Also there is a Hero Variant custom built with the back story already written as it was piloted by Jaime Wolf!

ARC - 2W - Hero Mech painted in Red and Black with a wolf motif
Weapons(Location): 2 LRM 20s (1 in each side torso), 4 SRM 4s (2 each in each side), 2 medium lasers (1 each in each arm)
Armor: 10 tons
Engine: 280
Special: None

Additionally there is an FRR variant that isn't very different than the other variants but was specific to the FRR and could be added with community warfare to give that faction some additional equipment. Give people of a certain FRR faction level a price break.

In summary there are enough variants, and the role on the battle field of a 70 ton heavy second line mech with some close range defenses, and a long range punch isn't supported by the Catapult, Quickdraw, Dragon, or Cataphract. The Archer is an iconic and classic mech that is missing from the battlefield.

PGI fix this injustice! Add the Archer soon!

Edited by HammerSwarm, 23 July 2013 - 11:06 AM.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Copyright and legal hot water™


Edit: More specifically, all the Macross universe based mechs are entirely off the table as possibilities to come back. Isn't the archer one of them?

Edited by mwhighlander, 23 July 2013 - 11:03 AM.

[HammerSwarm]

mwhighlander, on 23 July 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Copyright and legal hot water™


Edit: More specifically, all the Macross universe based mechs are entirely off the table as possibilities to come back. Isn't the archer one of them?

It is but you could call it the the Arcus (Latin for Archery) and edit the art work, In my opinion if the dragon doesn't look like that specific macross machine then you could use a more dissimilar model for the archer. Unless the specific copyright held by the Macross people prevents the idea of a 70 ton indirect fire support mech with torso missiles and arm lasers, then PGI should be able to work around it.

[Hans Von Lohman]

HammerSwarm, on 23 July 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

"it's unseen!" so are the Phoenix Hawk, Locust, Tunderbolt, and Battlemaster. This doesn't appear to be a problem that PGI can't solve.

PGI fix this injustice! Add the Archer soon!

You don't fully understand the legal issues behind the scenes.

The original mechs for the game came from THREE different Japanese Cartoons.

The Crusher Joe and Dougram cartoons are now legal, as those two franchises are more or less dead and gone even in Japan.

However, Macross/RoboTech anime cartoons are still alive and well, making money for their owners. That means you cannot have an Archer.

The only "Unseen" mechs that have not been announced, but are from Crusher Joe and Dougram are the 55 ton Wolverine and Griffon. Ok, there is also the 50 ton Scorpion and 80 ton Goliath, but those two are four legged mechs, which PGI won't do because it would require a whole new set of animations and even programing to get quad mechs into the game, which isn't a priority right now.

So, just think Wolverine and Griffon. The rest of the Unseen are still Unseen.

[Belorion]

HammerSwarm, on 23 July 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

It is but you could call it the the Arcus (Latin for Archery) and edit the art work, In my opinion if the dragon doesn't look like that specific macross machine then you could use a more dissimilar model for the archer. Unless the specific copyright held by the Macross people prevents the idea of a 70 ton indirect fire support mech with torso missiles and arm lasers, then PGI should be able to work around it.

The name doesn't matter. PGI can make an Archer. The problem is entirely with the art. If they made the art too different the forums would riot. If they made it too similar they face having to defend their art in court.

With the PP mechs the chances of a court fight were much less than that of the big 12.

Russ said never say never, but don't hold your breath.

[Ngamok]

HammerSwarm, on 23 July 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

It is but you could call it the the Arcus (Latin for Archery) and edit the art work, In my opinion if the dragon doesn't look like that specific macross machine then you could use a more dissimilar model for the archer. Unless the specific copyright held by the Macross people prevents the idea of a 70 ton indirect fire support mech with torso missiles and arm lasers, then PGI should be able to work around it.

The problem becomes that people will still call it an Archer and HG will sue based on that. I am no attorney and cannot tell you if it's possible. But PGI would just avoid even attempting it altogether unless their legal team says there is no way HG can sue even if it's close.

[Native]

its not the name that is in dispute, but the art. the Archer in Macross is called the Spartain

the names in Macross for the Destroids, or Mechs are as follows:

Tomahawk = Warhammer
Spartain = Archer
Defender = Rifleman
Phalanx = Longbow
Monster = Beheamoth

oh.. forgot some...

the Tactical pod Glaug = Marauder
and the veritechs = Wasp, Phoenix Hawk and Stinger, Crusader, Valkyrie
The Tactical battle pod = the Ost mechs Ostroc, Ostol, and Ostscout

Edited by Native, 23 July 2013 - 11:58 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

HammerSwarm, on 23 July 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

It is but you could call it the the Arcus (Latin for Archery) and edit the art work, In my opinion if the dragon doesn't look like that specific macross machine then you could use a more dissimilar model for the archer. Unless the specific copyright held by the Macross people prevents the idea of a 70 ton indirect fire support mech with torso missiles and arm lasers, then PGI should be able to work around it.

eventhe name would be fine. HG cannot control the word "Archer"

[Bishop Steiner]

Native, on 23 July 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

its not the name that is in dispute, but the art. the Archer in Macross is called the Spartain

the names in Macross for the Destroids, or Mechs are as follows:

Tomahawk = Warhammer

Spartain = Archer

Defender = Rifleman

Phalanx = Longbow (hmmmmm... never have done the Longbow. I guess with the MW4 version, never felt a need. Might need to rectify that.)

Monster = Behemoth (this one is about laughable a connection, as are most of the OST series)

oh.. forgot some...

the Tactical pod Glaug = Marauder

and the veritechs = Wasp, Phoenix Hawk and Stinger, Crusader, Valkyrie
The Tactical battle pod = the Ost mechs Ostroc, Ostol, and Ostscout

ftfy

and it really is that easy to circumvent the issue. The hard part is that HG is apparently run by lawyers, has deep pockets somehow (hasn't done SQUAT since the 80s) and even if it got thrown out, the short term cost could be quite an issue for IGP to absorb.

Shame. Robotech was a huge part of my childhood. But Carl Maceck might have been one of the biggest douche's ever. Especially since FASA legally used those images.

[HammerSwarm]

The MBR-07-Mk II Spartan Main Battle Destroid looks a lot like a lot of things.



The MWO Dragon looks a lot like a lot of things. but if they are disimilar enough that PGI isn't getting sued, then anything is possible. Note the feet, the hands, the hips, the more pronounced nose, and expanded shoulders. If the archer were given this treatment and a name like, Arcus, Ballista, Long Bow, etc. etc. the important part isn't a specific name or stealing imagery from macross, the important part is the battle field role and the the availible tonage.

[Native]

ya.. I never got why the Ost mechs were associated with it... I mean their roundish, but they dont really look much like the battlepods
but the Behemoth does bear a striking resemblance to the Monster

[Steinar Bergstol]

Native, on 23 July 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

ya.. I never got why the Ost mechs were associated with it... I mean their roundish, but they dont really look much like the battlepods
but the Behemoth does bear a striking resemblance to the Monster

For the Ost mechs look at the legs. That's where the primary similarity with battlepods are. They're pretty much battlepod legs turned around so that they have humanoid legs rather than chickenwalker legs. That said I do agree. Calling the Osts a copy of a battlepod is a stretch at best, but it was apparently close enough for HG to react.

Edited by Steinar Bergstol, 23 July 2013 - 02:22 PM.

[Shadey99]

There is already new sanctioned art for the maruader:

So the argument against Macross originating mechs is certainly less clear than it had been. Obviously some people can redo these designs and release them in products. The image about was created and released as the cover art of a product in 2012.

[Hans Von Lohman]

They already tried re-seen Warhammer artwork in the Mechwarrior-5 trailer for that single player game that never got made.

That got them sued.

[Angel of Annihilation]

HammerSwarm, on 23 July 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

The MBR-07-Mk II Spartan Main Battle Destroid looks a lot like a lot of things.



The MWO Dragon looks a lot like a lot of things. but if they are disimilar enough that PGI isn't getting sued, then anything is possible. Note the feet, the hands, the hips, the more pronounced nose, and expanded shoulders. If the archer were given this treatment and a name like, Arcus, Ballista, Long Bow, etc. etc. the important part isn't a specific name or stealing imagery from macross, the important part is the battle field role and the the availible tonage.

The point I think everyone is missing isn't that they would be sued, it is that they could be sued. Harmony Gold is known for their agressive defensive of their artwork in direct relation to Battletech and Mechwarrior. Just to fact that they might be sued is enough to keep the Unseen mechs out of the game. Even if they were to win a lawsuit, PGI would still be facing spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees. It just isn't worth it to them to bring the Unseen in.

Shadey99, on 23 July 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

There is already new sanctioned art for the maruader:

So the argument against Macross originating mechs is certainly less clear than it had been. Obviously some people can redo these designs and release them in products. The image about was created and released as the cover art of a product in 2012.

THAT..is not a Marauder, not even close. Would rather not have it in game than to have something so dissimilar that it bears no resemblence to the actual mech.

[Shadey99]

Viktor Drake, on 23 July 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

THAT..is not a Marauder, not even close. Would rather not have it in game than to have something so dissimilar that it bears no resemblence to the actual mech.

I like the updated designs (The same artist has done Warhammer and Archer actually)... Though that is for a 3150ish Marauder. It looks better then the Bishop Steiners post in my opinion. That version is missing the ballistic center weapon mount though.

This picture has both Maruader and Warhammer for the earlier versions:



Though it is technically not official art like the other one (as it wasn't done for the company owning the license)...

His work though does cover the rifleman:


And the Archer:


So we are seeing, at least, some of the 'unseen' mechs being brought back in to official products with no law suits...

[Anjian]

Viktor Drake, on 23 July 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

The point I think everyone is missing isn't that they would be sued, it is that they could be sued. Harmony Gold is known for their agressive defensive of their artwork in direct relation to Battletech and Mechwarrior. Just to fact that they might be sued is enough to keep the Unseen mechs out of the game. Even if they were to win a lawsuit, PGI would still be facing spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees. It just isn't worth it to them to bring the Unseen in.



THAT..is not a Marauder, not even close. Would rather not have it in game than to have something so dissimilar that it bears no resemblence to the actual mech.

Sorry but it is. That artwork is based on the Project Phoenix Marauder which itself was based on the Mechwarrior Dark Age Marauder. In fact, it is canon. AND it has to have NO resemblence from the original mech in order to have no legal jurist doubt that it is original artwork, not a copy or derivation.



Now referring to the other posts. The Warhammer also has its Mechwarrior Dark Age version that is now part of the original Project Phoenix.


But with regards to the Archer and the Crusader, they didn't have neither Project Phoenix nor Mechwarrior Dark Age artwork.

Basing designs off from DA aka original Project Phoenix, could have provided a better umbrella from copyright issues. The Warhammer shown in the Mechwarrior 5 video still looks too much from the Macross artwork, hence vulnerability.

This is the DA Warhammer rendered by Primus from brickcommander.com.



For the Archer its going to take some serious redrawing. In order to pass the legal test without a doubt in the mind, to sufficiently clear all possible legal hooks, the new design is required to look significantly and substantially different from the original that there would be no doubt its original artwork.

The MWO Battlemaster took more cues from the DA Battlemaster than from the Dougram one. Note the torso weapons and the shoulder tank threads.

Edited by Anjian, 23 July 2013 - 06:17 PM.

[Anjian]

Hans Von Lohman, on 23 July 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

They already tried re-seen Warhammer artwork in the Mechwarrior-5 trailer for that single player game that never got made.

That got them sued.

Sorry but the artwork on the MW5 video hardly looks like a reseen.





The reseen one has considerably softer curves.

[Bishop Steiner]

Shadey99, on 23 July 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

I like the updated designs (The same artist has done Warhammer and Archer actually)... Though that is for a 3150ish Marauder. It looks better then the Bishop Steiners post in my opinion. That version is missing the ballistic center weapon mount though.

This picture has both Maruader and Warhammer for the earlier versions:



Though it is technically not official art like the other one (as it wasn't done for the company owning the license)...

His work though does cover the rifleman:


And the Archer:


So we are seeing, at least, some of the 'unseen' mechs being brought back in to official products with no law suits...

none of those are official ones either. And sadly Shimmering Swords Warhammer, Rifleman, MArauder and Archer all would fall under the lawsuit purview as they are so close to the original.

The point of my post was not art epeen, but to show that they could be designed in such a way as to get around the Lawyers. These do not do so.

Anjian, on 23 July 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

Sorry but it is. That artwork is based on the Project Phoenix Marauder which itself was based on the Mechwarrior Dark Age Marauder. In fact, it is canon. AND it has to have NO resemblence from the original mech in order to have no legal jurist doubt that it is original artwork, not a copy or derivation.



Now referring to the other posts. The Warhammer also has its Mechwarrior Dark Age version that is now part of the original Project Phoenix.


But with regards to the Archer and the Crusader, they didn't have neither Project Phoenix nor Mechwarrior Dark Age artwork.

Basing designs off from DA aka original Project Phoenix, could have provided a better umbrella from copyright issues. The Warhammer shown in the Mechwarrior 5 video still looks too much from the Macross artwork, hence vulnerability.

This is the DA Warhammer rendered by Primus from brickcommander.com.



For the Archer its going to take some serious redrawing. In order to pass the legal test without a doubt in the mind, to sufficiently clear all possible legal hooks, the new design is required to look significantly and substantially different from the original that there would be no doubt its original artwork.

The MWO Battlemaster took more cues from the DA Battlemaster than from the Dougram one. Note the torso weapons and the shoulder tank threads.

Anjian, on 23 July 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

Sorry but it is. That artwork is based on the Project Phoenix Marauder which itself was based on the Mechwarrior Dark Age Marauder. In fact, it is canon. AND it has to have NO resemblence from the original mech in order to have no legal jurist doubt that it is original artwork, not a copy or derivation.



Now referring to the other posts. The Warhammer also has its Mechwarrior Dark Age version that is now part of the original Project Phoenix.


But with regards to the Archer and the Crusader, they didn't have neither Project Phoenix nor Mechwarrior Dark Age artwork.

Basing designs off from DA aka original Project Phoenix, could have provided a better umbrella from copyright issues. The Warhammer shown in the Mechwarrior 5 video still looks too much from the Macross artwork, hence vulnerability.

This is the DA Warhammer rendered by Primus from brickcommander.com.



For the Archer its going to take some serious redrawing. In order to pass the legal test without a doubt in the mind, to sufficiently clear all possible legal hooks, the new design is required to look significantly and substantially different from the original that there would be no doubt its original artwork.

The MWO Battlemaster took more cues from the DA Battlemaster than from the Dougram one. Note the torso weapons and the shoulder tank threads.

that is a Warhammer IIC the Clan Assault Mech version. Awesome mech, but not a Warhammer, per se.

[Shadey99]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 July 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

none of those are official ones either. And sadly Shimmering Swords Warhammer, Rifleman, MArauder and Archer all would fall under the lawsuit purview as they are so close to the original.

Not specifically, though the earlier piece from Shimmering Sword of the Marauder is official from Shimmering Sword. It was commissioned and used by Catalyst Game Labs as cover art for their product: XTRO: Succession Wars ebook. You may have missed it, but SS has done a good number of pieces for Catalyst since last year... And I for one haven't heard about them being sued yet.

The other designs mostly predate the work for CGL, but since the Maurader was used, it is highly likely the could become official should some need be found for them.